69 mach 408w build

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

i'm almost ready to haul all of the motor pieces and parts up to the machine shop for machine work, assembly and tune. i decided to switch over to internal balance so i'm waiting for the replacement flywheel and damper.

 

it will be put on a engine dyno when complete. i'm hoping for 500 at the crank, but reality tells me 475hp.

 

if you have a guess, i'd love to hear it. the engine shop was telling me about 6 weeks, but i can see that turning into 12 weeks...

 

here are the core items

 

• 408 cubes (4" X 4.03")
  
• TFS iron High Port 192 heads (work by Fox Lake)
  
  • intake runner slightly opened up at the entry only
    
  • full exhaust port
    
  • bowls opened
    
  • area around exhaust valve opened to unshroud
    

  [*]10:1 comp

  [*]Hydraulic Roller

  • 236/244@.050"
    
  • .614/.597 w/ 1.7rr
    
  • 112 LSA
    

  [*]Victor Jr

  [*]Holley 950 HP

  [*]Stepped long tube headers (1 5/8" at the cylinder head, 1 3/4" primaries)

[Silver_69_Coupe 31]

My balanced and blueprinted 5.0 took about 8 Weeks. But part of that was waiting for me to provide a part. You may be able to push 500 but I wouldn't count on that big of a number 475 to 480 sounds closer to the number. It really depends on your tune also. with enough tweaking you may be be able to get a little more.

[maxum96 32]

it will be put on a engine dyno when complete. i'm hoping for 500 at the crank, but reality tells me 475hp.

 

if you have a guess, i'd love to hear it. the engine shop was telling me about 6 weeks, but i can see that turning into 12 weeks...

 

here are the core items

 

• 408 cubes (4" X 4.03")
  
• TFS iron High Port 192 heads (work by Fox Lake)
  
  • intake runner slightly opened up at the entry only
    

   

  • full exhaust port
    

   

  • bowls opened
    

   

  • area around exhaust valve opened to unshroud
    

   

  [*]10:1 comp

  [*]Hydraulic Roller

  • 236/244@.050"
    

   

  • .614/.597 w/ 1.7rr
    

   

  • 112 LSA
    

   

  [*]Victor Jr

  [*]Holley 950 HP

  [*]Stepped long tube headers (1 5/8" at the cylinder head, 1 3/4" primaries)

 

 

I think you should be in the low 500's hp range with that combo. Your cam is almost as big as mine. I'm running .622 lift with a little more duration than your's. Your motor is gonna sound good! Not sure what mufflers you plan to use, but here's an idea of what your's should sound like.

 

Little drive with my car,

 

Edited August 3, 2010 by maxum96

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

that does sound great maxum. what exhaust?

 

i'm considering the stainless Spintech Sportsman or Magnaflows. Not sure yet...

 

the machine shop will be doing the tune on the dyno since my lone real world experience was a 289...

[maxum96 32]

that does sound great maxum. what exhaust?

 

i'm considering the stainless Spintech Sportsman or Magnaflows. Not sure yet...

 

the machine shop will be doing the tune on the dyno since my lone real world experience was a 289...

 

 

Thanks for the compliment. I use Accufab headers with Flowmaster's American Thunder kit for 67-70 Mustangs. 2 1/2" mandrel bent pipe with Super 44 mufflers. Some people don't like Flowmasters. But I have been using them for 25 years and love them.

 

 

 

Here's what it sounds like at idle

 

Edited August 3, 2010 by maxum96

[Handegard 10]

interesting. did they all come with this spring? it seems like it should be there. it must slide in thru the hole. does some sort of clip hold it in? anyone have a good picture with this spring?

 

just for reference, here was my original showing where the black was located:

 

Both of mine have a spring here, if you still need the picture.

 

This has been one of my favorite threads. Your progress is exactly what I plan to do with all your body work, it's really nice to actually see it in advance ;)

[buening 63]

Mine was missing, so I went to the local hardware store and purchased a spring. I welded a washer to the parking brake housing that was just smaller than the handle rod, to retain the washer while acting somewhat like the original bushing did. I couldn't think of any other way of making a bushing for it. AFAIK there is no bushing or spring made for these parking brake mechanisms.

[6T9Mach1 12]

i'm almost ready to haul all of the motor pieces and parts up to the machine shop for machine work, assembly and tune. i decided to switch over to internal balance so i'm waiting for the replacement flywheel and damper.

 

it will be put on a engine dyno when complete. i'm hoping for 500 at the crank, but reality tells me 475hp.

