Starter wont shut off looking for advice.

[tonyinsandiego 37]

HI guys,

 

I'm having an issue with my starter (starting circuit).  This is an intgermittent issue  but getting worse. Been stuck all day today.  When I turn on the ignition to the start side of the switch my starter occasionaly stays on.  Ive swapped out the starter solenoid (I think this problem caused the first solenoid to fail)  Problem is still there.  I tried swapping out the ignition switch (not the key switch but the contact part)  and I have the same issue.  On occasion Ive had the key out and had an oil light on (Both switch contacts did this).  This tells me int's in the ingnition / key switch.  I can order a new one but i'm not sure this is the issue and will resolve this.  Is there something else I should check or look at.  Is it possible its the regulator not shutting off?

 

Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

[manley 13]

Smack the solenoid with a screwdriver handle and see if it stops.  If so, it's sticking.  Buy a better quality piece.  I have not had any luck with the ones from Autozone and such places.

[tonyinsandiego 37]

DId replace the solenoid with a more expensive unit but I still have the problem.  I'm pretty confident it's not a solenoid issue or at least not now,  Tried two different solenoids then replaced with a brand new unit.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Well, you've done all the usual things. As you know it is either the relay or the switch controlling the relay. A short from the relay to the motor (cable touching the chassis, etc.) could draw too may amps and make the relay stick. Heat and vibration break down the insulation on the cables and these cars are 46 years old now. Check it at the relay, the motor and everywhere in between. If it turns out it was a short, replace the relay with a new one, since the contacts will have been damaged. Good luck.

[danno 128]

You can certainly bypass the key switch every time you start it. Turn the key on, and short between the battery + and the starter terminal (small wire) on the starter solenoid.  If the problem happens once when you start it this way, the key switch is oK.

 

It could also very likely be the starter drive unit.  The starter has a big electromagnet on top that pushes the gear from the starter into the flywheel.  if this is sticking, the starter will stay engauged when the engine starts. You can pull out the starter and examine  and test it by itself.

 

I am betting the key switch is ok, and the solenoid also. It is possible you have a short between the wire from the key to the solenoid and some other wire, but that is unlikely.

[Brian Conway 264]

You have done the usual stuff.  So my next move would to get the starter out and if OE and your going to keep it;  bench test and rebuild or NAPA for a replacement.  AES in Mission Gorge might be the  shop for a rebuild or exchange.  Brian

[1969_Mach1 333]

I was also thinking the starter.  If you end up replacing it.  I would replace it with a new style permanent magnet starter unless you want to keep it original.  Believe it or not, I went my local Ford dealer, the part number changed many times but I ended up with a new mini style permanent magnet starter.  The rewire between the original starter solenoid and the new starter was simple, but it came with instructions.  It works much better than the old style ever did.  I finally decided to make the change after destroying 4 original style starters from my local Napa store.

[Tgriffin91 27]

This happened to me a few times. It turned out to be a bad ground to the engine block. Might want to check that.

[tonyinsandiego 37]

Starter does sound like the next logical step.  This most likely is sticking.  This could potentially be two issues, my starter sticking and a bad key switch.  When I turned the car off the oil light was still on...This makes me think the key switch is still in the on position,  Will also check ground from the motor to the body.  I know the motor to battery is a good ground will check motor to the body tonight and possibly pull the starter, 

 

I'll keep you guys updated until this is completely resolved.  Thanks for the tips gents.

[tonyinsandiego 37]

All righty now.  Did a little troubleshooting today and I think the problem is most likely a weak factory alternator.,,,The hell you say,  Well  I do have an electric fan cooling a 351C with an optima battery,  Picked that battery for the quick recharges it's capable of but, the alternator has to keep Mr battery happy and charged, 

 

Lets say my battery drops to 11V and can pull in the starter contact but just not enough to turn the starter and said relay pulls in and heats up those contact points to the point it turns my optima battery into a relay starter contact welder???  But wait...there's more.  I Was able to recreate the oil light turning on by tapping the starter solenoid until the contact did the same thing...Keep in mind this is a brand new 2 day old starter relay. To fix this problem I'd need a larger capacity alternator to keep the battery happy with the fan running.  Now I have to question the starter relay....again.  So, do I go with Option A, low power alternator as the root of all evil that possibly killed another starter relay or option B I'm terrible at this and barking up the wrong tree, keep looking for the error of my ways? 

 

I no longer think the problem is in the key switch since I can recreate the oil light on the dash turning on or even the starter at this point because it appears to work as ford intended.  Okay gents please chime in with your thoughts.  Does this make sense?

 

By the way, I got the beast home Sunday by bypassing the solenoid (the brand new one) after a jump start and drove home with the starter lead taped up.  I have the battery on charge now so if this does make sense it should act normal...Whatever the hell that is lately.  My starter relay is now questionable,

 

Grounds are good to motor/frame and motor/battery.  The frame to motor I think could be a little thicker but, hell my original alternator is what?... 40-50 amps from the factory.  Certainly wasn't design for the future but, it can get up to 88 faster then any DoLorean.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

55 amp alt was standard unless it had ac. make sure the sol is grounded well also, poor ground here will cause it to stick in crank position.

[danno 128]

Where did you come up with such a cocka-manie reason?   It is wild enough, it could be true! You need to monitor the voltage during these episodes.  Run two wires from the battery terminals directly to a voltmeter inside the car, so you know what it is all the time.  If this problem occurs when the battery is low, you could be onto something. But if it happens when the battery is over 12 volts before starting, then maybe not.

 

After you have shown that it occurs at high ( or normal) voltage, then monitor the voltage on the wire from the solenoid to the starter.  If it goes to zero volts when this happens, it has to be the starter. I still put my money on the starter drive ....

