Transmission decision, I need opinions

[panteramatt 1]

I wanna get rid of the FMX in my 69. I really miss have a manual but I just can justify the cost of the swap. As far as I can tell, it would cost around $6-$7000 to do a manual swap with a good transmission and about $1000 for a 4R70W. So I just want opinions for or against the 2. $ plays a big role here but maybe you guys can tell me a cheaper route for a manual conversion. What fitment problems would I face for either? Any other advice would be GREATLY appreciated.

[chillininnh 21]

6-7K for a manual swap? Maybe if you drop your car off at Keisler and you buy lunch. It can be done for much less than that if you do it yourself, if I can do it anyone can.

[panteramatt 1]

Yea I got that quote from Keisler. But if you add it all up for a decent tranny, I got close to that too. Am I missing something? I figure around $1500 for a good used TKO or t-56 plus pedals, hydraulic clutch, clutch, and whatever else.

[LindenBruce 27]

Well, the 4R70W is a fully electronic controlled AOD trans. So if it's the gear banging you're missing you won't get your fix that way. You could go with a straight AOD and a manual valve body so you can get back to gear banging. B

[Restomod 10]

Everything I see, and I have been looking a lot would be just under 3500 depending on a few things. That's just parts, if you cant do it or know someone who can for beer I would imagine the price jumps a lot. You also didnt say Clev or Wind but that would just be the bell housing anyway

 

A few places have kits all around the same price with the tranny but all the kits always seem to be missing one thing or another for it to be really complete.

 

 

Some links I have been accruing along the way in my searches.

 

 

http://www.mpsautosalvage.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=4240

 

http://www.moderndriveline.com/catalog/custom_mustang_sb_T5_kit.htm

 

http://americanpowertrain.com/i-8521551-pro-fit-t5-installation-kit-for-1965-73-mustang-cougar.html

 

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/09/t5swap/index.php

[Mike65 476]

I purchased a used low milage T-5 from someone on VMF, bought the crossmember, & pricing the rest of the stuff off www.modermdriveline.com comes to less then $1500.00 & I will do the swap myself.

[redmach69 10]

I believe in keeping a car the way it was built, but lots of guys do this change. In my car a previous owner pulled the FMX and installed a 4 speed, I am still trying to sort out the cobbled up clutch linkage etc. The key, I think, is to be very careful, the guy that did mine cut the hole in the wrong place on the firewall, and used a collection of different year parts. By the way, if you go ahead, I would be interested in the complete auto set-up, trans, shifter linkage, etc if you would sell it.

[Restomod 10]

Mike I think I am going that route too. If you have the time and wait for a deal to come along I think it is doable as far as cost. I am torn though as you really have to know the seller or know the car it came out of and the mileage? If it is skipping a gear the gear itself wont be in a rebuild kit and I am pretty sure you could end up spending more for the gears and syncros than a remanufactured one from one those sites?

 

Are you going to crack it open and freshen it up or just put it in? My problem is someone put in a c6 in my car. I really want something with overdrive for longer cruises, I miss manuals a little but dont mind mt auto. Hard pill to swallow with that much cost to put in a t5 just for the OD. And finding a decent AOD doesnt seem to add up to whole lot less, which seems silly to go from a c6 to an Aod.

[panteramatt 1]

Yes its a windsor as there wasnt a clevand in a mustang in 69. Thanx for tbe links. I will be doing this swap myself. Probally even be making my own crossmember unless the ine i need is cheap.

[panteramatt 1]

I believe in keeping a car the way it was built, but lots of guys do this change. In my car a previous owner pulled the FMX and installed a 4 speed, I am still trying to sort out the cobbled up clutch linkage etc. The key, I think, is to be very careful, the guy that did mine cut the hole in the wrong place on the firewall, and used a collection of different year parts. By the way, if you go ahead, I would be interested in the complete auto set-up, trans, shifter linkage, etc if you would sell it.

 

I would definitly sell it. Where r u located? Its in perfect condition.

[panteramatt 1]

Mike I think I am going that route too. If you have the time and wait for a deal to come along I think it is doable as far as cost. I am torn though as you really have to know the seller or know the car it came out of and the mileage? If it is skipping a gear the gear itself wont be in a rebuild kit and I am pretty sure you could end up spending more for the gears and syncros than a remanufactured one from one those sites?

