Opinions on a Windsor or Cleveland in a 69

[69BLJadeConv 10]

I pick up a 69 convert. about 3 months ago that I'm doing a restoration on. The car came with a 351c. I have receipts where the guy spend 8k on the motor. Drove the car a few times before pulling the motor out, the motor is awesome. It's a factory 4 speed m code car with deluxe interior and along with the other options makes it 1 of 43. Very very little rust. The car has its original trans, and rearend with the tags in place. I also have the original invoice.

 

I know the 69's didn't come with clevelands, but windsors.

 

Here is where I need your opinion:

 

How much will it de-value the car by leaving the cleveland in?

If i leave the cleveland in, but have a windsor on a stand what would that do to the value?

Will the value be higher with the Windsor in the car?

 

The level of restoration will be a very nice quality driver.

 

Thanks for your opinions,

Steve

[LindenBruce 27]

Well Steve the car would have higher value with the factory Windsor engine, but that value would only be dependent on you selling the car. In otherwords the car has no financial value unless youy plan to sell it one day. And that value is dependent on market factors at that time.

 

Having said that, it's your car use which ever engine you wish too. I am partial to the Windsor myself, but the Cleveland is a great engine with lots of power potential. The more you depart from factory the less value the car will have to a collector. But an enthusiast might like it even better. Just have fun with the old girl. And take tons of pictures during the teardown and rebuild. Document any chalk marks and over spray etc etc. Bruce

[ashleesmach1 28]

I would advise to leave it in the car too. There numerous 69's that have the cleveland motor in them. both motors are fun to build and drive so no big deal!

[KT 69 12]

Some late 69 cars came with Clevelands and if its a "M" or "Q" code 4V OMG just give it to me.... please :-)!!! If its an "M" code 70 you have one hell of a motor there. Only short coming would the compression ratio number probably to high for today's pump gas. Still a flat top "Q" code Cleveland piston swap would remedy that. And if someone stuck a 73 "Q" code CJ 4v in it you have a true treasure except for the low compression open chamber heads. Trash those cheap boat anchor pinging open chamber heads for a set of 70 era "M" code 4V closed chamber heads. Gets the "Q" code Cleveland compression back up to 10:1 range and rocks with a hyd. flat tappet #32-246-4 Comp Cam complet valve train kit and spread bore AL manifold, 600 to 750 cmf holley and damn good electronic ignition. Will pull hard with this combo from 2K to 6K rpm. DO NOT GET SNOOKERED INTO THAT 2V HEAD LINGO and 4V head DOGGY low end trash. Put a port polish on chamber and EX port only not intake. Go 1 7/8 " headers and 2 1/4" to 2 1/2" max exhaust. No need to go AL 2V,3V,4V heads for $2K plus. Not worth the manifold match headaches. Stick with your basic cast 4V closed chamber heads and this cam unless your a bracket racer. Add a windage tray and baffled pan. The weak oiling system talk is urban legand unless your spinning above 6K rpm. Leave the oiling system stock for a mild street motor. The valve keepers are the weak link for a stock Cleveland and the comp cam kit solves that. The ultimate is stroker with 4V heads that really makes use of those big ports. Just don't over stroke or you end up with a big block rahter than quick high rev Cleveland.

 

If its a 4-speed top loader go 3:25 rear gear and rock on. If its a 3-speed automatic go check out Vendor OD with a 3:51 to 3.73 rear ratio and a 2K rpm stall convertor.

 

Clevelands were a work of art in the day. They went on to enjoy a very long lived rep as top notch street motor downunder for decades after they were regulated of the roads in the USA.

 

Don't buy into the 4V to big doggy low end talk. It works with right combo.

[69shelbycoupe 11]

I built a cleveland that is going in my 69 coupe with the 4 speed toploader but then again it's a restomod not a stock restoration.

[maxum96 32]

Some late 69 cars came with Clevelands

 

You sure about that? I've never heard of that in the 25 years I've been around Mustangs and Ford high performance.

[KT 69 12]

Sure I'm I'm sure I rode in one in 69 when it was new. My older cousin got a new 69 stang with the Cleveland in it. Took me for a ride one night...Hi reving SOG I was impressed at age 13. he poping the hood and showing it off at every parking lot. I knew exactly what I wanted when I turned 16. That Cleveland experience was etched into my mental psyphic ever since along with the sound of huey's and music of the "Doors". I became a gear head on that night. Never looked back been Cleveland die hard ever since. Rumor has it some early 70's had W's also. Now I never saw or rode in a 70 351-W to confirm but Ford guys I've talked to claim some went out that way during transition between W to C 69/70 year end new year period.

 

Good debate some will never believe that is fine but I was there and I will never forget.

[69BLJadeConv 10]

Thanks for all the feed back guys. Don't think mine would be one that came with a Cleveland being the build date was March of 69???