[1969_Mach1 333]

I can be wrong but I don't see how low voltage or a poor ground can cause this issue.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

Where did you come up with such a cocka-manie reason?   It is wild enough, it could be true! You need to monitor the voltage during these episodes.  Run two wires from the battery terminals directly to a voltmeter inside the car, so you know what it is all the time.  If this problem occurs when the battery is low, you could be onto something. But if it happens when the battery is over 12 volts before starting, then maybe not.

 

After you have shown that it occurs at high ( or normal) voltage, then monitor the voltage on the wire from the solenoid to the starter.  If it goes to zero volts when this happens, it has to be the starter. I still put my money on the starter drive ....

 

From the been there over the years files.

[tonyinsandiego 37]

This is certainly all conjecture at this point and it certainly does sound way out there.  My thinking is a relay requires a certain voltage to hold in the contacts.  Imagine if the voltage is low enough to pull in the contact but not strong enough to hold the contact tight enough to seal the contacts hard.  I'll have resistance in the contacts and with a high load (say like a starter) that high current would weld my loosely closed contact together.

 

I think this is exactly how a poor ground or low voltage can cause a relay to stick in this way.  I'm interested in why you think this can't happen.  I'm chasing this ghost because everything else is checking out okay and this happened with a bran new sparkling starter relay.  I've actually tried three different relays.  I had to eliminate something.  It's either this crazy stupid idea or the starter.  Changed starter relay and ignition switch (not the key part).

 

I think Danno has the right idea of checking voltages across the starter relay coil and across the starter.  I did charge the battery for 24 hours on a trickle charge and tested the starter circuit and the starter was certainly a lot stronger then it sounded on Sunday and it had about 12.2 volts across the battery.  I'll have to measure the drop when the relay kicks in and the starter is turning the motor.  I think my fan is killing the battery because the alternator isn't keeping up with the current demand thus giving me this problem.  It certainly does sound cocka-manie...I agree with that.  Right now this makes the most sense to me but, I can easily be talked out of it.  Additional thoughts?

 

Ground to the starter solenoid is good.  Basically a stock set up with two sheet metal bolts through the engine bay near the battery.  Appears to be a solid ground.  Battery drops to 10.1 volts from 12.2volts when cranking.  Does anyone know the drop on battery when there motor is turning over by the starter?  Am I in the ball park at full charge?

[Brian Conway 264]

My fully charged batteries read between 12.5 and 12.7. Brian

[danno 128]

If you are suspicious about the alternator not keeping up with the demand from the fan, it is simple to check. Put a voltmeter on your battery, and have engine warm and running.  At fast idle, read the voltage on your battery, then unplug the fan and see if the voltage jumps up a bit. 

 

Another thing to consider is if you have a bad diode in the alternator.  It will put out enough power to keep the car running normally, but not enough to run the fan and/or lights.  You can have it load tested at a lot of shops for free.

 

I am not sure what the battery voltage drops to when cranking the motor.  I can measure it in my car and get back to you later on it.  I know it does depend on how good your battery is. A nice new and strong battery would not allow it to drop as far as a weak older battery. When yours drops to 10.1, that seems reasonable. Like Brain mentioned, though, 12.2 is a bit low for a fully charged battery.

 

One more thing to check when the engine has been running for a while and then shut off. Feel the wires from the alternator to the battery.  Those wires might be warm or hot.  If they are, you have a wire problem. Also check the connector in the wire to the alternator.  Those also can get hot.   Heat indicates it has resistance, and resistance can cause you to never get a full charge, and not allow the alternator to keep up with the power needed to run your fan.

[danno 128]

From the been there over the years files.

 I was referring to the cocha-manie reason from Tony, not from you.  Mach1, yours was actually reasonable....   I know I certainly also have my share stupid reasons.

[Ridge Runner 1,113]

I believe it is possible for a solenoid to stick is it isn't getting enough voltage .especially if it arcs the contacts . Does the starter seem to drag or turn slow when it sticks ? 

 

My gold 69 would stick the solenoid sometimes ,and usually at the most embarrassing times .It was a new replacement and i would have to get out and hit it to make it stop    .I finally took it out and found a good used original to replace it with .i broke open the sticking one and the contacts look like i had been welding with it .

 

 

It is probably crappy materials from over seas that causes them to arc and stick .

[Rsmach1 71]

Look for a Borg Warner S63 solenoid, they are gray instead of black, and seem to be the best.

[Brian Conway 264]

...or go to a dealership and see if they have one of these ? I think this may have been the last one in San Diego. Brian

[Ridge Runner 1,113]

Oh ,you better hang on to that .I have a bunch of ford condensers and points still in the motor craft boxes .I had a bunch of ford brake shoes and clutch disks and pressure plates still in the ford boxes .I used most of the pressure plates and disks already ,they are so smooth compared to about anything you can but now days . I still have a few of the ford brake shoes .

[Rsmach1 71]

No he should sell it to me for 20 bucks lol.

[Brian Conway 264]

For the real deal the price, $47, wasn't that bad. Brian

[tonyinsandiego 37]

Here is a update on the starter issue. 

 

I changed the alternator to a 3G set up (130 Amps),  When the fan kicks in my battery stays at a constant 13.7 volts.  Before the alternator swap, my fan would kick in and drop voltage from 11.7 to 12.0 volts.  With my fan on and any night driving my battery would drop quick.  The old alternator wasn't up to taking on the electric fan.  I haven't been stuck in weeks...well with the 69 stang anyway.  The 66 is another ball game,  I was stuck twice last week with 66 stang (no spark on the freeway.  Been working on that lately.  It's always something.

 

The 69 is running great.  Just in time for me to pull the transmission and swap in the AOD.  What can possibly go wrong...