Pittcrew

Sorry , forgot to post the relevant info. Here is a 392 that I built in 2004. AFR 205, Comp solid roller XR286 R-10 , Victor intake , Race demon 830 carb, Hooker engine swap headers(engine was in 65 mustang) 4 speed toploader. As you can see we started the chassis dyno pull down at 2000(easy to do with a manual trans). With all of the upper rpm parts it made decent power down low but did not get up on the torque curve until 4000. Peak hp is around 6K and we were pulling it to almost 7k Engine idled at 1100 and with a lot of traffic driving would foul plugs. Print out shows first and last pulls. I had a lot of street time on the car with a AFR gauge so the jetting was spot on when we started. All we adjusted was timing and curves. With some changes I think the torque from 2k to 4k could be flattened out a bit still keeping the 205's

When we do chassis dyno work on a street car we load them as low as 2000 if applicable. Which by the time your foot and the dyno operator get in sync appears as 22-2300 ish on the graph.If the engine is built as a street only application then we tune it to the driving range. Not very many engines like to be loaded that low so you need a engine that is specific built. On those same engines we dont go much past 5K the cams are usually done by then. Idle torque is irrelevant to me because IIRC most factory convertors have a stall speed in the 1500-1800 range. Someone correct me if I am wrong. You need to do the pull after stall speed has been reached. If you have a 4K stall then start the pull at 4K etc. To me it would be a waste to start a pull on engine built for 2500 up power at 4000 like it would be a waste to start a pull on a engine built for 4000 up power at 2500. To reiterate, you should do the pull where the engine is built to make its power. If your cam , heads , intake etc dont wake up until 3K then I would start there. You can pull it lower but the engines built for upper ranges dont always like that. They will be sluggish until then. I have been involved in 50+ chassis dyno pulls and this is just my 2cents.

I thought you were asking generally on what was possible.My specific is as follows: 460 Ford Initial timing 16 total mechanical advance 38( I have a 11L) Vacuum canister total is 22 degrees @ 18 in ( I could add more vacuum but it stopped moving at 18.) During cruise as measured at the spark port is 18 degrees @ 15 in. Total timing at cruise = initial + mechanical( I am all in at 2500 and cruise rpm is 3000 on freeway)+ vacuum = 56 degrees at cruising speed with vac advance hooked up. I have never plotted a curve on the canister.

The total is dependent on a number of factors. Engine size Throttle position Carburetor size Which canister you are running. Initial setting etc Not all canisters are adjustable but not all are the same either. As previously stated the autolites with the screw on front allow a lot of tuning possibilities. My 460 would not produce the same signal to the timed spark port on the same carburetor as your 408 at the same rpm same load etc. So we would have different totals even if we were using the same distributor. So what I could get and what you could get would be different. The timed spark port picks up its signal above the butterflies on a Holley for example so it is relative to air flow through the carb which is why there is no signal at idle. Some people claim, as previously stated up to 50 degrees and higher during crusing. The grade of gasoline would be a limiting factor followed by a miss or other tuning problem. At my altitude of 4300 feet we regularly run 12-16 initial and sometimes higher with out incurring the slow starter syndrome. I am also able to run very fast curves without pinging. The engine I am referring to has 9.5:1 compression so that gives me a lot of room for running more timing. That being said a high compression engine would tolerate less advance than a low compression engine dynamically with the vacuum circuit operational. Statically all the breaker plates have the same travel that I am aware of. I run the vacuum advance on the street and the engine seems a little smoother at cruising. I unhook it at the track and just run on the mechanical side. I rely on the canister spring to be strong enough to prevent breaker plate flutter at higher rpms but it is recommended if you are 6K and up shift that you use a positive lock on the breaker plate. To find out what is in the canister I hook up a vacuum pump and after getting a idle setting I apply vacuum and advance the timing and check the reading. This is done at idle so the centrifugal circuit has not started advancing. This at least tells me what is in the can but not what I will actually see driving. Im sure others have experience also and could share more information.

Thanks for the clarification. A few last questions so I understand, even at a shallow angle if there is a load against the needles why wont they turn? And if they are not turning then where is the friction causing the heat to burn up the joint coming from? Because if there was friction then wouldnt the needles be turning? I agree that if there was no rotation of the needles they would fail but due to aerodynamic drag or elevation changes I would think the load would cause the needles to turn some. Is this not the case? I only ask because I have never experienced U joint failure or vibration due to an angular issue except when I folded the pads over on my 9 inch and sent the pinion angle radically positive during a launch. But that is not what we are talking about here. This is scenario being discussed is a new thing to me. I agree there was not a question of the quality of the MW parts I was just confirming they are a good piece. Thanks for the information.

Maybe I am missing something here. I have two drag cars, one a 10 second car and the other a 8 second car. I base my experience on those. From what I gather here you have determined what your static driveshaft angles are with your car sitting in the garage and are basing u joint function on those measurements? Is that correct or did I misunderstand your statements and the follow up comments? I understand there are optimal angles to achieve but I believe they are within a range. A car in motion exhibits dynamic suspension movement and the angles are constantly changing. Fuel load, road surface , power application, spring rating, shock adjustments and driver weight all contribute to these changes. I agree with what the guy from Mark Williams said, you would need to determine where you were under the operating conditions you were going to experience. While that sounds good you would need some sort of data logging in the rear suspension to determine where you are at that time. The measurements you have sitting in your garage are useful in determining weather you are outside of that range in that condition but not hard numbers you will be experiencing driving. A drag car at launch has different angles than at the top end. I run solid mounts but a car with soft mounts will exhibit some movement at the tail shaft. Before experiencing u joint failure at a given angle I agree with the comment that the joint would have to be at that angle for a given dwell of time and as the suspension is always moving I don't think that it would be there long. You may experience a situation where in the range of suspension motion the angles travel in and out of the red zone. I use Mark Williams Driveshafts(with Timken ujoints),Axles and 3rd members in my cars and have had no problems at all and no signs of wear. IMO they are high quality pieces.

