69 mach 408w build

[69gmachine 15]

I don't believe mustangs came with a Door Ajar warning light, only the Cougar. I think Buckey means the quarter pillar lights and the lower dash lights, which turn on when you open the door

 

Ah Yes, I believe you are correct. I wonder why they would need a dedicated light given that the interior lights serve that purpose?

 

I looked at the 2 dash jewels and the one on the left says "BRAKE SYSTEM" and the one on the right says "SEAT BELTS".

 

I got my door latches with switches, door wiring harnesses and the under dash harness from a Cougar XR7. Trying to re-wire it for a Mustang has been a challenge to say the least!

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

I don't believe mustangs came with a Door Ajar warning light, only the Cougar. I think Buckey means the quarter pillar lights and the lower dash lights, which turn on when you open the door

 

yep, quarter pillar lights. thanks.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

here's a comparison of standard 1142 bulb (i believe unique to 69's?) compared to the 1142-CW45-T led.

 

i wanted a whiter light so i went with the cool white color. i would image the warm white option would have looked more stock.

 

specified current for the 1142-CW45-T bulb was 240mA. an 1142 is specified at 1.6A. my volt gauge dropped about 0.4V with the reverse lights on. it barely tickled with the replacements.

 

 

[Lemon Owner 11]

Wow what a difference, the led sure looks alot more modern when illumunated. I like it!

[Powershift 19]

Buckeye... I just did those LED bulbs in my Mach today. Like you said, hard to capture the accurate colors with the camera. But, they are more red than stock in person....

 

LED on left, stock 1157 bulb on the right

 

Both LED

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

i believe i have all the loose ends with the wiring finished up. everything seems to be working. only the headlights, front turn signals, door and license plate light haven't been tested. i don't think those will present any issues though.

 

these are the two switches i had put in the console. the one illuminated in red selects the function of the horn switch (horn or line lock). when illuminated the horn acts as the line lock control.

 

the green illuminated switch is the two step rev limiter enable switch. when illuminated the two step will activate with activation of the line lock.

 

 

i detuned the lighting in the two console gauges located just below the climate control switches because they were beyond bright. i ended up putting a 3.2k resistor in series with each of the illumination connections. i tried to upen up the gauge to see if i could replace the white with a blue but they don't open up (without breaking them anyways), so i just dimmed them down a lot. i left the two gauges located in the glove box section of the console alone.

 

i'm going to put a blue led bulb in the tach. i was experimenting with an extra green LED i had laying around. i detuned it as well with a 1.2k resistor.

 

the unused Seat Belt light in the dash illuminates whenever any one of the four console gauge warning lights are illuminated.

 

The yellow lamp is an Autometer mini shift light for the Line Lock indicator.

 

 

console glove box gauges not detuned...

 

 

I'm planning on installing the front and rear glass when my dad comes down this weekend.

 

My upholstery is in process with issues. A couple of weeks ago, TMI indicated there was a slice in the comfortweave and they needed another yard. In any case i was screwed, since i have no way to prove who's fault it was (i'm skeptical they may have made a wrong cut).

 

so i ordered another yard from SMS to ship to TMI. TMI contacts me last week telling me the color of the material received is considerably different. Turns out SMS straight up shipped the material in a different gloss. SMS was quick to rectify the situation. Who knows how long it will take to ship the right material...

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

a question came up today about driveline angles so it reminded me to do a quick check of where my car is now that it has some weight in it.

 

i'm fortunate to have machined transmission slip and pinion yokes which make measurement really easy.

 

i first put the gauge on the face of the slip yoke and zeroed the gauge.

 

 

i then moved the gauge down to the driveshaft and measured 0.2 degrees.

 

 

i then put the gauge on the face of the pinion yoke and zeroed the gauge.

 

 

i then moved the gauge down to the driveshaft and measured 1.1 degrees.

 

 

drawing out a diagram:

 

 

the u-joint working angle is thus 0.2 degrees and 1.1 degrees which is really low and in theory should be good to well above 7000 driveshaft RPM.

