428 Timing ?

[Brian Conway 264]

Driving down the freeway yesterday doing about 75 and all of a sudden no throttle response.  Gave the pedal a little pump, no response, might have been a pop from the carb, checked the gauges, oil, temp, and voltage are all good.  By this time the motor is turned off, I am in neutral , coasting and looking for a place to pull over.  Get off the freeway, park, try a restart and another back fire, continues to crank and no sign of starting.  Called AAA, got the rig home, in the carport, shaker off and the hood open.  From the drivers seat I can see the carb. and give the pedal a pump, turn the key and backfire through the carb.  So while still not sure what's up I take the dist. cap off, hand turn the crank to TDC (actually 10 degrees BTC) and note the rotor location.  Rotor is pointed at #7 cyl.( 5 o'clock).  Rotate another 360 degrees and it comes up #4 cyl. ( 11 o'clock).  The correct rotor position should be at #1 cyl. and 1 o'clock.  Timing is off and the dist. hold down is tight so it isn't jiggleing around.. Took one valve cover off and again hand turned the crank to check the valve train/cam.  Checked out OK every position is going up and down.   Pretty much a stock FE configuration without unusual  mods and the most recent work was a new starter motor..  Before going any further I like to hear some thoughts on what I have uncovered so far ?  Thanks, Brian

[Max Power 74]

Sounds like you should pull the dizzy and see what happened to the shear pin and/or distributor gear.

[larryc94 38]

Timing chain jumped? How old is it?

 

Larry

[Brian Conway 264]

Thanks for the interest.  Dist. seems to be fine as well as the gear, I can see, in the hole.  Dist was rebuilt and recurved about 7 years, Tim O'Conner, and about 10,000 miles ago.  No idea of history or age of the chain.  Came with the car.  Brian

[LoneWolf2U 136]

Recheck the pin on the dist gear, your changing rotor position with each turn of the crank points to it being sheared off inside of the dist shaft.

[larryc94 38]

If the Cam gear is original it has nylon teeth, was common for them to break and jump time.

 

Larry

[Caseyrhe 650]

Make sure the oil drive shaft doesn't fall out when re-stabbing dist, nothing like pulling the pan to fish it out

[Brian Conway 264]

The Dist. roll pin is fine and the gear as well as the rest of the assembly.  The rotor positions are 180 degrees opposing each other and may point to a jumped tooth/teeth.   I have heard of the ' plastic sprocket ' and that may be the source of the problem.  Thanks,  Brian

[jholmes217 65]

I agree with what the others have said already.  I had a 289 in a 66 Mustang that had a old chain that was stretched.  It would be running fine, then it would backfire and die.  Nylon teeth on original timing gear can cause that also.  If it ends up being the nylon teeth off a cam gear, I'd pull the oil pan also to get those out.  You don't want one of those pieces causing even more damage by getting wedged somewhere.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Those nylon cam timing gear and chain setups, called "Silent Chains" would normally fail with age.  When worn, the chain would usually jump a tooth when the engine is shut off or when trying to start it.  The motor looks new enough so that a nylon cam timing gear would no longer be in there.

 

However, looking at the OP's original pictures the rotor movement looks correct for one crankshaft revolution.  That Pertronix system is suspicious to me.  I've never used one.  But they seem to have a high failure rate which makes sense to me.  A compact electronic package in a high heat area usually shortens its life.  They are nice in that you can retain the OEM dist and appearance.  Beyond that, I don't think they are that great.  For an FE motor, if you want to maintain that original distributor appearance I'd probably just use a factory dual point distributor and a good canister type coil.

 

On a side note.  Did the oil pump drive come out through the distributor opening?  It shouldn't.  There is usually something to prevent that so it cannot accidentally fall into the oil pan when the distributor is removed.  Also, is that roll pin on the dist gear all the way in?  They are usually flush on both ends.

[Dave R. 85]

Brian, everything said here sounds like good advice. I would remove the roll pin in the dist. gear. It can shear yet lock up again so it turns the dist. but would obviously be way out of time. Looks like the pin may not have been seated properly and only part of the pin was engaged in the hollow dist. shaft. Dave R.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Very good point about the roll pin in the dist. gear.  I wanted to add, how did it sound when cranking?  Did it have it's normal rhythm?  If not, that's a good indicator of cam timing not being correct.  I'm inclined to think it's something simple, roll pin on the dist gear sheared or Pertronix failed.

[Caseyrhe 650]

On timing chain, you could pull the fuel pump and run a scope in to check slack in chain.

[Brian Conway 264]

Thanks guys one problem solved and another takes its place.  The roll pin is the problem.  After enduring a sermon from one of my high school car buddies it turns out the gear can be turned by hand, on the shaft, the roll pin was broken and now I can't see through it.   I was sure I was looking through it yesterday !  I emailed Tim O'Connor, Distributor Restoration, for advice on; just install another pin or should I be doing more ?  May or may not hear back from him.  No plastic gear or sprockets all metal and looks pretty good.  In the meantime. I have a water pump. fuel pump and gas line, lower radiator supports, radiator, a timing cover to install and some paint touch up to keep me humble for a while.  Be back on the road in a week ?  Thanks,  Brian

[1969_Mach1 333]

Really????  That guy rebuilt the distributor.  In my experiences with Ford distributors that gear presses onto the shaft.  The press fit plus the roll pin hold it in place.  I've disassembled many small block and only a few FE distributors.  The gears were all pressed onto the shaft.  A hydraulic press or special hand tools made by OTC are needed to install and remove those gears.  The roll pin might have sheared because the press fit was loose or nonexistent when it was reassembled after the rebuild.  The gear is probably now bad.  Hopefully the shaft is still okay.  I am a bit of a purist and I know many of us like original.  But sometimes a part is simply too worn to be usable.

