Another 408 Stroker/Engine Build Question

[LiLMike 42]

I have a 351w with about 89K miles on it. I would like to pump it up to around 500HP. I thought I would go with a 408 Stroker. It probably will never see the track but I do want it to go fast from stop light to stop light and have a mean lope to turn heads when I pull into a car show/cruise-in. I’m thinking of concentrating on low end torque. I have a couple of questions and need your opinions guys. Could I use my original block for this? Also can I just get a stroker kit somewhere? Any recommendations on kits or how to progress from here? Thanks in advance.

 

Mike

[Alan_Mac 48]

Looks like it is in a 69.  A 69 block is perfect to stroke.  My 70 block is a 418w  Alan 

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

you probably know this, but just because you purchase a kit, doesn't mean you can just bolt it in and go.  the parts need checked (more than just plastigauge) and may require rework.

 

just be cognizant of the deck height when ordering parts.

[LiLMike 42]

Buckeye, What do you mean by deck height? Is that the height of the piston in reference to the flat surface that the head mounts to? I know this isn't a bolt in process. I'll have an engine builder put it all together. I know there will be some machining to do and all. I just need a good starting point.

 

Yes Alan, it's a 69. I was hoping to save some money and use my block. Wasn't sure if it would hold up.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

deck height is the measurement from the crank centerline to the surface of the block.  the early blocks, like the 69 was a little unique and were nominally 9.48".  however, things like tolerances will result in a variation around that value. 

[barnett468 418]

.

are you on a budget?

 

a true 500 hp and good low end power are not synonymous unless you have a 500 ci engine.

 

The following will fit a 9.480 deck . . there is nothing shorter available off the shelf . . if your deck is less than 9.480, you can run the pistons above the deck by up to .020" then simply use a thicker head gasket..

 

 

1.235 ch

 

2.000†= Crank stroke divided x 2

 

6.250†= rod length

 

9.485 = total

 

9.480 = block height

 

0.005†= piston above deck

 

 

If you use pistons with 1.230 compression height and the rods i posted, the pistons will be at 0 deck.

 

 

These are all the 1.230 compression height pistons.

 

 http://www.summitracing.com/search/make/ford/engine-size/5-8l-351/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor/department/engines-components/part-type/pistons/compression-distance-in/1-230-in?N=4294951343%2B4294951338%2B4294951337%2B4294949512%2B4294914196%2B4294859230

 

 

These are all the 1.235 pistons.

 

 http://www.summitracing.com/search/make/ford/engine-size/5-8l-351/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor/department/engines-components/part-type/pistons/compression-distance-in/1-235-in?N=4294951343%2B4294951338%2B4294951337%2B4294949512%2B4294914196%2B4294819488

 

 

6.250 rods

 

http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/connecting-rods/make/ford/engine-size/5-8l-351/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor/connecting-rod-length-center-to-center-in/6-250-in?N=4294925198%2B4294951343%2B4294951338%2B4294951337%2B4294880345&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending

 

 

 

heres a deal on thicker head gaskets if you need them . . rsmach brought this brand to my attention.

 

http://m.summitracing.com/cart/add/sce-536086

 

jegs has them too

 

http://www.jegs.com/

 

 

you dont really need a forged crank for your app.

 

the kit below will work for your app and it is one of the lowest priced kits around . . it has cast crank forged I beam rods and forged pistons.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-16123040/overview/make/ford

 

 

HEADS

 

as far as heads go, the afr 185 and 190 and trick flow 190 11r heads will get you there.

 

 

INTAKE

 

Eddy rpm air gap for good bottom end.

 

.

[LiLMike 42]

Great info. Barnett, what is the 1.235 ch in your reply? Something else, isn't that a little scary for the pistons to be above deck and use a thicker head gasket? Just wondering.

 

I haven't searched your recommendations yet but I was looking at a budget of around 5K. Not sure if that is realistic or not. Guess that is why all the questions. Again, thanks alot!

 

Mike

[Max Power 74]

.

are you on a budget?

 

a true 500 hp and good low end power are not synonymous unless you have a 500 ci engine.

 

The following will fit a 9.480 deck . . there is nothing shorter available off the shelf . . if your deck is less than 9.480, you can run the pistons above the deck by up to .020" then simply use a thicker head gasket..

This. Also, a mean lope is not synonmous with low end torque. Pure displcament often is.

[Max Power 74]

Great info. Barnett, what is the 1.235 ch in your reply? Something else, isn't that a little scary for the pistons to be above deck and use a thicker head gasket? Just wondering.

