Should I build a 408W or 408C, a little wordy

[3pedal 95]

Heck, post it here 3pedal!

 

Sorry guys I phone keeps kicking video back...says its too big...its only 21 seconds

[Black_69_FB 49]

Sorry guys I phone keeps kicking video back...says its too big...its only 21 seconds

 

YouTube! lol

[prayers1 153]

Thank you all for your feedback, it has been very helpful!

 

Up date:

Haven't picked one yet, but it looks as if I'm leaning towards a Cleveland. The reason is that I already have a Std bore block to be bored out. From the 357 Cleveland I can reuse the Intake, Carb, Shorty Headers, Wires, Dist, Water Pump, Fuel Pump, Pulleys & Brackets, Radiator & Shroud, Valve Covers, Intake and Oil Pan.

 

As for the Windsor I would have to buy all the above and more. So, the Cleveland is looking a little cheaper for now.

 

Here is my wish list for the Cleveland to get around 475 - 500 Hp:

CHI 4V 228cc cylinder heads, complete, blueprinted and assembled.

Comp Cams dual valve springs, retainers, locators, Viton valve seals, and locks. 
Scat 9000 series 4" stroke crankshaft
Scat 4340 I-beam rods
Custom Racetec forged pistons, any bore size, 20cc dish, 1.5/1.5/3mm ring pack
Mahle piston rings
Custom Comp Cams hydraulic roller camshaft

 

As for the Windsor I'm still trying to figure out a Hydro Roller Cam combination.

I would like to use ARF 205 or 220cc Competition Cyl Heads, Edelbrock Performer, Long Tube Headers and Scat Crankshaft & Rods.

 

IMO, with any engine choice I still can obtain Power Brakes and Steering.

 

What puzzles me is that both blocks can easily be stroked to 500Hp, so it becomes a personal decision for now. It would of been an easier pick if one was much cheaper to build.

What's probably gonna make the choice for me, is the fate of Std bore Cleveland block I have lying in the corner of the garage, depending if the machine shop says it's a good core or not.

 

Please keep the Build opinions coming!

[barnett468 418]

Here's some other suggestions.

 

4032 piston material.

 

CHI 3 V 208 or 225 heads if you want CHI.

 

CHI dual plane intake but verify hood clearance first.

 

Custom cam from Chris Straub . Tell him barnett from this forum sent you.

 

http://www.straubtechnologies.com/

 

MOREL limited travel lifters . Colorado Speed has the lowest price on them.

 

Install the front cam bearing only .003" - .005" deep.

 

Use a standard melling oil pump but disassemble it and clean it and smooth the bypass bore out slightly with a ball style brake cylinder hone.

 

You can install cam bearing oil restrictors or cam bearings with smaller oil holes.

 

Drill a .016" hole in both front oil galley plugs before installing them.

 

.043" - .035" quench/squish clearance . Thin cometic gaskets may be needed.

 

square the deck.

 

bore the cylinders off the crank bore.

 

K1 long connecting rods.

 

ROLLMASTER timing set with IWIS chain.

 

.118" wall push rods

 

Get machined for a 1 piece rear main seal.

 

Use group IV synthetic 10w-40 or 15w-40 oil with 1250 - 1600 ppm of ZDDP or ZDDB after break in oil.

 

 

[prayers1 153]

barnett468- Thank you for that write up. Thus far I have learned that the CHI 3V, is the best out there for an aftermarket Cleveland head, but I'm stuck with their proprietary intake, which won't allow the use of my Shaker Scoop. I haven't been able to figure how much higher the intake is vs. a stock one. That is why I've thought of the CHI 4V, where I can still use any intake as well as my Blue Thunder intake.

 

The thought has come up to get a different hood, modify it as a GT hood or use a Boss 429 scope.  The CHI 3V would difinitely get me in the 500-575 Hp range.

 

Any Windsor fans out there!

[ray1970 88]

The shaker has always been a big problem for me when choosing intakes and heads.