 

I'm terribly sorry to rant.  Its a sore subject with me.  I don't have much faith in some of these "specialized" places that rebuild/repair items like this. 

[Brian Conway 264]

Well I am a bit of a original equipment kind a guy but the car is for driving after all.  Tim did get back to me, a matter of minutes, and simply said to put a new roll pin in.  Did say 90% of that type of failure is due to the oil pump.  Some sort od debries in the pump.  So I am going to drop the pan and pump and take a look.  Brian

[barnett468 418]

ummm....your pin is obviously coming out of the gear also.

 

Is your oil pump stock or high volume?

 

Exactly what oil are you running?

 

Put a 1/4" medium length 6 point socket taped to an extension then try to turn the oil pump counter clockwise before pulling the pan.

 

You are missing the clip on your distributor shaft.

 

Check the gear . It looks like one side might have a bit of wear.

 

You may need an adjustable vacuum advance can.

 

When you pull the timing cover, if the top gear is steel, measure how much it deflects side to side . If it has more than around 1/4" of deflection, I would change it . Also, if it looks like the gears are worn, I would change it.

 

Cloyes true street roller is decent . Rollmaster with the IWIS chain is the best.

.

 

.

[Brian Conway 264]

Barnett your opinion is always of value and thank you other guys for taking a look.  In a perfect world a tighter fit would be the way to go.  But in my part of the world people with the experience, the parts, and know how are pretty spread out.  I am still working on ' the fix ' but it's either a new smaller/tighter diameter gear, unlikely or a larger diameter shaft also unlikely.  So what's left ?  Fix as best and we'll see how that turns out.  That being said the last time I looked at my oil pump it did not seem to have any way to identify volume or maker.   I am running VR-1 30.  I have turned the pump and it seems fine.  I will know more soon as I am going to take it out for an exam and may indeed replace it.  Will be checking oil pan for the cause of this failure. The dist. gear may have some wear but I think it's acceptable.  Picture of the all steel set up behind the timing cover.  Can't ID it, Link Belt USA on the chain, but still looks pretty good to me and nothing is out 1/4".   Brian

[barnett468 418]

ok, that is a stock style chain not a roller . nothing wrong with it, it just isnt high perf.

 

if you can feel wear on the distributor gear, i would replace it with a crane gear . you do NOT want to eat the distributor drive gear on the cam.

 

you can make the gear tighter on the shaft by hitting the shaft around 9 times with a sharp punch . 3 rows of punch marks parallel to the shaft in 3 evenly spaced positions then lightly run a file over them . done it many times.

 

if the hole in the shaft is too large you can drill one 90 degrees out but make sure the gear is at the same height on the shaft.

 

unless you spin that up to 6000 rpm, the pin "should" not have sheared even with a high volume high pressure pump with 10w-30 oil

 

you can get hardened roll pins or special roll pins like the one below . mcmaster carr has them.

 

 

[Brian Conway 264]

Thanks for the reply and suggestions.  The gear is OK and is not really loose on the shaft but doesn't require a pulley to get it moved.  I have ordered from McMaster A box of 100 Coiled Spring Pins Extra Strength Steel, breaking point 2000 lbs. Brian

[Max Power 74]

I had to change gears on my Windsor, and while I really don't remember how much of a press fit it was, I do remember that I didn't need an actual press or special tools to swap it out. I was swapping from a composite gear to a steel one after the composite one failed at the roll pin hole.

 

I have also had cam and distributor gears strip after debris locked up my oil pump. The pin still didn't shear. Those pumps have very tight clearances, and many times on the stock pickup, there is a hole in the screen under the shroud that will let debris through.

 

If you have the car far enough apart to inspect the oil pump. just replace the oil pump with a stocker. Also, make sure you have a pickup with a full screen.

[barnett468 418]

those are the ones.

 

yeah, at the very least, disassemble the pump including the bypass valve.

 

sand, file, or polish the drive shaft if it is a tight fit in the pump or distributor.

 

i would also get a clip for it so it doesn't pull out with the distributor.

[Brian Conway 264]

Yes the pump and pick up are going to get a good going over.  I have the clip and have been hanging onto it for a while.  First time I've had the pan off and the dizzy out at the same time. Thanks,  Brian

[Brian Conway 264]

Just to finish the story.  I installed the new McMaster roll pin in the distributor shaft/gear.  I did drain the oil and dropped the oil pan.  Retrieved the rest of the broken roll pin.  No sign of anything unusual or a cause for the failure in the pan or the oil.  Removed the oil filter.  Removed the oil pump, HP/HV ?, and took it apart looking for anything unusual.  Again nothing.  Ordered a standard performance pump, M57B from Performance Oil Pumps, along with a 1/4" Billet HD shaft.  Installed a new motorcraft oil filter, installed the cleaned oil pan and filled it up with 30 weight VR1.   Did not find a reason for the pin failure and still don't know for sure why it failed.  Old part with 10,000 miles on it and it was just one of those things ?  Oil pressure readings are about the same hot idle 40 lbs. and at speed 65 lbs.  Car is running just fine but kinda got that waiting for the other shoe to drop feeling ?  Brian

[1969_Mach1 333]

Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude.  But, if you cannot find any other reason for the failure, then your roll pin failed because there is not a press fit between the gear and the shaft.  The dist. rebuilder should have adressed that during the rebuild.  When you reassemble at least do what barnett468 suggested with the center punch dimples on the shaft to tighten up the fit.  Maybe buy another gear.  If you are fortunate only the gear is contributing to the loose fit.