Morel Hydraulic Roller Lifters

[MikeStang 247]

Well after I freshened the motor up I decided to upgrade from the stock roller lifter / Dog bone and spider set up to a Link bar Lifter and was going to go back with Comp but had read some horror stories and got spooked so I began the search for a good Hyd roller lifter at a good price point, and what I came up with was the Morel brand hyd roller lifter... I couldn't find hardly any bad reviews on them and several shops that build a LOT of SBF strokers recommended them, so I took a leap of faith and got a set and had them installed when they freshened up the motor.

 

I put the motor in an fired it off for the break in period which went off without a hitch, and after the break in I started the motor and started hearing a tapping sound like a rocker was out of adjustment, however I could rev it and the noise would go away...Hummmmmm... A week rolled by and I decided to pull the valve covers and check it out...Sure enough one rocker was loose as heck... I took it to 0 lash and gave it about 1/8 a turn and all was well but the valve train seemed much noisier than it was with the old set up, so I proceeded to looking into readjusting all of the valves....

I contacted the manufacturer and they said 1 Full turn past 0 lash...Okay, so pulled both covers and took them all down 1 full turn past 0 using the EOIC method of adjustment. Fired it off and it was super quiet but wouldn't hold idle any longer and vac readings were all over the place...Took it for a drive and it was missing bad, so decided to readjust the valves to 1/2 turn past 0, this resulted in the miss going away, but I started having a slight popping out of the exhaust at medium throttle which I knew was not good.

 

So last night I decided to Hot lash the valves and see what would happen.... I hate doing a hot lash because of the mess but I wasn't gonna pull the covers again and take valves to 1/4 turn past 0 and it still not be right, so Hot lash it was...

The 3rd rocker I backed off of increased the RPM from 650 to about 850, and the more I adjusted the higher it would idle... then things went bad...A rag I was using on the fender fell on the header and I didn't see it and it got oil soaked and caught fire... So I shut the car off and not thinking grabbed the fire extinguisher, pulled the pin and hit the flame one time for 1 second... Fire went out and when the smoke cleared I could see that I got almost as much on the exposed head as I did on the Fire....SOOOooo 2 hours after removeing the rockers, nuts, push rods, and cleaning the head out with Q-Tips I was able to finish the valve adjustment...

WOW what a difference, I can control the idle with almost NO use of the idle screw, and 3/4 turn on the idle mix screws puts it idling at 800 in gear and almost so smooth you wouldn't think its got a good size roller cam in it, much less over 500hp....

So the moment of truth came and I took it for a ride... The exhaust note was much clearer, and throttle response was wonderful.

I took it up to 65mph, let the 4R shift into 4th gear and dropped the hammer and was awarded with a snappy down shift to what I think was 3rd gear "I wasn't sure because I was to busy steering the front end as the back end was going to the right" All in all a very productive night.

 

My conclusion on the Morel Lifters is that they are a Good Quality Lifter at a Good price, but they don't like a lot of lash, and are a bit noisy until they are warmed up and then they get quiet LOL.

Don't hesitate to try a set if you need some, but I wouldn't go over 1/4 turn past 0 unless u have a reason to.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

i have mine at 3/4 and no problems.  i'm assuming yours are noisy because you barely have any preload?

[barnett468 418]

exactly which ones are they and what is your oil viscosity?

 

if you happened to get the limited travel ones, they use less lash but can be setup with more if the oil viscosity is not more than 30.

[Rodman 11]

i had comp hydraulic roller link bar lifters  and the roller failed and wiped out the camshaft. 

 

switch to the moral 5323 and they were quite for the first 100 miles, now they are noisy on start up. no other problems with them, expect on start up  it can last a minute or two.

 

Tried adjusted then a couple time as per morel web site.  also used 5w30 and 10w40, is this normal for the morels to make noise? 

 

http://johncalliesinc.com/pdf/AdjustingMorelHydraulicLifters.pdf

[MikeStang 247]

I am running the 5323 Normal street Roller link bar style like Rodman.

