351 CJ Cleveland question

[prayers1 153]

I recently came across a guy who's selling a 351 CJ Cleveland and would like to buy it and store it for future use. He's asking 1200 for the complete longblock less carb & exhaust manifolds.

 

Here's what I've been told:

The motor was in a 69 Mach 1 428 SCJ, the car and motor was stored indoors since 1977. It was stored so long because the original owner died and was stored by his son for decades until he finally decided to sell everything. The motor is for sale because it's the wrong motor for the car and they are looking for a 428. It was originally out of a 73 Q-code Mach 1 Mustang with 73000 miles.

 

The motor is suppose to be standard bore, never torn into.

 

My homework found this:

Casting number D2AE-CA is broken down as follows:

D = 70's, 2 = 72, A = full size vehicle, E = engine.

The date code 3D24 reads mfg date March 24, 1973:

 

If it was placed in a 1973 Mustang it would need to have a ( Z ) casted on the block instead of a A.

 

Is it a good deal, too much $.

What makes it a CJ motor.

What do I need to look out for???

 

Thanks to all!!!!!

[dennyb68 11]

The CJ should have 4 bolt mains and open chamber heads. Just make sure it will spin over.

It's a pretty good deal. There is a guy on ebay selling just the block and caps for 700 the heads should be worth at least 300 with all the other parts it wouldn't be a bad deal. Offer him 1000 he may take it..

[miketyler 15]

A guy was telling me that true Cj block will have a "C" welded on the surface of the back side. Not visible unless trans is removed. Some weeks later someone had posted a pic of their Cj engine. The shot of the backside sure enough showed the large C.

[prayers1 153]

It has the 4 bolt mains. I'll look into tha "C" on the block.

 

Wouldn't you know, I ran into a guy selling a 1969 F100, with a 69 351 Cleveland and C-6 for sale, $2890. I asked him to get me the numbers off the block.

I can't find on MustangTek anything about a 69 Cleveland, did they make it that year.

[Klutch 17]

I don't think the 351C CJ engines are any big deal. Yeah, it's a Cleveland, and that's cool. But as mentioned, it has open chambered heads. Even if it does have 4 bolt mains, that's no big deal. Clevelands don't really need four bolt main caps. But any 2 bolt main Cleveland can easily be drilled and tapped for 4 bolt mains. In fact, the 4 bolt main Clevelands are just 2 bolt main blocks that were tapped and drilled at the factory.

 

Even the open chambered Clevelands are great engines. You can deck the block and mill the heads to boost compression. Contrary to popular belief, it's the polyangle design of the Cleveland heads that makes them scream and not the "quench" of the closed combustion chambers.

 

Although Clevelands are getting harder to find, I don't think this particular Cleveland is particularly valuable. I would say it's less valuable than a 351C 4V with closed chambered heads. (The only 351C that's really valuable is a genuine Boss 351; those are rare.)

 

A good, solid Cleveland block that's never been bored is a good find. So, I would snatch up this engine, but only if it was a good price.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Klutch

[Klutch 17]

It has the 4 bolt mains. I'll look into tha "C" on the block.

 

Wouldn't you know, I ran into a guy selling a 1969 F100, with a 69 351 Cleveland and C-6 for sale, $2890. I asked him to get me the numbers off the block.

I can't find on MustangTek anything about a 69 Cleveland, did they make it that year.

 

No. Although the Cleveland heads were used on the 1969 Boss 302 engines, the 351C was not installed in any vehicle until the 1970 model year. 1969 was the first model year the 351W engines were available. So, the truck may have an original 351W or a later model Cleveland was installed. The seller may be confused. Many are.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Klutch

[Burn 14]

I don't think the 351C CJ engines are any big deal. Yeah, it's a Cleveland, and that's cool. But as mentioned, it has open chambered heads. Even if it does have 4 bolt mains, that's no big deal. Clevelands don't really need four bolt main caps. But any 2 bolt main Cleveland can easily be drilled and tapped for 4 bolt mains. In fact, the 4 bolt main Clevelands are just 2 bolt main blocks that were tapped and drilled at the factory.

 

Even the open chambered Clevelands are great engines. You can deck the block and mill the heads to boost compression. Contrary to popular belief, it's the polyangle design of the Cleveland heads that makes them scream and not the "quench" of the closed combustion chambers.

 

Although Clevelands are getting harder to find, I don't think this particular Cleveland is particularly valuable. I would say it's less valuable than a 351C 4V with closed chambered heads. (The only 351C that's really valuable is a genuine Boss 351; those are rare.)

 

A good, solid Cleveland block that's never been bored is a good find. So, I would snatch up this engine, but only if it was a good price.

 

^^^^^

I agree with Klutch!

 

If your plan is to rebuild it stock then I'd say its a decent deal. I'd offer the guy $800 for it and be thrilled to get it for $1K.

 

I'm currently building a 400hp 351C and let me tell you that building a C is not cheap. It will cost you about 25-30% more to build than a W. Its a bigger headache too, but hopefully worth it in the end.