 

if you have a guess, i'd love to hear it. the engine shop was telling me about 6 weeks, but i can see that turning into 12 weeks...

 

here are the core items

 

• 408 cubes (4" X 4.03")
  
• TFS iron High Port 192 heads (work by Fox Lake)
  
  • intake runner slightly opened up at the entry only
    
  • full exhaust port
    
  • bowls opened
    
  • area around exhaust valve opened to unshroud
    

  [*]10:1 comp

  [*]Hydraulic Roller

  • 236/244@.050"
    
  • .614/.597 w/ 1.7rr
    
  • 112 LSA
    

  [*]Victor Jr

  [*]Holley 950 HP

  [*]Stepped long tube headers (1 5/8" at the cylinder head, 1 3/4" primaries)

 

With a 408, 500hp is only 1.22 hp per cube which looks to be possible with what you have. The heads are probably too small for that many cubes (225 High Ports would have a cross section that is more in tune with what a 408 would need) but I also dont know what Fox Lake did to them nor do I know the full specs of the cam. I think you should reach your 500hp goal though. Intake and carb look to be in line with what that engine needs. Good luck with the build!

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

what other cam specs? valve timing? i tried to coax more details on the camshaft from the designer (for my curiosity) but he wouldn't give it up. oh well.

 

fox lake worked on the first 1.75" of the intake port. i believe the smallest cross section on the 192 HP was in the pushrod area. the smallest cross section is now 2.02" X 1.18" (2.38 sq" about 0.5" deep into the port)) . the entry at the gasket is 2.18" X 1.25" (2.72 sq"). The Victor junior (not port matched yet) measures 1.9" X 1.1" (2.09 sq"). they installed bronze sleeves in the intake pushrod holes because they had cut through into the pushrod area. (not sure if that is normal?)

 

the exhaust had full port work completed. the headers at the opening are 0.06" larger than the port on every side.

 

I had thought about switching over to the larger HP's. however after some research, the intake would have probably been the limiting factor. switching to a super victor would have added another 1" to the carb height making a shaker impossible. i could have the victor jr, fully ported, but it's just a big set of dominoes. the TKO and clutch can only handle so much power, fitting larger headers would have to be even more difficult and i'm not running a roll cage (i have a 6-point cage for an early mustang if anyone is interested).

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

thanks handegard. i had found an original up at the columbus spring swap so i was able to see what was missing on mine. it was easy to see why so many of these springs are probably missing. that plastic piece doesn't look that strong.

 

maxum may be interested in seeing a closeup picture of the spring if you have one though.

[6T9Mach1 12]

what other cam specs? valve timing? i tried to coax more details on the camshaft from the designer (for my curiosity) but he wouldn't give it up. oh well.

 

Who did the cam for you? You paid for it and they wont give you the specs for it? Thats fubar. I'd want duration at seat, .050" and .200" at the very least if I was buying a cam. Lot more to a cam lobe then .050" numbers.

 

I understand the whole domino problem when working on cars all too well; your combo should run well. You are right about the Super Victor probably being a better intake for the larger High Ports and we all know how tought it is getting any kind of tall intake to fit in these old cars.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

Who did the cam for you?

 

same as yours. i got it back in january. i asked last month for more detailed information about the lobe profiles (beyond the cam sheet) and that i wouldn't share the additonal information. he simply rattled off the same base numbers and told me he was also an engineer...

 

maybe i just didn't ask the right question.

[6T9Mach1 12]

His cam sheets have a lot to be desired; I wasnt impressed with the cam sheet at all. He does have an excellent reputation in the Mustang community and for making cars go fast. I havent had the chance to run mine yet but I will let you know when i get it going here in the next 2 weeks or so.

 

When I asked him he gave me the duration at the seat, .050" and .200" which give you a pretty good idea of how aggressive the lobe is, the estimated hp, peak hp and shift point and what vacuum the engine should pull. All important things that you need to know that should be on his cam card to begin with.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

here are some pics of the heads. this has been my only set of aftermarket heads, so i really have nothing to compare them too. i never really knew how much they opened them up. my memory tells me the windsor jr's were the only other cylinder head available when i got them.

 

i know the chambers are spec'd at 66cc. i have no idea what the runner volumes are. out of my curiosity i had made measurements using some telescoping gauges and dial calipers.

 

four locations on the intake runner which were the entry,smallest area at the pushrod location, 2.1" into the port and smallest location in the bowl.

 

each port varies slightly or my method of measurement varies...