When I first fired the motor they were pretty quiet but one rocker started clattering so I adjusted it and it was fairly quiet.

After the hot lash that I spoke of earlier I changed the oil to Mobil 1 Full synthetic 5w/20 and its a bit noisy on start up but gets quiet after its warmed up, however I can still hear the valve train more than I would like to.

 

Buckeye, I ran them at 1 Full turn past Zero, then 1/2 a turn past Zero and the engine would backfire through the exhaust like a valve was hanging open lol... So I hot lashed them and they seem to be fine now and the motor runs as it should, its just a little noisier than the Comp stock replacement with spider that I was using.

Im not sure what the lash is now honestly since you cant really... I just loosened the nuts off till the rocker began to clatter then ran it down till they got quiet and added maybe 1/8 turn and locked the nuts down.

These are not the limited travel units, as I can put a dial indicator on them and tighten the nuts down and watch the gauge go over .070

[MikeStang 247]

Basically what I think I figured out was that when I would adjust a rocker with the dial indicator installed I could take it to Zero lash and then set the dial to 0 and turn the nut about 1/8 a turn and the gauge would swing easily about 7-10 thousands then it would stop and it would be a little harder to turn the nut to 1/2 a turn... You could then watch the needle on the gauge slowly creep over more and more as the oil bled off... But with 1/2 a turn the motor just wouldn't run as it should...

I don't mind a little valve noise as long as the motor runs right.

 

I drove the car about 400 miles from Friday to Today and all appears to be okay

[barnett468 418]

ok all hydro lifters will make noise if you use 5w 20 oil . . . why are you using that viscosity?

[1969_Mach1 333]

Makes no sense why the motor won't run correct with 1/2 turn preload on the lifters.  Are they some type of short travel lifter?  You're certain you are on the heel ( I think that's the term) of the cam lobe when adjusting?  From what I understand, setting the cylinder with the valves you are adjusting at TDC compression is sometimes not the correct position.  Since you previously had an OEM style hyd roller setup, is it a small base circle cam?  If so, are these lifters compatible with small base circle cams, i.e. oil hole alignment.

 

Also, and merely my opinion, aside from lifter noise issues, 5w20 seems too low of a viscosity for a 550 hp, 408 cu inch motor.  I'd be worried about enough film thickness on the bearings and if it can withstand the high bearing loads of your motor.  Maybe I'm old school with oils, but I would think a 10W30 racing oil is more suitable.  What oil does Morel suggest?

[barnett468 418]

Makes no sense why the motor won't run correct with 1/2 turn preload on the lifters.  Are they some type of short travel lifter?  You're certain you are on the heel ( I think that's the term) of the cam lobe when adjusting?  From what I understand, setting the cylinder with the valves you are adjusting at TDC compression is sometimes not the correct position.  Since you previously had an OEM style hyd roller setup, is it a small base circle cam?  If so, are these lifters compatible with small base circle cams, i.e. oil hole alignment.

 

Also, and merely my opinion, aside from lifter noise issues, 5w20 seems too low of a viscosity for a 550 hp, 408 cu inch motor.  I'd be worried about enough film thickness on the bearings and if it can withstand the high bearing loads of your motor.  Maybe I'm old school with oils, but I would think a 10W30 racing oil is more suitable.  What oil does Morel suggest?

 

the short travel lifters still have .150" of plunge so even at 1/2 turn, they "should" not be bottomed out if i remember correctly [too lazy to look up threads per inch, lol] but yes, they might have sent him the wrong ones.

 

no one ever has a problem with morel lifters if they are used as intended.

 

yeah, as far as oil goes, unless i lived in the antartic, i would be using a minimum of 10w-30 and one with a lot of ZDDP or ZDDB.

 

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[MikeStang 247]

Well I know they were not bottomed out because I ran them down 1 full turn and watched the dial indicator keep on a going down meaning they were still purging oil and compressing.

Yes I'm sure I was on the heel of the cam, as a matter of fact I used 2 different methods.

