RobotMan 264 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 Strange timing issues. I wonder if its something wrong with your Petronix ignition. Was it connected correctly? Most people do not realize the factory resistor wire to the stock ignition coil needs to be bypassed when using Petronix. Petronix's website has installation instructions. Might be worth researching. A lot of people use Petronix, but I'm personally am not a fan of their stuff. I went and read the instructions for the Petronix in the box I got with it. It says not to change setup whether you have resistor wire or not. I do not believe I have one so hopefully it is a moot point. However, I took the distributor cap off and looked at the Petronix. There was quite a bit of plastic dust and it definitely had been rubbing. There was suppose to be a gap. Apparently it had moved while running. I cleaned it up and reset the gap. I started engine and base timing is now 30 BTDC with no more retard ability without adjusting distributor wiring. So I think you guys are on to the problem. Not sure what to do at this point. Stay with the Petronix and setup now it is not rubbing, or punt and get another option. What are other options like Petronix that replaces the points in the distributor? Rick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969_Mach1 333 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 I think Petronix is your only option to replace the stock points. I won't tell you what to do. If it were mine, I think I would try a good set of points, (maybe Accel brand) and a good ignition coil and see how it runs. If it's okay, leave it until you can decide on another type of electronic ignition. Just make sure you have the factory resistor wire still in place or the correct ballast resistor for the points. Did you check the stuff Barnett suggested? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barnett468 418 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 what do you mean no retard ability? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobotMan 264 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 what do you mean no retard ability? The distributor is physically hitting the side of the fuel line. I will need to rotate plugs wires to get additional retard ability. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rsmach1 71 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 I think the issues you're having are due to a couple things. First the inability to retard timing because of clearance with the fuel line leads me to believe the distributor was installed (clocked) incorrectly. Secondly the timing variances your having leads me to think something is wrong with the advance mechanism in the distributor. If it was me I'd look into getting a new distributor. You can replace it with a stock replacement type with a single vacuum advance, and reuse your Pertronix, or go new aftermarket like an MSD ready to run with vacuum advance. A third choice would be a Ford Duraspark distributor, ignition module and coil from a later 351w, wich will give you a complete electronic ignition system priced in between a stock and MSD units. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rsmach1 71 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 Stock http://www.autozone.com/ignition-tune-up-and-routine-maintenance/distributor/cardone-reman-distributor/108258_314885_0/?checkfit=true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969_Mach1 333 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 I don't know if the mechanical advance was checked for being sticky. Barnett gave some instructions how to check that. The strange part is for a period of time it ran fine. I've never used a Pertronix setup. I've read other threads where timing bouncing at idle was an issue with a Pertronix setup. I'm kind of with Rsmach 1. Try a stock distributor. Maybe, if you want, Accel points and better than a stock ignition coil. I suspect the original resistor wire is still installed, but double check because it's needed for a points type distributor. Then later invest in an MSD, Duraspark conversion, or another brand that is not a points to electronic drop-in retrofit. Curious, what coil is currently installed? And is it rated for 12V or is it designed to work with the resistor wire or a ballast resistor? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rsmach1 71 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 Duraspark distributor rebuilt http://www.autozone.com/ignition-tune-up-and-routine-maintenance/distributor/cardone-reman-distributor/ford/ltd-ii/1977/8-cylinders-h-5-8l-2bl-windsor-ohv/700880_0_11714_4431/?checkfit=true New http://www.autozone.com/ignition-tune-up-and-routine-maintenance/distributor/duralast-gold-new-distributor/ford/ltd-ii/1977/8-cylinders-h-5-8l-2bl-windsor-ohv/193720_0_4618_4431/?checkfit=true Module http://www.autozone.com/ignition-tune-up-and-routine-maintenance/ignition-control-module/duralast-ignition-control-module/ford/ltd-ii/1977/8-cylinders-h-5-8l-2bl-windsor-ohv/118422_627227_0_2425/?checkfit=true Edit American autowire sells a harness for $116,.or you can buy the connectors and wire and do your own for around $50-60. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barnett468 418 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 The distributor is physically hitting the side of the fuel line. I will need to rotate plugs wires to get additional retard ability. ok, do that then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969_Mach1 333 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 Another thought. Is the inside of the distributor cap filled with carbon tracking? Make certain it is in good shape. I also wonder how well the rotor is phased? If the initial timing changed much just from the install of the Pertronix, the rotor might not be phased very well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DRASTiK 22 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 Are you using a timing light with an adjustable dial? If so, make sure the dial wasn't accidentally moved. It may be worth trying a second light just to make sure yours isn't giving erratic readings. I have one you can borrow, if needed. I also have a new set of points out of a stock distributor for a 69 302. Not sure offhand if they are the same as a 351, but you're welcome to them if you want to toss them in the distributor to remove the pertronix from the equation. They've never been ran. I pulled them out of the new dizzy and put in a pertronix III. with no noticeable change to engine running, I checked timing and it had jumped to 30 BTDC. WTF??? I reved up to 2000 RPM again