Carb/Trans/head issue after repair.

[1969vert 55]

Can I build a 393w but still be achieved the hp without sacrificing vacuum? just trying to wrap my head around this if it can be built it not, I'm willing to sacrifice the hp/tq I wanted achieve and to have something street able.

 

yes you can. My solid roller in my 427W was in my 393 and would hold 15+ in of vacuum at idle. Due to my cam choice. So yes power brakes could be operated..

 

the C-4 needs to be pressure tested to see where the loss of pressure is. Or its just in the valve body.. there is a port on the side of the C-4 to tie in a gauge into and drive it around.. I taped the gauge to the windshield while troubleshooting some issues.. there could be a crack ( internal ) in the case ( or VB ) causing pressure loss or a bad front pump pressure return spring stuck open. take it to someone you can trust.. best thing is watch it being torn down and let them explain what they see.. Best trans guy down here is Broader performance.. I bend his ear when I work on mine..

 

then again it could be something simple like heads angle cut and intake gaskets sucking in...

And the heads yes they can be bad from the factory.. I had a set of J302 from ford the AR style...all valve guides were replaced new.. they were crimped while pressing..

[rwcstang 201]

i don't understand your answer to my rpm question but if you want to rev more than around 5600 rpm you need to change your gear ratio so you can use a bigger cam and have less vacuum.

 

if you want to accelerate more quickly you also need to change it .

What gear ratio would you recommend? most likely a higher gear? I've always had my 3:00 open rear forever and when I installed this motor it was great, minus the intermittent smoking issue but I would notice it would be slugghish on the high rpm, I was thinking since I have a 3 speed auto and low rear gears were at fault. but it was a great setup. I had fun with it power when I needed it it would smoke most of the 400hp+ Cars. 

 

Im open to any ideas or recommendations, I was told the engine I currently have would spin up to 6500. so if anything Street/strip setup would be nice. I can slam on the gas and the car would just burns tires when I would get around 2k. 

 

Again, I dont know anything else beyond that. Anyone with a street/strip driven car with an 3 speed auto have any similar set up? 

[barnett468 418]

i have been building engines and restoring cars for 40 years so i have had nearly every combo possible . i still can't get a read on what you really want and what you really have but if it roasts the tires easily and revs to 6500 rpm, you have a very high stall converter and/or very crappy tires, so i would address the traction issue and run a cam that will not rev past 6000 . i would also consider 3.25 gears . this combo should get you from point a to point b noticeably faster when you floor it but it still wont be revving excessively high on the freeway.

[Jetnoise 36]

appears You/your shop have made many changes at one time

sounds like a possible simple tune is off to me like 1969_mach is pointing you to.

Your basic c4 is likely not up to a 393...ask me how I know

A 393 with "flat top" pistons is going to have bigger static compression 10.5-11+

24cc+ dish may net you 9.?+ at 60cc chamber

the part number for the cam is fubar and is not a good sign of transparency on your shop's part. No cam card? The heads part number from what I see is not in the Avenger online catalog or is there a 195cc combustion chamber option offered.hmmmmm

the heads may be the culprit for all your issues, maybe not....

I'd initially focus on fuel and spark to rule them out first before spending money on new hardware or machine work.

A smaller cam will not solve issues with crappy heads. Have you looked at the pugs?

maybe your balancer timing marks aren't what your timing pointer needs or is set up for. Ford manufactured many possibilities over the life of the 351W related to this.

I didn't see any charge on your invoice for degreeing the cam. Wish your pictures showed pricing.

Bob weight looks in check

A 393 with the right parts can give you 15lbs of vacuum power bake friendly and 500 hp easy peasy

A new shop may be in order.

[barnett468 418]

.

where does it say 195 cc combustion chamber option?

 

good heads will not solve issues with an over cammed engine either.

[rwcstang 201]

try this link to see clearer pics, seems photobucket pixelized my pics when i upload them. 

 

http://imgur.com/a/3im2Z

 

[rwcstang 201]

appears You/your shop have made many changes at one time

sounds like a possible simple tune is off to me like 1969_mach is pointing you to.