I can be a bit stubborn about somethings and one is keeping the shaker..

The car was not born with it...

I just really like the look.....Sitting at a stop light watching it shake.

For this I have left some  HP on the table as it would be.

 

I have a fan off my old 351W in the back room if you need one..

[prayers1 153]

Ray it never seems to amaze me. I like your humor :)

[RPM 1,190]

 Thus far I have learned that the CHI 3V, is the best out there for an aftermarket Cleveland head, but I'm stuck with their proprietary intake, which won't allow the use of my Shaker Scoop. I haven't been able to figure how much higher the intake is vs. a stock one. That is why I've thought of the CHI 4V, where I can still use any intake as well as my Blue Thunder intake.

 

 

Any Windsor fans out there!

 

Once we get around 450-500 hp I don't think sacrificing a few hp by making the shaker fit will make much difference, especially on a mostly street driven car. I built some Ron Morris knock off motor mounts to lower the engine so my shaker would fit. I was even willing to mill the intake carb pad to get more room but it wasn't needed. 

 

I'm a Windsor fan because my Mach One came with one, and back around 1999 there were plenty of hop up parts for it. For years I planned on building a Clevor, but built a 393ci stroked 351w with 185 AFR heads for much less. In 2000 the 393 and AFR 185 were the biggest off the shelf available but would go as big if built today.

[ray1970 88]

My car was born with a 351W-2V and in the late 70s there was very little in performance parts available that really worked

and I had no idea what i was doing and no money..

The 351C was my way out of that.. you could pick up a 4-V motor for 50.00-100.00$ from some Saturday night crash.

 

 

With the shorty headers i dont see were you can lower the motor without some big time grinding or denting.

I am good with milling an intake if needed..

[1969_Mach1 333]

 A lot of big ideas in this thread.  In my mind some need more dollars than sense.  I'm curious after pricing and trying to sort through what components work together what Prayers1 ends up doing.  Might end up with a nice new motor.  Might end up with a new motor and spending weekends trying to make it run like he anticipated.  Might end up doing the best with what you have, make some minor mods to it,  be certain it's correct, and be done with it.  Maybe I'm getting older but I'd follow the third option.

 

On a more positive note, there is some truth to RPM's statement.  "Once we get around 450-500 hp I don't think sacrificing a few hp by making the shaker fit will make much difference, especially on a mostly street driven car."

[barnett468 418]

barnett468- Thank you for that write up. Thus far I have learned that the CHI 3V, is the best out there for an aftermarket Cleveland head, but I'm stuck with their proprietary intake, which won't allow the use of my Shaker Scoop. I haven't been able to figure how much higher the intake is vs. a stock one. That is why I've thought of the CHI 4V, where I can still use any intake as well as my Blue Thunder intake.

 

The thought has come up to get a different hood, modify it as a GT hood or use a Boss 429 scope.  The CHI 3V would difinitely get me in the 500-575 Hp range.

 

Any Windsor fans out there!

 

the blue thunder with chi 4v heads will get you there also.

 

windsors are simple

 

418 ci

 

howards or lunati or comp xe hr style cam or chris straub cam.

 

MOREL lifters

 

vic junior intake but check intake height . might be too tall for shaker . air gap is definitely too tall

 

afr 205 heads or trick flow 11r heads

 

850 quick fuel or aed carb.

.

[prayers1 153]

1969_Mach1- Motor and tranny are out I'm in it for the long haul, gonna build a stroker.

 

Everyone's feedback is great! That's what I like about this forum, sharing our builds and experience.

Hope others that view this thread will learn from it and have the insight what accessories will fit on a stroked W or C.

[ray1970 88]

If your making 500 or 525 unless you are racing you will never be able to tell on the street..

[Black_69_FB 49]

If your making 500 or 525 unless you are racing you will never be able to tell on the street..

 

I get what you're saying, and you aren't wrong. I'd be surprised If I make more than 425 or so... if that. I can't put it to the ground as is, why worry about making more? And yet, I do... lol.