 

Are you going to crack it open and freshen it up or just put it in? My problem is someone put in a c6 in my car. I really want something with overdrive for longer cruises, I miss manuals a little but dont mind mt auto. Hard pill to swallow with that much cost to put in a t5 just for the OD. And finding a decent AOD doesnt seem to add up to whole lot less, which seems silly to go from a c6 to an Aod.

Dont gk aod. Go 4r70w. Way better tranny.

[Restomod 10]

Yes its a windsor as there wasnt a clevand in a mustang in 69. Thanx for tbe links. I will be doing this swap myself. Probally even be making my own crossmember unless the ine i need is cheap.

 

Yeah sorry about that, missed the 69 in your first post. There are a few more kits out there.

 

Ron Morris has a crossmember but not sure your definition of cheap lol? That cm is sold at CJ Pony for about the same price and is included in their kit too...

 

http://www.ronmorrisperformance.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=RMP&Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=Trans_Parts

 

First link with a tranny, second without but see how in this one you gotta find a pedal on your own? Always a part or two short in every kit.

 

http://www.cjponyparts.com/t5-transmission-conversion-kit-deluxe-289-302-351w-c-1968/p/T5CK12/

 

http://www.cjponyparts.com/t5-transmission-conversion-kit-supreme-289-302-351w-c-1968/p/T5CK17/

[PaleRider 12]

Just another option. I have a manual valve body (aka shift kit) in my c4 with a ratchet shifter. Kind of best of both worlds. Although a another gear would be nice.

[Mike65 476]

Mike I think I am going that route too. If you have the time and wait for a deal to come along I think it is doable as far as cost. I am torn though as you really have to know the seller or know the car it came out of and the mileage? If it is skipping a gear the gear itself wont be in a rebuild kit and I am pretty sure you could end up spending more for the gears and syncros than a remanufactured one from one those sites?

 

Are you going to crack it open and freshen it up or just put it in? My problem is someone put in a c6 in my car. I really want something with overdrive for longer cruises, I miss manuals a little but dont mind mt auto. Hard pill to swallow with that much cost to put in a t5 just for the OD. And finding a decent AOD doesnt seem to add up to whole lot less, which seems silly to go from a c6 to an Aod.

 

I knew the guy I was buying the T-5 from & the car had low milage, it was hit in the rear. I am probably just going to put it in, but I will decide that when I get to that point. I am doing it because I miss having a manual trans. I am not doing it just to get the O.D.

[signal20gsxr 10]

My car had a C4 before my swap. It had a shift kit and a 2200rpm stall converter in it. It was okay but boring for the most part. Plus driving on the interstate- well I never looked forward to it. I was going to build an AOD for it because at the time I need to change out my pedal assemble which was just to much $$$. As soon as I saw that I could add a clutch pedal to my existing pedal assemble I started looking for T5's.

 

I found two used 4 cylinder T5's with a 302 bell for $125 locally. Then I ordered a Z-spec gear set for $500, a rebuild kit- $250, and a steeda shifter $100. So I had close to a $1K into my T-5 but that's $500 cheaper than a new one. Then I needed a flywheel- $250, A good clutch- $350, spacer plate, driveshaft-$200, crossmember, clutch cable, and a clutch pedal from modern driveline. It cost a little more than I had planned on spending but it was worth it IMHO. I love driving the car so much more now! I hate slush boxes. I am getting 19mph on average opposed to 13. I think I spent around $2K total doing the swap and it looks pretty stock from the inside. I used a Hurst chome stick. It fit my current exhaust set up as well. Plus I was able to get rid of my vacuum secondary carb and go with a double pumper!

 

 

 

If you go with a standard TKO your going to have tunnel clearance issues. There are crossmembers that drop the transmission down but then your pinion angle is off and you will have to address that. I am not sure how a T56 fits but I think it actually fits better than a TKO. Keisler has many options that fit really well but as already mentioned the price is way up there.

 

If your going to go with a T5 and make some power go with an A5 or a Gforce gear set. I only recommend these options if your able to build the unit yourself from a good core. The Gforce gears are not quite as strong but with leaf spring suspension it doesn't shock the gears as bad so it shouldn't be an issue.

 

One other option they did make toploaders that had overdrives (3 speed with OD) they are rare but they are around. Truck guys love them as they are pretty strong.