 

Visit "Clevelands Forever" website for more info. http://www.network54.com/Index/102147

[dennyb68 11]

I see no C welded into the back of my CJ.. I was told the the 4 bolt CJ'S were chosen from the best of the best of the standard cleveland castings and turned into 4 Bolt CJ'S. Everyone has a story it just depends on who you want to listen to.

Edited September 17, 2012 by dennyb68

[maxum96 32]

4 bolt 351C blocks have no advantage over 2 block blocks. They're both made from the same casting. The main caps are the same. The caps and blocks just have the 2 extra holes. 351C engines didn't appear until the 70 model year. And I don't believe they were an option for the trucks. $1200 for a core 351C sounds steep in my book unless it was a 351 Boss motor or had all kinds of good 351C parts in it like closed chamber heads.

[prayers1 153]

The truck for sale is a F100, it came with a 6 cyl, the 351 was installed later.

I always thought it would be cool to have a 69 short bed truck with the 69 Fastback. If it does have a Cleveland I would have 2 for one price. He's getting back to me about the casting numbers.

 

The 1st Cleveland I mentioned seems the best thus far, I really don't want a screaming motor which I already have with the 289. I'd like a motor for longer rides and more torque and this one seems that it is all original with a standard bore.

I guess it's more of a badge saying it's a CJ motor. I did notice it has a 4 placed in the upper outside corner of the head meaning a 4V.

 

To make my decison more difficult, a friends Dad passed away after rebuilding a 351 C. The only information he has is that his Dad rebuilt it himself (weekend racer), has closed chamber heads, .40 over, 2 bolt main, 2 1/4 SS valves and a 580 cam. The block is DOAE-J and the Production date is Dec. 8 1969. It's really not a cruiser, but a production date of 69 is nice and he wants $500 for it. I wonder if I can tune it down?

(Research shows it should have Open Chamber Heads)??????

 

Well what do you all think?

Edited September 17, 2012 by prayers1
Might of been given wrong info. by seller

[jmlay 80]

The 428 CJ typically had a "C" scratched on the back of the block but not always. I have never heard this about a 351CJ, the casting numbers tell the story if the block is 4 bolt or not. D2AE-CA equates to a 4 bolt main block. The heads are the next thing to be a CJ, HO or Boss they have to be 4v heads. Typically will have a "4" case into the upper corners of the head. Some have a "." dot beside the "4" & some have nothing at all. If i recall correctly the CJ/HO used a spread bore carb,(4300-D).

 

Interestingly enough I was researching this further last week when I was visiting family as I have a 351ho/ch stashed away up there. I am not sure what to do with it & wanted to be sure what I had before trying to sell.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

With any 351C your best bet it to tear it apart to really tell what it has.

The D2Ae block could be a 2 or 4 bolt main.

The 4. or 4 in the corner of the heads could be open or closed chambered.

That spreadbore eng in your first post looks to be the 73 version, A low compression smogger.

 

As with anything else its what your willing to pay for it.

As my wife will tell you, I'm a tightwad when it come to spending money on somethings. But if the price is right I will buy it!

 

Like the 351C 4sp setup I stumbled on sitting on a guys garage floor.

He was going thru a divorce and had to sell it, Offered 500 cash and hauled it home.

Turned out to be a 4 bolt main block with a fully balanced lower end.

So I set out with my plan to build a period style engine for my Mach1.

It took 3.5 years to gather the parts at the right prices, But I managed to build a 617hp/527tq at the crank eng with extras for 3600.00.

So smart shopping can pay off if your willing to wait.

[Powershift 19]

I sold my running, beautiful condition, Cleveland for $1,200..... carb to oil pan, complete.

 

I wouldn't pay that much for one which needs a total rebuild, CJ or not.

[Klutch 17]

To make my decison more difficult, a friends Dad passed away after rebuilding a 351 C. The only information he has is that his Dad rebuilt it himself (weekend racer), has closed chamber heads, .40 over, 2 bolt main, 2 1/4 SS valves and a 580 cam. The block is DOAE-J and the Production date is Dec. 8 1969. It's really not a cruiser, but a production date of 69 is nice and he wants $500 for it. I wonder if I can tune it down?

(Research shows it should have Open Chamber Heads)??????

 

Well what do you all think?

 

That's the engine to buy! If it's an early, 4V Cleveland, it will have closed chambered heads. Furthermore, having stainless valves is great. I forgot to mention that factory Cleveland valves were two-piece and prone to failure. You do NOT want to run factory valves in any Cleveland.

 

I don't know what a "580" cam is. But if it's too agressive for the street, you can easily install an example with a milder grind. Dollars doughnuts, if that Cleveland was built for racing, it already has screw-in, adjustable rocker studs installed which is also a big plus.

 

Pay your friend the $500!

[jmlay 80]

Mine is date coded late 71 ans has a spread bore intake dated very near the same as the block, within a few days.