 

Steve

[buening 63]

The whole Cleveland in 69 debate has been beat to death on other forums. No one can seem to come up with pictures of a Cleveland block's VIN stamp (and yes they had them!) and date codes to match the 69 car its in, nor can they prove build sheets with the engine code. Many people claim the plants ran out of Windsor motors near the end of the production year, so they dropped in Clevelands. What they don't realize is there were actually left over Windsors that they used in the early 70 cars (my 70 has 351w with matching VIN from Metuchen plant), and once those were gone they started using Clevelands. AFAIK, the only documented 69 cars with a Cleveland are test mules and executive cars, NOT production vehicles. However, with all of that I will say that anything can happen on a production line and it is possible cars got the Cleveland but it was not Ford's intention. Given that I've seen a few 70 cars with 351w and matching VINs from Metuchen, the other plants may have indeed ran out of Windsors late 69 but my experience is limited with San Jose and Dearborn 351 cars

 

Also, according to my knowledge they don't make a Cleveland water pump with the outlet on the passenger side....which is the correct side for the 69 cars. The factory would have to had access to the radiators they were going to put in the 70 cars, which may be possible but it might be a stretch. The 70 cars had the plastic vacuum tree on the firewall, whereas the 69 cars had the steel tree on the intake. Those 69 cars would have had all of the 70 vacuum hoses and plastic tree. These are just a few things under the engine bay that are different between the two years, so its not as easy as just dropping in a cleveland motor and calling it a day. It would have had to been at the very tail end of the production year when they received all parts for the 70 cars already.

[Max Power 74]

The whole Cleveland in 69 debate has been beat to death on other forums. No one can seem to come up with pictures of a Cleveland block's VIN stamp (and yes they had them!) and date codes to match the 69 car its in, nor can they prove build sheets with the engine code. Many people claim the plants ran out of Windsor motors near the end of the production year, so they dropped in Clevelands. What they don't realize is there were actually left over Windsors that they used in the early 70 cars (my 70 has 351w with matching VIN from Metuchen plant), and once those were gone they started using Clevelands. AFAIK, the only documented 69 cars with a Cleveland are test mules and executive cars, NOT production vehicles. However, with all of that I will say that anything can happen on a production line and it is possible cars got the Cleveland but it was not Ford's intention. Given that I've seen a few 70 cars with 351w and matching VINs from Metuchen, the other plants may have indeed ran out of Windsors late 69 but my experience is limited with San Jose and Dearborn 351 cars

 

Also, according to my knowledge they don't make a Cleveland water pump with the outlet on the passenger side....which is the correct side for the 69 cars. The factory would have to had access to the radiators they were going to put in the 70 cars, which may be possible but it might be a stretch. The 70 cars had the plastic vacuum tree on the firewall, whereas the 69 cars had the steel tree on the intake. Those 69 cars would have had all of the 70 vacuum hoses and plastic tree. These are just a few things under the engine bay that are different between the two years, so its not as easy as just dropping in a cleveland motor and calling it a day. It would have had to been at the very tail end of the production year when they received all parts for the 70 cars already.

 

^This^

 

The only known existence of Clevelands in 69 cars is in peoples minds. There are no known publicized examples of matching 69 cars with Clevelands in them still in existence, if they were ever made.

 

There are plenty of documented 351W H codes in early 70 cars, and they are out there in existence. Until someone can come up with a real living breathing example of a numbers matching Cleveland 69 car, I think it was just young minds with selective memories.

 

If they really were built, why did none survive?

[69shelbycoupe 11]

+ 1 for me. They did not make 69 cars with clevelands in them.

[RogerC 136]

Have also heard rumors of dealers possibly doing warranty replacement of 351Ws with 351C motors. Again, haven't seen any proof.

[Max Power 74]

Have also heard rumors of dealers possibly doing warranty replacement of 351Ws with 351C motors. Again, haven't seen any proof.

 

Not sure if dealers did it, but a lot of individuals did in the early 70s.

[69BLJadeConv 10]

Sorry guys, I didn't mean to open up a debate on Ford putting a Cleveland in a 69. I know that topic has been beat up several times. I just wanted peoples opinion on having a Cleveland instead of the correct Windsor in a 69 and what it would do to the value of the car.

 

Steve

[RogerC 136]

Not sure if dealers did it, but a lot of individuals did in the early 70s.

 

I did in the early 80s in my current 69.

 

OP,

If you're going for a restoration, probably better with the windsor. Think you might go back to original later, run the cleveland and keep a windsor pickled in your garage. Don't care and just want to play, run the cleveland and enjoy.

[69BLJadeConv 10]

RacerX...... sent you a PM

[maxum96 32]

Rumor has it some early 70's had W's also. Now I never saw or rode in a 70 351-W to confirm but Ford guys I've talked to claim some went out that way during transition between W to C 69/70 year end new year period.

 

Not a rumor. It's a fact. I've seen many original 1970 Mustangs with H code 351W motors. My car is one of them. My build date is 10/15/69. I have the Ford report along with the Marti report that back this up. Also it's common knowledge that Mustangs came with both 351W 2V and 351C 2V motors in 1970. Even the factory service manuals from 1970 show this. I have yet to ever see one shred of evidence to back up the rumor of late 1969 Mustangs getting 351C motors. Why would Ford have run out of 351W motors and installed 351C motors? Ford is still making 351W motors today (1996 was the last year they were installed in vehicles, they're crate motors today).