 

the working angles are opposite (just barely).

 

also good is the fact that under slight load the rear end would wrap upwards and decrease that 1.1 degrees.

 

at most i would put in a 0.5 degree shim to the rear end. that would put the rear u-joint working angle to around 0.6 degrees. however i would have to remeasure the front and rear since it would slightly change the driveshaft angle. i still don't have all the weight in the car, so i'll remeasure at some point.

[69gmachine 15]

Those are both very shallow angles, essentially 0.2 is a straight liine. From what I understand, without sufficient angle the needle bearing won't rotate causing premature failure.

[buening 63]

Those are both very shallow angles, essentially 0.2 is a straight liine. From what I understand, without sufficient angle the needle bearing won't rotate causing premature failure.

 

1° is the minimum angle recommended by many sources, Denny's Driveshaft among them. Buckeye is at 0.9°, but with more weight added to the car it should increase him to above the 1° threshold.

 

http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/frequently_asked_questions.html

 

How much driveline angle is right for my application?

Thats a loaded question. The best answer is....the least amount of driveline or u-joint angle is the best amount of angle. Try to achieve the least amount of u-joint angle but don't make it less than 1 degree. A little known fact about u-joints is that they require about 1 degree of operating angle to get the needle bearings rotating. If they do not rotate they will fail. Too much angle will also cause them to fail. The type of rear suspension also plays a big part in setting the angles as well as the engine/transmission angle. Leaf spring cars have a need for more downward pinion angle due to spring wrap-up while coil spring cars control the situation better. Hard acceleration as in the case of a drag race car requires a different setting than a street driven car. Traction bars, ladder bars, 4 links, independent rears all have special needs and requirements.

[69gmachine 15]

1° is the minimum angle recommended by many sources, Denny's Driveshaft among them. Buckeye is at 0.9°, but with more weight added to the car it should increase him to above the 1° threshold.

 

 

I think you are making an error in subtracting the rear working angle from the front. The front angle between the engine/trans and driveshaft is only 0.2 degrees. The engine and transmission mounts are fixed so this will only change as a result of the rear end moving up or down. It will not change significantly because the car is already loaded down with the engine and trans installed. There is no more significant weight to be added except for the driver. The needles in the forward U joint therefore will barely turn and will start getting hot. In the rear it seems a bit better, but when the pinion gear tries to climb the ring gear, at least a degree will be lost, resulting in a net operating angle of 0.1 degrees. That may back down when he's coasting, but whenever power is applied the angle will be less, not more.

Edited April 23, 2012 by 69gmachine
spelling

[buening 63]

You are correct, I was confusing driveline angle with operating angle. See page 8 for some good info (read rule 1) http://www2.dana.com/pdf/J3311-1-HVTSS.PDF

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

For the straight scoop, I called tech at Mark Williams (they made my driveshaft) and explained that I have 0.2 degrees and 1.1 degrees on the u-joints and if I was going to have problems. His first question was if the suspension was loaded or not. I indicated it was just sitting in the garage on the wheels.

 

He indicated that I really need to measure the angles with the suspension loaded. To do this, he recommended taking a picture of the car going down the track (pic from the side) and from that picture try to see how the car is sitting with respect to the wheels. If it appears the car is sitting up and additional 1†(i.e. looks like there is another inch between the wheel well lip and tire), then jack up the chassis 1†and then re-measure the u-joint angles.

 

He indicated for most power, each joint would be at 0 degrees.

 

Since in most cases it’s not feasible to get 0 degrees, he said for vibration reasons, the goal should be for the engine and pinion to be parallel (i.e. equal and opposite u-joint working angles).

 

 

His generally feeling for my weekend car being leaf springs w/caltracs that the setup was probably going to be pretty good since the axle will want to rotate up and reduce the rear u-joint axle. The cal tracs will work as a limiter to that travel he explained.

 

I stressed to him some were having heartburn over mine only having 0.2 degrees on one of the u-joints and resulting in failure (and that one of their tech sheets state to get at least 0.5 degrees).