-I tried tuning it, but though the idle was good, no pinging or the rocks and the can soundwas herd, the car would over heat at idle. the tech said he recurved the dist to get more timing as of right now the car doesnt want to over heat. 

 

Your basic c4 is likely not up to a 393...ask me how I know

- so how? the trans that I bought this from was from performance automatic is the super streeter, from what I was told this can take the the power, it never gave me issues at all until i took it to this shop. 

 

A 393 with "flat top" pistons is going to have bigger static compression 10.5-11+

24cc+ dish may net you 9.?+ at 60cc chamber

the part number for the cam is fubar and is not a good sign of transparency on your shop's part. No cam card? The heads part number from what I see is not in the Avenger online catalog or is there a 195cc combustion chamber option offered.hmmmmm 

 

true, it could be they discontinued that head I have and replaced it with 185 or 205..unsure though, Im just guessing. 

 

the heads may be the culprit for all your issues, maybe not....

- for some reason, I was betting my top dollar on this.. from what I was told from FPS they are canfield heads just re--branded 

 

I'd initially focus on fuel and spark to rule them out first before spending money on new hardware or machine work.

-will do, going to check on this hopefully this weekend if it doesn't rain. 

 

A smaller cam will not solve issues with crappy heads. Have you looked at the pugs?

- Not yet, but will update you guys this weekend. 

 

maybe your balancer timing marks aren't what your timing pointer needs or is set up for. Ford manufactured many possibilities over the life of the 351W related to this.

- I was told by the tech that the timing marks on the balancer did not meet at at TDC this could be why originally I kep having timing/overheating issues from prior

 

I didn't see any charge on your invoice for degreeing the cam. Wish your pictures showed pricing. Unfortunately, I dont have the physical paper work this was sent to me when I originally bought the first engine when I got the motor installed at a shop. Luckily, the owner of the shop that installed my motor still has my paper work but he had to close shop due to health issue and no one would be able to do day to day operations. I pinged him on FB and he told me that he still has my paper work and will make copies and send them over to me. from what I showed him he said cam lobe is 112, but he gonna try to find the cam card if it was provided. 

 

Bob weight looks in check

A 393 with the right parts can give you 15lbs of vacuum power bake friendly and 500 hp easy peasy

A new shop may be in order.

 

- I agree, but what sucks here is that all the shops are fading away and any shop this is available doesn't have the experience or probably the knowledge, I was recommended to the shop, as they did a head swap for him and he recommend the shop. I know the owner he's been here for years, and is known for working on mustang. I didn't even know that he did this type of work, I thought he only did exhaust swaps, basic maintaince and repair. 

 

only places that I see is a local transmission shop that a block away from and has good reviews, of course some bad but I always see alot of protouring/restomod/race cars going in for transmission work. I emailed him and he said to swing by and he can drive it to get an idea of whats going on. 

again, alot to do here so excuse my technical knowledge. This is the first time I ever played with a performance motor as I always ran a stock 302 prior going a stroked 351w. 

[DocWok 30]

the fuel mixture screws should always be set when the engine is up to operating temperature because this is where it will be operating at 99.999% of the time . adjusting them when the engine is cold serves zero purpose.

Never mentioned anywhere in the post to adjust the mixtures when the motor is cold.

 

99.999% of the people would know to adjust when the engine is at operating temperature.

[MN69Grande 203]

Looking at the build sheet via imgur I see part number P0000HR-R with a description of Retro fit hyd roller cam(custom) 1.150bc 6x -112

So I'm assuming you have a custom grind cam.  Did they give you the details somewhere else?

[barnett468 418]

Never mentioned anywhere in the post to adjust the mixtures when the motor is cold.

 

99.999% of the people would know to adjust when the engine is at operating temperature.

 

 

I never said you did, therefore there was no point to attempting to "defend" your post . My comment was simply information for the op since he admittedly has little knowledge of engines.