I run 28psi in the rear for normal driving. Others have made a good point, BFG DR's will flat hook better than the Nitto's but you give up wet weather usability. I guess it depends on how you will use the car. If you are 99% street driving then getting another set of wheels for a drag tire might be best. Power shift makes a good point on tread depth. I never checked the Nitto's when new so I cant say what the starting depth on them was.

There are three places that I found who sell engine swap kits or parts for that application. www.critesrestoration.com www.autokrafters.com www.mpgheads.com Crites you stated is back ordered. So give the others a try. I have 460's in Four of our 69's

I run Nitto Drag radials on my 5.0. They use the same tread pattern as the regular road tire. I have had them in the rain several times as the car is a daily driver. No issues what so ever. Because they use the same tread as the road tire is why I went with them instead of the BFG's. They are sticky and you will hear the rocks tinging on the wheel wells when you pull out of parking lots. I drive it on the freeway a lot and they are fine. I have 20K miles on them with plenty of tread left. That being said a lot of that is how they are used. I don't bracket race the car every week but I have taken it to the track , I don't do burnouts for the neighbors daily, I don't try to spin the tires every time I turn a corner, I do check the air regularly. If you are a guy that has to burn the tires at every light and race the car every week you will not get the life out of them that I have.

There is definitely a consistency problem with hooker, how is it one guys car they fit and work great and another guy cant get them in with similar engine trans combos? Car sagging is a copout answer.:angry: They need to go down to Mexico where they are made and tighten up the process.:hammer: I had a set of super comps and the build quality is horrible. I cut the collectors off and completely re worked them. You want to throw up in your mouth shine a flashlight down the collector end and look at all of the weld gobs and burrs. I just finished cutting up and re working a set of hooker FE race headers(not mine)to fit a car. Horrible build quality and they cost almost a grand. This is why anymore for my own cars I build my own headers. If you have the patience and know how to weld you can build something so far superior to what is on the market. Sorry for the rant.

PM sent

As per Buckeye's request here are some pics posted in this thread. Here are some pics that I hope show what you want to see. At the time I took them the car was on stands so the views might not be all that great. Also at the time I built this there was no 3 inch exhaust available. I have not googled to see if there currently is. I started with these parts. Not shown is the Dr. Gas X pipe. Here are the over axle pipes in progress. Here are some views of them in the car. Here is the view on the tight side. It is super close here. The pipe just barely clears the shackle. It sits just below it. This taken during tip fab. Tons of room over here. Taken after tip fab. I bought this car in 87 and sold it to my Parents in 95 to pay the down payment on a new ford truck. I owned three 69's at the time and it was the one to go. My mom owns the car and at the time I built the exhaust she didnt want round pipe coming out of the valance. She designed the tips and I made them.

I will PM you the pics and info so as not to water down your thread. I would rather see your work on here, as I already have seen mine.:thumbup: You have mentioned a few times that you are unhappy with your headers. If it is something that really bugs you then change it. I think the percentage is 90 something of people that never go back and re do something after a project is done. They typically live with it bugging them. You have the advantage of having data from the dyno showing what your motor makes with a set of tubes specd out like the dyno headers as far as primary and collector sizes. I dont know how your in car headers compare to the dyno headers you achieved your numbers with but it gives you a baseline. You can tweak that curve with something custom and build a really nice collector also. I got into building them because they weren't available for a application or options I wanted in a size I wanted or what was available was of horrible quality and or fit. Its only tubing, cut it up.:taz: I realize you had them coated but its better to make the change now than after you have time and money in the rest of the exhaust system designed to work with them. After all, you took a very pretty and perfectly new oil pan and cut it up.:smile:You have shown that you have the want and knowledge to take on any task this car has and I have no doubt you will come up with something great. On a side note, I have been running Borla XR1 race mufflers on another 69 running 10.60's at 4500ft and they have been great. High quality muffler IMO. Sorry this is so wordy.Just my two cents. Keep up the great work!

The headers are 1 3/4 into 3 inch collectors into 3 inch exhaust. The mufflers are Summit racing 3 inch glass packs. The system was made out of 3 inch J bends and straights. The tips I fabricated. Here is a pic of it in the car showing a area that was a problem for me. We both have driveshaft loops and trying to tuck 3 inch pipe up in the car and clear the loop was a challenge. It doesnt leave you much room and as a result the pipes are lower than I would have liked. I am sure you will come up with a creative solution to the problem. If I was to build the system again I would have looked into oval tubing or possibly a different routing. Its all hindsight. If you would like a specific view of the exhaust let me know and I will see if I have a pic of it. I really enjoy your thread, you have taken the time to learn the skills to build your car and do it right. I laughed at the Rim Blow manual steering comment. Been there done that. Nothing like honking the horn while trying to back out of a parking spot.:thumbup: If you can modify your headers you can build your own exhaust system. Never be limited by what you can buy when you can build. Good luck!

69 owner for 30 years and I just recently found this site. Great build! I apologize if this was mentioned before but I remember someone asking about 2 1/2 or 3 inch tail pipes and how or if they fit. In 05 I fabbed this entire system headers to tips for one of our 69's with a 460 C6. The tail pipes are 3 inch and I made them using mandrel bends and straight pieces. The X is a Dr. Gas piece into glass packs. The 3 inch fits but is very tight on the drivers side between the tank and spring. You want to have hangers that dont give a lot of movement or it will rattle. Again sorry if this was already mentioned.