 

intake:

entry: 2.180" X 1.235" (2.692 sq in)

pushrod: 2.035" X 1.195" (2.432 sq in)

2.1" into port: 1.585" X 1.477" (2.341 sq in)

bowl: 1.830" (2.630 sq in)

 

exhaust

exit: 1.540" X 1.290" (1.987 sq in)

exhaust bowl: 1.470" diameter (1.697 sq in)

 

so it looks like the smallest intake cross section is on the order of 2.341 sq in

averaging of these four values: 2.441 sq in

 

the victor jr measures: 1.9" X 1.1" (2.09 sq in)

 

 

 

 

 

i have to install spacers for the Cobra valve covers in order to clear the stud girdle (motorsport covers are for the machine shop only). i'm going machine them down as low as possible and clean up the edges once the shop has performed the final rocker adjustments and i get the motor back. i wanted to machine down the spacers as much as possible for looks, but i noticed that i will have a potential clearance issue with the snorkel if i don't. not a big deal, but just one more thing to deal with.

 

the block, heads, oil pan, timing cover, water pump and valve cover spacers will all be painted blue when i get the motor back from the build.

 

 

[Angel 24]

I hope you make like 550 hp. Because if you only make 475hp, things won't look good for me lol. I bought a set of TFS 170's back in April. With a 408, Im shooting for 400-450hp. Best wishes. Great build.

[6T9Mach1 12]

i have no idea what the runner volumes are. out of my curiosity i had made measurements using some telescoping gauges and dial calipers.

 

The first iron high port heads were only 180cc. Not sure when they switched over to 192cc's. Since the iron head needed more cooling capacity then an aluminum head they have a different water passage design then the aluminum high ports. Jay Allen, who knows these things inside and out, said that at about 215cc's you better be very careful about what you are doing as you will be getting thin near the water passages.

[6T9Mach1 12]

I hope you make like 550 hp. Because if you only make 475hp, things won't look good for me lol. I bought a set of TFS 170's back in April. With a 408, Im shooting for 400-450hp. Best wishes. Great build.

 

You should make 400+hp even if you would run a stock camshaft. Demon's engine will make some steam; high ports are a heck of a cylinder head design...the raised exhaust port just scares a lot of people away because your options for headers is about nill.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

i knew they were the 192 castings, i just didn't know how much they opened them up. very crude calculations and some scaling and i would say these are on the order of a 208-210 high port. i can see the bronze pushrod insert coming through in several of the intake ports.

 

i would hope the guy who did the work would know what he was doing. he originally worked at TFS. he claimed to have picked up a couple sets of blems as he was leaving TFS, thus i got these castings pretty cheap. also there really wasn't an aluminum option at the time, so the pain of porting iron was just the way it was.

 

if i hadn't had these heads and had all the work done and gotten the castings at the price i did, i would go with aluminum. i believe the weight savings on the front end would value added!

[1967Stang 10]

Hey BuckeyeDemon...I'm dying to see more pics. I have a 67 I am restoring and found this forum, Love all the work you are doing. I also have a 351w that is stroked out to 408 (still at machine shop). So we have a lot in common with our builds and I am waiting to see the next round of pics...keep up the fantastic work, its keeping the rest of us inspired to work harder on our stangs :)

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

thankyou.

 

are you the person that's building the 67 with a 408 and high ports that i've been exchanging emails with?

[1967Stang 10]

Nope..not me...sorry. I think I came across this forum about 2 months back, Im located in Jacksonville Fl. Have had my 67 for 5 years now. never did any welding and when I peeled back the carpet...well the rest is history..New Firewall, Upper and Lower Cowl, side cowls, full floor pan, rear quarter panels (Lower section), etc. I'm working on uploading all the new pics to a website, but for now here is a peak at the latest change which was the rear quarter lowers (Taken on my iPhone 4...not bad quality). Just wish my work was at your caliper

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

finished rebuilding the upper control arms.

 

removing the old shafts turned out to be quite a pain. i had to use a 6 foot piece of box tube to get the nuts to brake loose. i'm not sure if this is normal or not.

 

after media blasting and assembly of the new shafts (i pre-greased the threads), the parts were epoxied and then painted with rustoleum's professional series stainless steel paint and the perch was painted with Seymours stainless steel paint. i was hoping for more contrast but there isn't. they aren't nearly as bright as the pictures indicate. just a flash thing.

 

the shaft was painted with Eastwoods zinc phosphate paint and the nuts painted using Seymours Cast Blast paint.