[rwcstang 201]

Hey Barnet, 

 

I was looking at the links u sent me, 

 

I like this http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1669&gid=289 since I do have Hedman long tubes and a Weiland stealth intake and of course, I will be upgrading the rear end but later. this sounds more what I am leaning towards. 

[barnett468 418]

you should run 3.50 - 3.73 gears with that and it won't have high vacuum

[1969_Mach1 333]

What still confuses me a little is, other than intermittent oil smoke, wasn't this motor running fine before all this work was done?  If it was, why isn't somebody trying to retune it before spending a lot of money on new parts?  If tuning doesn't accomplish what you want, then look at a different cam or whatever else might be needed to get to your goals.  At least get your old carb parts back from the shop, even if you're not certain you'll need them.

 

You probably learned this, but when you take a car into a shop for repairs, ask for the old parts.  Even if you simply throw them away. It sounds kind of untrusting.  But I know anything still good off your car, for example, the carb main body that was changed, will eventually get sold to another customer.

[rwcstang 201]

I have the old part carb main body, so I don't think that is a problem of putting the old carb back and having a retune. Can timing/tuning effect vacuum?

[69volunteer 84]

 

 

Can I build a 393w but still be achieved the hp without sacrificing vacuum? just trying to wrap my head around this if it can be built it not, I'm willing to sacrifice the hp/tq I wanted achieve and to have something street able.

 

yes you can. My solid roller in my 427W was in my 393 and would hold 15+ in of vacuum at idle. Due to my cam choice. So yes power brakes could be operated..

 

the C-4 needs to be pressure tested to see where the loss of pressure is. Or its just in the valve body.. there is a port on the side of the C-4 to tie in a gauge into and drive it around.. I taped the gauge to the windshield while troubleshooting some issues.. there could be a crack ( internal ) in the case ( or VB ) causing pressure loss or a bad front pump pressure return spring stuck open. take it to someone you can trust.. best thing is watch it being torn down and let them explain what they see.. Best trans guy down here is Broader performance.. I bend his ear when I work on mine..

 

then again it could be something simple like heads angle cut and intake gaskets sucking in...

And the heads yes they can be bad from the factory.. I had a set of J302 from ford the AR style...all valve guides were replaced new.. they were crimped while pressing..

 

Did you jump the light? Nice run though.....

[barnett468 418]

yes, timing and tuning cam affect vacuum a little but it's best if you know someone that can time the car by ear and, also recurve the distributor if needed . i can post one method to do both of these later if you want to try it but you need a timing light and a vacuum gauge and/or tach would also be helpful, however, this will NOT get you a lot more vacuum so it will not cure your new trans problem.

[rwcstang 201]

Hey barnett, 

 

since you posted those two cam options, 

 

can you post what heads would work best, or do you still need info, I'm try one more time to call FPS.. hopefully they can help me out if not, its basically a dead end there. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

Just adding, keep in mind the descriptions of those cams are based on 302 CID motors and will behave more mild with slightly lower RPM ranges in a 393 CID motor.

[barnett468 418]

Hey barnett, 

 

since you posted those two cam options, 

 

can you post what heads would work best, or do you still need info, I'm try one more time to call FPS.. hopefully they can help me out if not, its basically a dead end there. 

 

well your heads may be perfectly fine to use but since the guy claimed he ported them its hard to say for certain as he may have fkd em up big time . keep in mind that none of us here have any clue about your heads or your cam and we all want to save you as much money as possible which is why people are suggesting you get it tuned properly first, but unfortunately there are very few people that know how to PROPERLY tune old high perf engines and i am one of them but i am also 300 miles away from you.

 

in my experience, the gold standard for small block ford heads are afr's with the trick flow 11r's being right up there also.

 

you could send your heads to a good porter and have him look at them and flow test them to assess their current condition but if you simply want to give up on them and sell them then based on what you have posted, my guess is that you would be best off with the afr 195 heads with that 272 lunati cam with 1.72 rocker arms and 3.43 gears . it will run very strong with that setup and still have "fair" vacuum . it really seems like your biggest problem is the trans and not the engine so again, i would call the trans builder . you may simply need a different valve body which is probably around $300.00 and that is a lot cheaper than new heads and cam etc.