 

Well, to clarify -- I'd like what I have now, plus maybe a little more... just in a super mild stroker form that has better vacuum, lower idle, more off-idle response etc.

 

But unless I hit the lottery, it ain't gonna be anytime soon. In the meanwhile, this will do nicely.

[Black_69_FB 49]

1969_Mach1- Motor and tranny are out I'm in it for the long haul, gonna build a stroker.

 

Everyone's feedback is great! That's what I like about this forum, sharing our builds and experience.

Hope others that view this thread will learn from it and have the insight what accessories will fit on a stroked W or C.

 

Good luck, P1. We eagerly await...

[1969_Mach1 333]

1969_Mach1- Motor and tranny are out I'm in it for the long haul, gonna build a stroker.

 

 

Well, good luck.  I'm sure you'll sort through it.  Let us know if you get the queasy overwhelming sick feeling in the pit of your stomach as you wonder what you did.

[ray1970 88]

So P1 are you using the current block or pulling out the spare?

using the old one would save a lot of time and money.    Starting fresh would leave you with a good spare . 

[ray1970 88]

I had a fresh 4 bolt .030 spare block for over 10 years than after I LOST a washer down the intake it came in real handy.

It was ugly!!!!

[prayers1 153]

In a way I'm glad I pulled the motor, the combination it had was not compatable, it  would of been best suited with a 4 speed on a 1/4 strip.

Now with motor out, working on PB & PS will easier.

 

Dropping off the spare to be checked. I'll try to recoup the money by selling the 357 long block. I still have the matching 4bbl intake and water pump.

[barnett468 418]

In a way I'm glad I pulled the motor,

 

I'll try to recoup the money by selling the 357 long block.

 

 

engines are worth far more if they are in a car and running.

[1969_Mach1 333]

In a way I'm glad I pulled the motor, the combination it had was not compatable, it  would of been best suited with a 4 speed on a 1/4 strip.

Now with motor out, working on PB & PS will easier.

 

Dropping off the spare to be checked. I'll try to recoup the money by selling the 357 long block. I still have the matching 4bbl intake and water pump.

Actually, 4sp cars are less forgiving for good drivability.  Stumbles, surges, etc. are more pronounced with a 4 sp car.  Component selection is more critical.  With automatic trans cars the slippage in the torque convertor masks a lot of drivability issues.

 

I hope your not believing these same issues cannot exist simply because you will have a larger CID motor?  The gist of some of these posts seem to imply that.

[ray1970 88]

Having a 4 speed car and more than one 351C in front of it I have found the larger displacement far more forgiving..

Maybe I have got better at tuning or camshaft choice is hard to say.

Overall it has been less problematic..

What I do know is I dont open the hood up like I use to..

I like that.....  This my not be normal....Must be over 21 to read this...Your mileage my very...not intended for are younger viewing crowd...... Francisco Franco is still dead....Larry the lobster still lives!

[prayers1 153]

Nothing I can do about selling a motor w/o a car.

 

Going to a longer stoke will help with low end manners, The 357 air pump just couldn't do that.  The big flowing heads were just bogging down the 357. Changing to a smaller Cam may of helped a little bit or using 2V heads. I always wanted a Stroker so there's no sense going backwards.

 

Just got word from a local machine shop that all cylinders can safety be bored to 0.30, the worst cyl  #1 measured 0.15 out.
They said double that amount to get 0.30 and that's the safe zone. 

 

Good news is that I can use that block, now to find a shop to get the cylinders bored and honed with torque plates, the decks squared and the mains align honed. 

[ray1970 88]

Its like the the yellow brick road........Your on your way..

 

My I ask why not use the old block?

Mine had 2000mi on it before before i swapped the insides and it worked out just fine as long as you have not over heated it

 i dont see a problem.....

Dont get me wrong all new is nice to have on the mind..

[1969_Mach1 333]

If it doesn't need to be bored 0.030", DON'T BORE IT 0.030"!!!!!!!!!!!