and it advanced to about 40 BTDC. 1 barnett468 reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barnett468 418 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 Are you using a timing light with an adjustable dial? Ahhh, ha, ha, yeah, that will definitely get ya . Did that once myself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobotMan 264 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 Are you using a timing light with an adjustable dial? If so, make sure the dial wasn't accidentally moved. It may be worth trying a second light just to make sure yours isn't giving erratic readings. I have one you can borrow, if needed. I also have a new set of points out of a stock distributor for a 69 302. Not sure offhand if they are the same as a 351, but you're welcome to them if you want to toss them in the distributor to remove the pertronix from the equation. They've never been ran. I pulled them out of the new dizzy and put in a pertronix III. Thanks for the offer Drastik. Actually got it fixed today. It was the Petronix and it was not seated properly and according to tech support would give erroneous timing readings. I did borrow a timing light and validated mine was working correctly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobotMan 264 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 So, I had a good day today. Found the Petronix issue, got a reasonable explanation from tech support on the jumping timing value, and got the distributor rotated to be able to adjust timing. Timing is currently set to about 12 BTDC at an idle of about 800 RPM with vac about 13 inHG. I readjusted fuel/air mixture to maximize vacuum. It is idling very well. I increased to 2000 RPM and timing advanced to 24 BTDC (all mechanical) and 20 inHG. I increased even more to 3000 RPM and timing advanced to 31 BTDC. I ran the car about 60 miles today and it ran very well. Idled nicely in traffic, had good pickup up hills under load and was just pleasurable to drive. I was really excited!!! I currently have both vacuum advance ports plugged on distributor. Not sure if I want to introduce vacuum advance since it is running so well. Thoughts and suggestions from here? By the way I did check the items on the distributor that Barnette suggested and all was well. Thanks Rick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barnett468 418 Report post Posted March 22, 2016 xlnt but what was the prob. vacuum advance only increases mileage . you can buy an adjustable vac can and set it to add 5-6 degrees . SMP P/N VC31 or BWD P/N V311. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobotMan 264 Report post Posted March 23, 2016 xlnt but what was the prob. vacuum advance only increases mileage . you can buy an adjustable vac can and set it to add 5-6 degrees . SMP P/N VC31 or BWD P/N V311. The Petronix was not seated properly and was rubbing the rotary magnet. The tech said most likely problem was not that it was touching but that it's reference to ground was not solid as it was rattling on base plate not being seated. Also I don't understand the adjustable vac can suggestion. Why would I not just use one on my distributor if I wanted to add some advance? Also I was talking to engine builder today and he said adding vac advance would give more response out of the start mainly. Do you agree with this? Also was surprised to see the mech advance cont to increase all the way to 30 BTDC when reving up to 3000 Rpm. Does this seem like a lot of mech advance? Thanks for help Rick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barnett468 418 Report post Posted March 23, 2016 you can use a dual diaphragm unit for advance only with the amount of timing you have if it only adds 5 - 6 degrees of advance, unfortunately they often add much more but you can easily check that . just disconnect the retard side of the vac can. vacuum advance does absolutely nothing under moderate to hard acceleration because the engine vacuum drops below the point at which it operates. it should also be connected to ported vacuum, not manifold vacuum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobotMan 264 Report post Posted March 23, 2016 you can use a dual diaphragm unit for advance only with the amount of timing you have if it only adds 5 - 6 degrees of advance, unfortunately they often add much more but you can easily check that . just disconnect the retard side of the vac can. vacuum advance does absolutely nothing under moderate to hard acceleration because the engine vacuum drops below the point at which it operates. it should also be connected to ported vacuum, not manifold vacuum. Yes my plan was to leave the secondary vac plugged and only try to use the primary vac advance connected to the ported carburetor vacuum. I am also concerned it will add to much as I am seeing around 30 BTDC at 3000 RPM and an earlier post yesterday said I did not want anymore than about 32 BTDC total. What would be symptoms of having too much advanced vac timing? Rick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barnett468 418 Report post Posted March 23, 2016 just set the rpm to 2000 with the vac adv disconnected and check the timing connect the vac adv and check the timing . if it is more than 6 degrees, buy an adjustable vac can. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969_Mach1 333 Report post Posted March 23, 2016 Glad to hear it was a simple fix. I suspected something was wrong with the Pertronix stuff. I never imagined it wasn't installed correctly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RPM 1,190 Report post Posted March 23, 2016 Great news! Bet that's a huge weight off your shoulders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobotMan 264 Report post Posted March 23, 2016 It was installed correctly at one point but vibrated loose. And yes it feels good to get it resolved!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RobotMan 264 Report post Posted March 23, 2016 just set the rpm to 2000 with the vac adv disconnected and check the timing connect the vac adv and check the timing . if it is more than 6 degrees, buy an adjustable vac can. Attached the vac advance and timing went to 40 BTDC at 2000 RPM. Disconnected again for now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
barnett468 418 Report post Posted March 23, 2016 Attached the vac advance and timing went to 40 BTDC at 2000 RPM. Disconnected again for now. LOL, yup, pretty typical . The adjustable can will fix that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rsmach1 71 Report post Posted March 24, 2016 Loose will do that lol, glad you figured it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