[rwcstang 201]

well your heads may be perfectly fine to use but since the guy claimed he ported them its hard to say for certain as he may have fkd em up big time . keep in mind that none of us here have any clue about your heads or your cam and we all want to save you as much money as possible which is why people are suggesting you get it tuned properly first, but unfortunately there are very few people that know how to PROPERLY tune old high perf engines and i am one of them but i am also 300 miles away from you.

 

in my experience, the gold standard for small block ford heads are afr's with the trick flow 11r's being right up there also.

 

you could send your heads to a good porter and have him look at them and flow test them to assess their current condition but if you simply want to give up on them and sell them then based on what you have posted, my guess is that you would be best off with the afr 195 heads with that 272 lunati cam with 1.72 rocker arms and 3.43 gears . it will run very strong with that setup and still have "fair" vacuum . it really seems like your biggest problem is the trans and not the engine so again, i would call the trans builder . you may simply need a different valve body which is probably around $300.00 and that is a lot cheaper than new heads and cam etc.

I understand, i just wish I knew more about the motor so I can relay this information to you guys. I think if he didn't port the heads and just fixed the guides I wouldn't have this issue, but transmission issue is likely going out the door or something is missing or broken with the connected my transmission to the motor. I see Performance automatic sells service/replacement parts so that's good to know. 

 

Ill try to report back what I find. as soon as the rain stops I'm going to be looking around for a shop who can do a tune with my holley main body and not the proform body. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

That's what I would try before investing in new motor parts.  I've tried Proform parts a few different times.  An HP style main body, metering blocks, and a base plate assembly.  Never had much luck with any of them.  Some ended up in the garbage, some on EBay.  Always ended up going back to Holley parts for Holley brand carbs.

[SM69Mach 68]

I can't really offer any advice to help as there are a lot smarter people in this thread than me, but wishing you good luck in fixing this.  Hope you get it squared away soon, as I know you seem to have caught the raw end of the deal a couple of times with this car.  

Good luck!

 

Scott 

[rwcstang 201]

I can't really offer any advice to help as there are a lot smarter people in this thread than me, but wishing you good luck in fixing this.  Hope you get it squared away soon, as I know you seem to have caught the raw end of the deal a couple of times with this car.  

 

Good luck!

 

Scott 

thanks i think these heads and carb are the one giving me the grief. it'll be fixed just gotta find a shop that is actually able to do this. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I suspect the shop only polished the combustion chambers to reduce detonation.  Nobody in their right mind would port those cylinder heads when you are only using a Weiand Stealth intake manifold.  The intake manifold ports already much smaller than the intake ports on those cylinder heads.

[rwcstang 201]

So update two:

 

Hope everyone had a great new year! 

 

so partially good news...I solved the braking problem. This past weekend I decided to take apart the master cylinder and look inside the booster (inner sleeve), I noticed a little pool of condensation in the inner boot and decided to clean it, the rubber inside is still fresh and flexible. I reinstalled the master cylinder and bleed all for corners starting with the farthest and going forward. After I bled the brakes, the car now stops on the dime. 

 

new issues found: 

 

Again, from what was discussed before its sounds like a carb/ignition issue, still looking for a shop to do tune this for me and I found two located near me and will give them a call tomorrow.

 

here are my observations of what I found: 

 

Whistling when revving & found a carb/intake manifold gasket air leak. I replaced the gasket, the leak is resolved but the carb still whistles but not as loud now. 

 

Also, while driving the car it hesitates and misfires (when getting up to temp). Once hot, the car drives with out any issue. I did notice a strong sent of fuel in the cabin. Anyways, I took it back home and starting to look at the ignition setup, found that 2, 3 4 spark plug wires were cracked and exposing metal. Luckily, I had an extra set of used plug wires and replaced all of them, but during cold starts the issue persists with the exhaust "popping/Mis-fire"

 

Going to look at the spark plugs tomorrow if it doesn't rain. Slowly but surely..