Edited December 17, 2010 by maxum96

[69gmachine 15]

It's only because there have been several documented cases of whacky things Ford did on the assembly line that I will hold out the possibility that a 4V Cleveland could have potentially been installed in a late '69, although I'm well aware it was a '70 design and has never been documented. We know the 2v Windsor engines were used well into the '70 model year before switching over to the Cleveland, but here is a known case (at least to me) of a late '69 car with some non standard '69 parts on it.

 

A '69 convertible was special ordered around late July early August 1969 at a local dealer here in Maryland. This was about the time they were switching over to the '70 model year production. It was a plain 2V 302 with the deluxe interior, but the dealer didn't have a convertible on the lot, and that's what the customer wanted so it was special ordered. It wasn't delivered until December, well into the '70 model deliveries. It had been pulled off the line for this custom order so serial number wise it was probably not the last '69 built, but I'm sure it was the last '69 delivered. Anyway, when the 2nd owner went to restore it, she found that the seat material didn't match anything in the catalogs. Long story short, they did not use the 69 Mustang deluxe material although it has the short '69 style seats. They may have used material from another car line or perhaps it is '70 style material, but it definitely does not match any of the documented material for a '69 deluxe interior. All this is to say that had someone custom ordered a 4V 351 '69 Mustang late in the production run, anything is possible at Ford. However, it would have been a rare one off, and has not been documented as having happened.

Edited December 17, 2010 by 69gmachine

[vettist 10]

since you have a good cl keep it, a 4v windsor 69 is hard to find.i am in the same boat, the windsor in my car needed everything but i got a fresh cl , it is not original but wtf -

[very fat and very dumb 40]

Keep the stupid Cleveland until you can find a 69 Windsor with the correct date codes for your car. It will give you something to look for at swap meets, rebuild it at your own pace then get rid of the stupid Cleveland. You can sell the stupid Cleveland to a recycler for rebar or someone with something other than a 69 Mustang. I'm not sure why anyone would own anything but a 69 Mustang but they do.

[Max Power 74]

It's only because there have been several documented cases of whacky things Ford did on the assembly line that I will hold out the possibility that a 4V Cleveland could have potentially been installed in a late '69, although I'm well aware it was a '70 design and has never been documented. We know the 2v Windsor engines were used well into the '70 model year before switching over to the Cleveland, but here is a known case (at least to me) of a late '69 car with some non standard '69 parts on it.

 

A '69 convertible was special ordered around late July early August 1969 at a local dealer here in Maryland. This was about the time they were switching over to the '70 model year production. It was a plain 2V 302 with the deluxe interior, but the dealer didn't have a convertible on the lot, and that's what the customer wanted so it was special ordered. It wasn't delivered until December, well into the '70 model deliveries. It had been pulled off the line for this custom order so serial number wise it was probably not the last '69 built, but I'm sure it was the last '69 delivered. Anyway, when the 2nd owner went to restore it, she found that the seat material didn't match anything in the catalogs. Long story short, they did not use the 69 Mustang deluxe material although it has the short '69 style seats. They may have used material from another car line or perhaps it is '70 style material, but it definitely does not match any of the documented material for a '69 deluxe interior. All this is to say that had someone custom ordered a 4V 351 '69 Mustang late in the production run, anything is possible at Ford. However, it would have been a rare one off, and has not been documented as having happened.

 

Seats are a little easier to pull off than an engine that needs different exhaust, radiator, and brackets. While dropping in a Cleveland is a simple swap these days, from an assembly line standpoint it would have been a bit more complex.

 

Since Ford had a supply of Windsors that lasted well into 1970, I am pretty skeptical that a Cleveland ever made it into a 69 chassis, even with Ford assembly line shenanigans.

[Max Power 74]

Keep the stupid Cleveland until you can find a 69 Windsor with the correct date codes for your car. It will give you something to look for at swap meets, rebuild it at your own pace then get rid of the stupid Cleveland. You can sell the stupid Cleveland to a recycler for rebar or someone with something other than a 69 Mustang. I'm not sure why anyone would own anything but a 69 Mustang but they do.

 

 

I will gladly take that stupid Cleveland off his hands.

[Grabber70Mach 107]

I will gladly take that stupid Cleveland off his hands.

 

+2 on taking the Cleveland, I'll even haul it off for you.

[69BLJadeConv 10]

Thanks for all the imput. I really like the Cleveland with the exception it runs a little warm (190/200) around 210 or so in traffic. I have decided to put the Cleveland back in and pick up the Windsor in case i sell the car I will have the correct motor it can with from the factory.

[maxum96 32]

Do you have the correct thermostat for a Cleveland? They're different than a normal thermostat. 351C thermostat is on the right.