 

From what I have read the 72 on we're open chamber, due to the late 71 date would be considered a 72, would likely open chamber heads thus lower compression but no guarantee. Being not necisarily a bad thing with today's gas quality and no led.

 

Like was stated before pulling the heads to understand what you have in the block and heads will help dictate price.

[prayers1 153]

Here's the info I got on the $500 motor.

 

It was rebuilt 6/28/2005, shortly afterwards the guy passed away without ever installing it.

 

I was able to speak to the Machine Shop who built it, back in 2005 they didn't write down on the invoices as much as they do now but I was able to get a copy of the same. He said it was a street/strip rebuild, .40 over and should have 10:1 Compression. He said the guy didn't have much money so he didn't go crazy on it, just a basic rebuild.

 

I don't know if the total cost was $673.88 or the $622.38 + $673.88=$1296.26, either way it looks like a good deal to me ???????

 

I'm still waiting for the seller to get me photos of all casting numbers for verification.

 

[Burn 14]

^^^^^

That looks like an good deal to me. If it were me I'd buy it, tear it down to a short block and send it to a engine builder to tear down to inspect all parts and mic everything and then reassemble. He can also degree the cam and let you know what it is or just buy your own and have him install it. Have him check the heads too and make sure the springs match the cam. If I was a poor SOB I would just buy it, take off the oil pan and valve covers and check the torque specs of everything and then put oil in it, prime the motor to make sure oil is making it to the rockers (while slowly turning over the engine in 1/4 turns) and then slap it in the car. I'd probably run a EDL Performer or stock cast 4V intake on it and headers.

Good luck. Let us know which option to choose.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Burn
spelling mistake

[miketyler 15]

I have a new set of ceramic hookers for it.

[LindenBruce 27]

The 428 CJ typically had a "C" scratched on the back of the block but not always. I have never heard this about a 351CJ, the casting numbers tell the story if the block is 4 bolt or not. D2AE-CA equates to a 4 bolt main block. ]

 

That's what I was thinking too but don't know 351c's as well as the FE's. 428's may also have the "A" scratch on the back for passenger car applications and PI's. Bruce

[prayers1 153]

Well, I took a chance and went to look at the $500 351 CJ. I actually bought it for $600, the seller threw in the flywheel, bellhousing, fork, CJ Exhaust Manifolds, new set of Moroso valve covers and a new ford electronic dist.

 

I discovered that the block DOAE-J 9M6 was made Dec 6. 1969 for the 1970 production year, it is a 2 bolt main, 4V Closed Chamber heads, one of the first Clevelands built. The block, heads, intake & exhaust are numbers matching. Looking in to each spark plug hole I can see a shinny flat top piston and to my surprise it had 0.30 printed on it and the seller said it was bored .40 over.

 

You can see that the block had a rebuild and has been sitting for a long time, nature had taken it's course and various areas show surface rust. I will have to have the block stripped down, cleaned and reassembled.

 

Here are some pictures.

 

[LindenBruce 27]

Good buy on that motor. You see the number 4 at the top corner of the cylinder head by the valve cover rail. It means it's a 4v head. Great find dude. Bruce

[maxum96 32]

Well, I took a chance and went to look at the $500 351 CJ. I actually bought it for $600, the seller threw in the flywheel, bellhousing, fork, CJ Exhaust Manifolds, new set of Moroso valve covers and a new ford electronic dist.

 

I discovered that the block DOAE-J 9M6 was made Dec 6. 1969 for the 1970 production year, it is a 2 bolt main, 4V Closed Chamber heads, one of the first Clevelands built. The block, heads, intake & exhaust are numbers matching. Looking in to each spark plug hole I can see a shinny flat top piston and to my surprise it had 0.30 printed on it and the seller said it was bored .40 over.

 

You can see that the block had a rebuild and has been sitting for a long time, nature had taken it's course and various areas show surface rust. I will have to have the block stripped down, cleaned and reassembled.

 

Here are some pictures.

 

 

 

Nice score! I'm jealous.

[Klutch 17]

Be careful when you go to rebuild your Cleveland. You can't build it like a small block Chevy and expect it to perform well. The Cleveland is a unique engine. If you build it right, it will be a street terror. If you don't build it right, it will be a dog at lower RPMs. That's why you hear people say the Cleveland 4V heads are just too big. They built it like a Chevy, then complained it was a dog.

 

You might get some suggestions on the 351 Cleveland forum. The guys who hang out there live, breathe and race those engines.

[miketyler 15]

So no C on the backside? Just curious

[RogerC 136]

Be careful when you go to rebuild your Cleveland. You can't build it like a small block Chevy and expect it to perform well. The Cleveland is a unique engine. If you build it right, it will be a street terror. If you don't build it right, it will be a dog at lower RPMs. That's why you hear people say the Cleveland 4V heads are just too big. They built it like a Chevy, then complained it was a dog.

 

You might get some suggestions on the 351 Cleveland forum. The guys who hang out there live, breathe and race those engines.

 

X2, can't build them like your regular sbf either. I learned a lot on the cleveland forums researching for when I rebuild mine.