 

I haven't searched your recommendations yet but I was looking at a budget of around 5K. Not sure if that is realistic or not. Guess that is why all the questions. Again, thanks alot!

 

Mike

5K is on the cheap side. You will spend half that on AFR heads alone.

 

I have about 5k into my 393, but I got a set of Performer RPM heads for $1000 less than AFRs, and I went with a kit that had lower end rods.

[Jimjific 23]

Max,

 

Are you happy with the Performer RPM heads and your build?

 

Jim

[Max Power 74]

Max,

 

Are you happy with the Performer RPM heads and your build?

 

Jim

I am, although I was happier when I used the Performer RPM cam with it as part of the top end kit. That cam was pretty lopey, 10" vacuum at idle, and performed great but was a little tough to tune with an automatic and power brakes, so I converted to a roller cam and went a little conservate, losing some power. If I had to do it again I might go a little more aggressive in the cam area, as I will eventually be converting to a 5 speed.

[RPM 1,190]

CH is compression height. That is the measurement from the center line of the piston wrist pin to the top of the piston. I would think $5k would be in the ballpark. Just price out your pieces or kit, add machining, balancing, gaskets and such.

[Rsmach1 71]

As Barnett468 stated, 500hp, and a lumpy cam doesn't really work for stop light to stop light performance, unless you want to leave the light at 3k rpm. Let's start with what you have, do you have power brakes? Auto or manual? If auto is it stock? Rear end gearing? Open diff or posi? All this info is important to know, so we can help you put together a "package" to get you what you want. There is alot more to it than just dropping in a big cube high hp engine.

[MikeStang 247]

AFR 205s are gonna be better suited to a 408/418 but the 185s will work also...I have about 6k in my 408 with custom ground cam

[MikeStang 247]

I like custom cams because you can get exactly what u want lol

[barnett468 418]

isn't that a little scary for the pistons to be above deck and use a thicker head gasket? Just wondering.

 

 

not as long as its not more than around .020" as i mentioned and not on a 7000 rpm engine . . the top of the pistons often have a chamfer/radius that extends at least .010" down the side of the piston so this area has nothing to do with stabilizing the piston in the bore anyway.

 

do i recommend doing this...no.

 

have i ever seen it damage an engine...no.

 

your other option would be to buy a set of custom made pistons for around $800.00 or more.

[barnett468 418]

I like custom cams because you can get exactly what u want lol

 

custom cams have come down in price and they are definitely a good option.

[barnett468 418]

.

ok, your engine must be matched to your gears.

 

what are your rear gears?

 

are you willing to change them? . . this will cost around $800.00 . . if you want a posi, add around $500.00.

 

do you drive for long periods of time at 65 mph or more?

 

do you want a tire roaster or just decent acceleration?

 

do you want a mild, moderate or nasty idle?

 

if you need a new exhaust, add around $650.00 without headers.

.

[barnett468 418]

.

Crank, rods, pistons. $1300.00 . . have the dimensions checked as suggested.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-16123040/overview/make/ford

 

 

clevite P series crank and rod bearings . . $100.00

 

cam bearings . . $60.00

 

 

comp cams xe series cams . . $124.00 . . I would look at the xe274h . . must be used with 1.72 ratio rocker arms

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-35-246-3/overview/make/ford

 

 

scorpion 1.72 rocker arms for 3/8 studs . . $221.00

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1019bl/overview/make/ford

 

 

afr 185 heads $1594.00 . . these will give you around 9.9 compression with .030 over bore and the 26 cc pistons in the kit above

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/afr-1388/overview/make/ford

 

 

eddy rpm 190 cc . . $1460 . . the summit ad is incorrect . . these are not 170 cc.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-60259

 

 

comp cams magnum push rods . . length needs to be determined . . $105.00

 

http://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/comp-cams-magnum-pushrods/pushrod-tube-diameter/5-16-in/for-use-with-guideplates/yes/quantity/sold-as-a-set-of-16?N=300348%2B4294887772%2B4294886973%2B4294943488&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending

 

 

cloyes true roller timing chain . . $35.00

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-1135?seid=srese1&gclid=CI3-vdOUu8UCFdORHwodPn8AjA

 

 

 

melling oil pump . . $75.00

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel-10687

 

 

 

oil pump drive shaft . . $20.00

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-154-7901/overview/make/ford

 

 

gasket set . . $80.00

 

 

crank damper . . around $150.00.