 

I see that the controllers for the 4R70W's are just under $800. Thats not bad. If you get a good used or rebuilt $4R70W for $1k you still might need a different driveshaft, trans yoke,cross member and shifter linkage. So its really comes down to what you want. It might be a little cheaper to go with the 4R70W but if you want to bang gears I would spend the extra money to bang gears. A couple of things to consider, wiring it up. You will have to install a TPS on your carb as well as one or two more sensors. Another is that most factory vehicles that have the 4R70w's shift around 4500-5500rpms. If your going to be spinning it up to 6-6500 don't be surprised if a stock one is going to develop some issues. Ford was always making upgrades to this transmission and even the last few years of production they were cracking separator plates because they removed some of the reinforcement plates off of the back side of the valve body.

 

 

Just my two cents.

[Restomod 10]

I knew the guy I was buying the T-5 from & the car had low milage, it was hit in the rear. I am probably just going to put it in, but I will decide that when I get to that point. I am doing it because I miss having a manual trans. I am not doing it just to get the O.D.

 

 

Thanks Mike, when you come across another one like that give me shout on NYM!!!! I have no friends so I am not expecting find somebody I know with that is for sure lol.

 

Pantera sorry for hijacking your thread.

[redmach69 10]

Hi, I am located in NC, so shipping cost may be high. As far as the swap goes I think if done right it is doable. The real problem with mine is some bubba peiced it together, and as I said I like my stuff original. Also not thrilled with the cleveland in place of the windsor, or the black interior where it used to be red. But hey, no rust. :laugh:

[panteramatt 1]

My car had a C4 before my swap. It had a shift kit and a 2200rpm stall converter in it. It was okay but boring for the most part. Plus driving on the interstate- well I never looked forward to it. I was going to build an AOD for it because at the time I need to change out my pedal assemble which was just to much $$$. As soon as I saw that I could add a clutch pedal to my existing pedal assemble I started looking for T5's.

 

I found two used 4 cylinder T5's with a 302 bell for $125 locally. Then I ordered a Z-spec gear set for $500, a rebuild kit- $250, and a steeda shifter $100. So I had close to a $1K into my T-5 but that's $500 cheaper than a new one. Then I needed a flywheel- $250, A good clutch- $350, spacer plate, driveshaft-$200, crossmember, clutch cable, and a clutch pedal from modern driveline. It cost a little more than I had planned on spending but it was worth it IMHO. I love driving the car so much more now! I hate slush boxes. I am getting 19mph on average opposed to 13. I think I spent around $2K total doing the swap and it looks pretty stock from the inside. I used a Hurst chome stick. It fit my current exhaust set up as well. Plus I was able to get rid of my vacuum secondary carb and go with a double pumper!

 

 

 

If you go with a standard TKO your going to have tunnel clearance issues. There are crossmembers that drop the transmission down but then your pinion angle is off and you will have to address that. I am not sure how a T56 fits but I think it actually fits better than a TKO. Keisler has many options that fit really well but as already mentioned the price is way up there.

 

If your going to go with a T5 and make some power go with an A5 or a Gforce gear set. I only recommend these options if your able to build the unit yourself from a good core. The Gforce gears are not quite as strong but with leaf spring suspension it doesn't shock the gears as bad so it shouldn't be an issue.

 

One other option they did make toploaders that had overdrives (3 speed with OD) they are rare but they are around. Truck guys love them as they are pretty strong.

 

I see that the controllers for the 4R70W's are just under $800. Thats not bad. If you get a good used or rebuilt $4R70W for $1k you still might need a different driveshaft, trans yoke,cross member and shifter linkage. So its really comes down to what you want. It might be a little cheaper to go with the 4R70W but if you want to bang gears I would spend the extra money to bang gears. A couple of things to consider, wiring it up. You will have to install a TPS on your carb as well as one or two more sensors. Another is that most factory vehicles that have the 4R70w's shift around 4500-5500rpms. If your going to be spinning it up to 6-6500 don't be surprised if a stock one is going to develop some issues. Ford was always making upgrades to this transmission and even the last few years of production they were cracking separator plates because they removed some of the reinforcement plates off of the back side of the valve body.

 

 

Just my two cents.

 

Thanx that helps a LOT. Is there a writeup about adding a clutch pedal? Also, are you saying that astro is better than the G-force?