 

He felt that wasn’t quite an accurate assessment. He doesn’t believe any issues will occur on the joint for mine if I only have 0.2 degrees. He said the suspension is continually moving causing the bearings to rotate.

 

However, he said if this car was a daily driver, he would consider putting around a degree on each joint.

 

 

i recall adding on the order of 0.5 to 0.75 degrees of engine angle when i went to the TKO. to first order it would appear the factory angle would have been on the order of 1 degree for the transmission side u-joint. I would speculate for those who don't use the drop engine mounts and also TKO crossmembers (like Modern Driveline) are probably dropping the engine angle on the order of an additional 3 degrees. That means the sign would have actually changed resulting in both engine and transmission being the same sign. But who knows because i haven't seen anyone publish any actual data...

 

http://www.markwilliams.com/driveshafttech.aspx

 

http://www.markwilliams.com/servicebull/sb0049.pdf

 

http://www.hurst-drivelines.com/files/Universal_Joint_Alignment_Proc_111606.pdf

[69gmachine 15]

Glad to hear it won't be a problem. No matter how hard I tried to make mine a daily driver, it's just almost impossible with these old cars, but I have taken it out for some very long trips. If that's not in the plan for you then you should have no worries. It's a beautiful build, can't wait to hear the driving report!

[Pittcrew 10]

Maybe I am missing something here. I have two drag cars, one a 10 second car and the other a 8 second car. I base my experience on those.

From what I gather here you have determined what your static driveshaft angles are with your car sitting in the garage and are basing u joint function on those measurements? Is that correct or did I misunderstand your statements and the follow up comments?

I understand there are optimal angles to achieve but I believe they are within a range.

A car in motion exhibits dynamic suspension movement and the angles are constantly changing. Fuel load, road surface , power application, spring rating, shock adjustments and driver weight all contribute to these changes. I agree with what the guy from Mark Williams said, you would need to determine where you were under the operating conditions you were going to experience. While that sounds good you would need some sort of data logging in the rear suspension to determine where you are at that time. The measurements you have sitting in your garage are useful in determining weather you are outside of that range in that condition but not hard numbers you will be experiencing driving.

A drag car at launch has different angles than at the top end. I run solid mounts but a car with soft mounts will exhibit some movement at the tail shaft. Before experiencing u joint failure at a given angle I agree with the comment that the joint would have to be at that angle for a given dwell of time and as the suspension is always moving I don't think that it would be there long. You may experience a situation where in the range of suspension motion the angles travel in and out of the red zone.

I use Mark Williams Driveshafts(with Timken ujoints),Axles and 3rd members in my cars and have had no problems at all and no signs of wear.

IMO they are high quality pieces.

[69gmachine 15]

Maybe I am missing something here. I have two drag cars, one a 10 second car and the other a 8 second car. I base my experience on those.

I understand there are optimal angles to achieve but I believe they are within a range.

 

The upper limit is dependant on driveshaft RPM (the greater the angle the lower the RPM limit), and the lower limit varies by source but is typically from .5 to 1 degree of sustained operating angle. The back joint will see much more variation than the front joint will (especially in our leaf sprung cars).

 

Drag racing in 8 to 10 second bursts is such a short duration they will never get hot in the first place.

 

If you drove on a long straight stretch of road for hours at a time (which I have in my Mach 1) with little or no rotation of the needle bearings, it would eventually kill the bearings.

 

I use Mark Williams Driveshafts(with Timken ujoints),Axles and 3rd members in my cars and have had no problems at all and no signs of wear.

IMO they are high quality pieces.

There was never any question about the quality of components used and unless you have the same front u-joint workng angle, then it's a meaningless comparison anyway.

[Pittcrew 10]

Thanks for the clarification.