 

 

You need to determine if you need a 3 bolt or 4 bolt for your pullies . . it will be a 28 oz one.

 

 

mill block so pistons are .003" to .005" below the surface unless they are higher than that . . around $180.00

 

 

balance engine with damper and flywheel . . around $200.00

 

 

clean engine . . around 40.00$

 

 

bore engine . . around $200.00

 

 

install cam bearings . . around $80.00

 

 

miscellaneous . . $200.00

 

 

assemble engine . . ?

.

.

[LiLMike 42]

I was hoping to keep the price around 5-6K. I have an FMX automantic transmission whith an open 9" rear with PS and power disc brakes. With the engine build I was going to go with the Hydrotech brakes. Running the brakes off of the PS pump will eleviate the low vacuum loss. I was thinking about  an AODE or 4R70W tranny with a posi rear geared about 3:70.

 

Like I said, I would like a nasty moderate to nasty idle with something to light up the tires but don't need to smoke them for a block or do one of those smoke screen burn outs. Guess I just want to show off and turn heads. I know I need the engine built first so I can match the torque converter to it. After the engine is complete I was going to install it and convert to the hydrotech brakes, My next step would to be convert the tranny and redo the rear end. At some point I'll have to install headers and get a new exhaust.

 

I thought the engine would be a good starting point. I get confused abou tmatching up all the parts IE: cam heads, internals, intake and all.

 

I do greatly appreaciate all the input from you guys. Thanks again.

 

Mike

[MikeStang 247]

If you can afford it do the 4R70W swap, its money well spent :-)

I'm currently running a 408 with 4R70W and 3.25 gears....car gets awesome gas mileage and will roast the tires as far as you want it to LOL.

I will be doing a gear swap tho so that once I get it to hook a bit better I will be able to make better use of the power.

[shaun071 62]

Personally I'd plan the entire drivetrain first so it all works together. Nothing is worse to drive than a cammy engine with highway gears and stock stall. I'm setting the rear up first with a trutrac and lower gears and driving with a stock 302/C4 until I get my 351C/AOD combo built up.

Is there any reason you're going for the 408 rather than a 351? If I understand it right you want something that sounds mean and can lay a little rubber- a well built 351 will do the same thing without the complication of a stroker. Just my 2 cents.

[Alan_Mac 48]

http://www.coasthigh.com/Ford-408W-Reverse-Dome-22cc-Scat-Based-Kit-p/12360-sca-600-f408-1.htm 

 

This is a good rotating assembly at a good price 

 

Or you could get this and just add 

 

http://www.coasthigh.com/12360-SF-F408W-SB-p/12360-sf-f408w-sb.htm

[Max Power 74]

Is there any reason you're going for the 408 rather than a 351? If I understand it right you want something that sounds mean and can lay a little rubber- a well built 351 will do the same thing without the complication of a stroker. Just my 2 cents.

 

Other than minor clearancing near the oil pump, stroker kits are not complicated at all. When I needed a replacement crank and built my 393, the stroker kit was actually way easier to buy turnkey parts, like in the links above. Plus, longer stroke motors tend to make more torque, and that's power for the street. What's not to love?

[barnett468 418]

I was hoping to keep the price around 5-6K. I have an FMX automantic transmission whith an open 9" rear with PS and power disc brakes. With the engine build I was going to go with the Hydrotech brakes. Running the brakes off of the PS pump will eleviate the low vacuum loss. I was thinking about  an AODE or 4R70W tranny with a posi rear geared about 3:70.

 

Like I said, I would like a nasty moderate to nasty idle with something to light up the tires but don't need to smoke them for a block or do one of those smoke screen burn outs. Guess I just want to show off and turn heads. I know I need the engine built first so I can match the torque converter to it. After the engine is complete I was going to install it and convert to the hydrotech brakes, My next step would to be convert the tranny and redo the rear end. At some point I'll have to install headers and get a new exhaust.

 

I thought the engine would be a good starting point. I get confused abou tmatching up all the parts IE: cam heads, internals, intake and all.

 

I do greatly appreaciate all the input from you guys. Thanks again.

 

Mike

 

i matched up the parts for you including compression . . i posted the exact parts to buy with links and part numbers . . i posted the prices, that's what they cost . . there is no cheaper deal.

 

you need 3.40 gears with that set up and around a 2200 rpm stall converter if you want to roast the tires . . you could get away with 3.23.

 

the carb you can use is a quick fuel ss750vsf.

 

more power could be had with more money and afr 195 heads and a roller cam.

 

.