[Max Power 74]

Yes its a windsor as there wasnt a clevand in a mustang in 69. Thanx for tbe links. I will be doing this swap myself. Probally even be making my own crossmember unless the ine i need is cheap.

 

While clevelands weren't available in 69, there sure are a lot of 69s with clevelands in them now.

[signal20gsxr 10]

From everything I have read the general consensous is that most people that have used both say the A5 is stronger than the Gforce. The down side is that I have herd that the A5 set does have some wine to it because of the tooth angle. Understand that most of these people drag race fox bodies with slicks, aftermarket control arms that usually have solid bushings on one or both ends, stage 3 clutches and are making good HP and Torque. So the gears get shocked very hard. Remove one or two of above items and your eliminating a lot of stress on the gears. I put a 385HP 351w crate motor in a fox that had a standard T5 behind it and it out lasted the motor. It only had a king cobra clutch, aftermarket upper and lower control arms with poly bushings and street tires. So it just spun. I think a Gforce set would be just fine for your application. Depending on what your doing with the car a Z-spec gear set might work fine as well.

 

Adding the clutch pedal was very easy. On mine the housings that holds the plastic/nylon bushing for the brake pedal shaft were loose in the main bracket. So I got the roller ones and tack welded them in place. The new clutch pedal comes with a new shaft. I bought a manual brake pedal pad and cut off a couple of inches off of the left side of the brake pedal so it would be the same as a brake pedal for a manual. I also cut off the bracket where the factory return spring would attach to on the new pedal. Have to do the same with an original one. Remove the rubber stop, Slide the new pivot shaft through, put the new clutch pedal on, then nut and tighten.

 

I have used the modern driveline cable conversion on two different 69's. One was a factory 3 speed and mine which was an auto. I like it. Its cheap, (compared to a hydraulic system) and it works. Its easily adjustable. I have owned 2 fox bodies and it pretty much feels the same as them.

 

Feel free to PM me if you have any more questions.

[buening 63]

I have about $2700 in my T56 conversion, but I chose to go fully hydraulic which added about $600 to the cost.This is using a used Cobra T56 but everything else except the pedals was new. Basically I justified the amount I saved on trolling the classifieds buying new parts at a discount to be used on spending more for hydraulics. You can save a ton by having patience and buying items from forum classifieds and ebay. Just depends on your patience and if you want to piece things together or drop more $$ and get something in kit form.

 

A T5 will be fine behind a stock 351w. When you get to stroking the motor and really increasing the horsepower is when you get into trouble, as well as putting slicks on the car.

 

With that said, the only benefit of the T56 over the T5 is that the extra gear eliminates the large RPM drop between 4th and 5th gear on the T5. The T56 weighs more and is larger, which brings driveline angle, trans tunnel clearance, and shifter location issues into play.

 

I look at the TKO as somewhat like a beefier T5 with slightly different gear ratios (not quite as simple as that). I typically gauge the T5 as withstanding 300 ft-lb torque if you get the 90's one for a V8 (unless you go aftermarket, but they are still limited by case strength), whereas the TKO 500 will take 500 ft-lb, TKO 600 takes 600, and the T-56 takes 450 torque for the Cobra spec (Viper and aftermarket can handle more). Figure out your planned power range and pick the transmission that fits into your plan and allowable work.

[buening 63]

BTW I'm sure you've seen this but Modern Driveline has some good info on these transmissions.

 

http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/t5_history.htm

 

http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/tremec.htm

 

http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/tremec_t-56.htm

[panteramatt 1]

Thanx for all the great info and help guys! Its really making me happy to see this conversion wont cost so much. So will the cable conversion install as easy as a hydraulic? Will I have problems with longtubes etc.? Heres what Ive come up with what I will need please tell me if Im missing something:

 

Tranny

Bell housing

clutch

flywheel

pedal

hydraulic or cable clutch

shifter

crossmember

[panteramatt 1]

As far as the flywheel, is billet worth it and why and what balance do I need for a 351W?

[chillininnh 21]

Thanx for all the great info and help guys! Its really making me happy to see this conversion wont cost so much. So will the cable conversion install as easy as a hydraulic? Will I have problems with longtubes etc.? Heres what Ive come up with what I will need please tell me if Im missing something:

 

Tranny

Bell housing

clutch

flywheel

pedal

hydraulic or cable clutch

shifter

crossmember

 

The driveshaft typically needs to be shortened.