A few last questions so I understand, even at a shallow angle if there is a load against the needles why wont they turn? And if they are not turning then where is the friction causing the heat to burn up the joint coming from? Because if there was friction then wouldnt the needles be turning? I agree that if there was no rotation of the needles they would fail but due to aerodynamic drag or elevation changes I would think the load would cause the needles to turn some. Is this not the case?

I only ask because I have never experienced U joint failure or vibration due to an angular issue except when I folded the pads over on my 9 inch and sent the pinion angle radically positive during a launch. But that is not what we are talking about here.

This is scenario being discussed is a new thing to me.

I agree there was not a question of the quality of the MW parts I was just confirming they are a good piece.

Thanks for the information.

[69gmachine 15]

Most u-joint failures are reported as being caused by the grease drying out. When the grease dries out the needles stop rotating. The grease dries out becuase they get hot and the lighter elements bake off over time.

 

The needles not only rotate but "walk" around the trunion in what is called procession, i.e. when a needle rotates on it's axis in a complete revolution it is in a different place than it was when that same spot faced the axis of the trunion on the previous revolution. That allows the needles to share the load and dissipate the heat more evenly.

 

I've never done a science experiment to determine how fast the needles move in procession, but you are correct in that if it's very fast it would result in more heat from friction. It's the wobbling motion of the u-joint that causes the procession although I don't know if the needles rotation initiates the procession or the procession initiates rotation (hope that makes sense).

 

The answer given by MW is what I would call a "probability" answer. It's not really whether the car is being used as a DD, but rather how it's being used. If it's used as a DD, the probability of drivng for long stretches at a time day after day greatly increases. As I said before, I've found for myself at least that making a 40+ YO car a DD is next to impossible. I hope that Buckeye doesn't have the same bad luck that I've had, but I too started with a comlete new/rebuilt drivetrain, all new wiring harnesses except the main underdash, etc. Mine was never as pretty as Buckeye's but it was a looker in 1997.

[miketyler 15]

I dunno but I just added this level to my list of tools I need to add to my collection

 

[Machspeed 219]

I dunno but I just added this level to my list of tools I need to add to my collection

 

 

 

That's funny, Mike......me too....LOL!

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

From what I gather here you have determined what your static driveshaft angles are with your car sitting in the garage and are basing u joint function on those measurements? Is that correct or did I misunderstand your statements and the follow up comments?.

 

correct, i made the measurements with the car sitting on the wheels under it's own weight.

 

the car is not finished, there is still more weight to add and it's missing parts to make it street legal at this point. i made the measurements to get an idea where i'm currently at. i'm expecting the car to drop another 1" in the back. with a 52" driveshaft length (i think that's what it was), i'm expecting that to possibly change the front u-joint angle by one degree (if my trig is correct). i should put some 45 lb plates in the car and just measure again to see how it reacts for curiousity sake.

 

do you have a recommendation of how to data log once i get the car on the street? i haven't seen much mention of this on the forums.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

That's funny, Mike......me too....LOL!

 

it's much better than one of those plastic 360 degree gauges you find at lowes. i would have to fiddle with that thing, tapping to break the surface tension on the pointer and make several measurements to get some sort of average.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

The answer given by MW is what I would call a "probability" answer. It's not really whether the car is being used as a DD, but rather how it's being used. If it's used as a DD, the probability of drivng for long stretches at a time day after day greatly increases.

 

absolutely agree. like most things, we try to put the odds in our favor to make the end goal a success.

 

just like many have told me a forged crank isn't necessary for my power level. for the cost, it seemed like a worthwhile trade to decrease the probability of a crank related failure. it doesn't mean it won't break.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

a little video from thursday night. it was the first time i got in the car, started it, and took it outside. it was idling at 650 rpm. i hadn't had the tach hooked up when i made the carb and timing adjustments a few weeks ago so . i'm happy it's idling that well.

 

 

my dad came down today to help install the front and rear glass.

 

put a little smoke in the car this afternoon as well.

 

 

 

 

[Mike65 475]

:punk: Looks good Buckeye, hope mine looks half as good some day. Keep up the good work.

[Junior2561 10]

Its came a long way!