 

i used some of the tips provided by Daze cars. i cut slots in the threads of the shafts to allow for grease to flow to all of the threads. in addition, i added the recommended offset. it took about a half turn on the shaft to move it by about 0.1" at the ~neutral position. the nuts were welded at a position that wouldn't create binding at the location of the shaft movement. i had to get another set of zerks because the one's provided were higher in profile and hit the front of the shock tower when i was test fitting (and this was after offsetting the arm by ~0.1".

 

the design of the upper control arms shafts seem very odd.

 

 

i cleaned up the upper control arms bumpers and battery tray. i had to patch one side on the this shock tower brace. these parts were sprayed (after epoxy) using NPD's "Slop Gray". I plan to use the "slop gray" i'm having mixed for the undercarriage on some of the alternate parts (bracket on the radiator support, and front bumper brackets) to give some contrast.

 

 

i chipped off some of the sound deadener to find a color on the original bracket.

 

 

i've also been attempting to detail the rear springs. i've been playing with the use of the commonly referenced "Gun Bluing" solutions to give the dark look. I've temporarily decided to not use paint on the rear springs and instead use the bluing to darken the spring and oil to try and keep them from rusting. i just felt as if the movement and rubbing of the springs and the clamps would just lead to scratched paint and rust anyways. hopefully it works out. so far this process seems to be a big PITA.

 

 

here is a picture of the lower leaves after media blasting, soaking in an acid and a final blast. i soaked them in an acid in an attempt to get every nook of rust in the pits out of the leaf that the media in the cabinet refused to remove.

 

here is an example of the lower ford leaf after media blasting, bluing and oil.

 

[stangme428 33]

looking great!! lots of hard work! cant wait to see the end result!:tongue_smilie:

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

i hate the way traction bars look, but felt as if i was going to need to use a set to keep wheel hop to a minimum. i don't want to run a super stiff set of springs in the back so i'm using what was considered the "heavy duty" springs for a 69 351W in combination with the caltrac bars. i had traded emails with calvert several months ago in an attempt to figure out if my frame rails would cause clearance issues. i had to simply pull the trigger and see for myself.

 

as it turns out, i didi and in the spot i was expecting. the lower bolt that holds the heim joint has a nut on the backside. i had to cut down the spacers and weld a nut on the inside to regain that space.

 

i also got the standard bracket with the two holes. the lower hole in general is probably better for traction but is a little more visible from the side, so in a compromise (potential traction vs looks) i decided to use the upper hole and trim off the excess. with the lower frame rails the brackets don't hang down any lower.

 

i don't think these will be too hideous and i can always unbolt them if i just don't like them. i originally had a set of Southside Machine Lift bars but the look would have been completely wrong for me.

 

 

here is a pic (obviously without a loaded car) of the approximate location of the modified brackets.

 

 

after trimming the lower hole away...

 

the back side where i trimmed the bolt. you can see where i had trimmed a spacer and welded a nut on.

 

on a side note i spent hours trying to use "gun bluing" solution to refinish the leaf springs. they look terrible because they have a tendency to have a brown tint and the colors just aren't consistent. i'm going to have to strip them again (much easier this time!) and try to paint them to look correct. live and learn.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

media blasted and painted 31 piece parts this weekend.

 

 

everything received 2 coats of DP before getting the respective topcoat's

 

 

you may recall, that i tried using a gun bluing technique that some people use. i could not get consistent coloring and in addition it wanted to have a brown tint. so i decided to strip them back down and paint.

 

after the DP i sprayed eastwoods Zinc Phosphate paint. I followed that by a very light mist of Duplicolor Dark Charcoal Metallic and a mist of satin clear (metallic and clear to replicate some of the sheen by the oil). you can compare the color to a picture posted earlier of the gun blued and oiled leaf.

 

paint markings on the leaf are correct for this application only. i still need to put the metal bands on the leaf spring assembly.

 

here is the finished set of caltrac bars after mods. i removed one of the extra shock mounts that would be used with a staggered shock car.

 

the caltracs come powder coated (need to use a grinder to remove!). unfortunately i wanted the shock mounts to be a steel color and i also made some mods, so the powder coat had to be removed.

 

some of the hardware on the Caltrac bars were stripped of the zinc coating and plated using a Zinc Phosphate solution (and oiled) in order to darken the fastener so it won't be so noticeable from the side of the car.

 

the front bushing is solid. you can't see it, but i drilled and tapped the bushing for a grease fitting.

 

 

 

the 1 1/8" sway bar had a very thick coating on it when i received it. quite a pain to remove. it was painted using 20% flattener. the clamps were painted using the stainless steel paint. green stripe is correct for my application.

 

the front springs need the yellow orange stripes applied.