1st time at 1 full turn I used the EOIC "exhaust opening Intake closing method" then the second time I did it with the opposing cylinder method...when's you go to the opposing cyl in firing order and adjust the opposite of the valve on the cyl that is fully open.. I have used both methods and both have always worked fine for me... Heck I have even used he bring each cyl to TDC Method and adjust both valves and never had a problem, but I could only get it right by hot lashing it... The guy at Morel said they still have a lot of guys that they know that still prefer the hot lash and say it's the only way they can get it right lol.

It's a super pain in the ass to pull my strut tower brace and run the valves and I knew hot lashing would likely get me where I wanted to be.

Barnett why do you suggest an oil with a lot of ZDDP In it.? This is a hyd roller block and camshaft not a flat tapped set up so I shouldn't need all that like I once did...actually part of the reason I went to a roller block so I didn't have to worry about smoking a cam lobe.

What's wrong with a full synthetic 5w20?... Morels suggests nothing over 10w40.

Maybe I just run a damn 10w30 full synthetic., but have heard the synthetic 5w/20s actually help keep noise down which sounded odd to me but figured I would try it

[MikeStang 247]

Funny thing is the 1/2 a turn put me at exactly the .030-.035 Morel lists as their spec for iron block with aluminum heads lol, but the motor just wouldn't run right for whatever reason.

[Rsmach1 71]

Here is what's wrong with 5w20. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/518/motor-oils

 

It's used for one reason, fuel economy in new cars.

 

PS Ford recommends 5w50 for there Cobra Jet Mustangs and the track pack cars, why? Because they don't have to follow Federal restrictions, and they know an engine run hard needs a higher viscosity oil.

[Rodman 11]

MikeStang, Who did you talk to at morel and do you have there number?   

[barnett468 418]

 

Well I know they were not bottomed out because I ran them down 1 full turn and watched the dial indicator keep on a going down meaning they were still purging oil and compressing.
Yes I'm sure I was on the heel of the cam, as a matter of fact I used 2 different methods.
1st time at 1 full turn I used the EOIC "exhaust opening Intake closing method" then the second time I did it with the opposing cylinder method...when's you go to the opposing cyl in firing order and adjust the opposite of the valve on the cyl that is fully open.. I have used both methods and both have always worked fine for me... Heck I have even used he bring each cyl to TDC Method and adjust both valves and never had a problem, but I could only get it right by hot lashing it... The guy at Morel said they still have a lot of guys that they know that still prefer the hot lash and say it's the only way they can get it right lol.
It's a super pain in the ass to pull my strut tower brace and run the valves and I knew hot lashing would likely get me where I wanted to be.
Barnett why do you suggest an oil with a lot of ZDDP In it.? This is a hyd roller block and camshaft not a flat tapped set up so I shouldn't need all that like I once did...actually part of the reason I went to a roller block so I didn't have to worry about smoking a cam lobe.
What's wrong with a full synthetic 5w20?... Morels suggests nothing over 10w40.
Maybe I just run a damn 10w30 full synthetic., but have heard the synthetic 5w/20s actually help keep noise down which sounded odd to me but figured I would try it

 

 

Oh boy we turned thhis into an oil thread xlnt . . ok i will post more later but zddp is a high pressure anti wear agent and even though you have rollers they still put a lot of force on the cam . also the pistons re forced against the cylinder walls and the the rod bearings arer forced against the crank and the crank is forced against the bearings etc . . most all oil has zddp and at least 600 ppm of it because they found that if oil had no zddp it does not protect the engineer as well . . the only reason oil companies lowered the zddp level in some oils is to qualify for a particular sae rating so it can be approved for use in cars with catalytic converters . because it has phosphorus . . well now some companies now use boron instead of phosphorous boron because it is safe to use in cat converter cars but because the gov has not approved boron for use in cat cars the zddp with boron instead of phosphorous is still not approved for use in those cars.

[MikeStang 247]

Rodman,

I spoke to 2 different guys and don't remember their names.. The number is 432-391-7774 I believe.

The first guy I Spoke to instantly said 1 Full turn, the 2nd older sounding fellow said 1/2 or less and that a lot of their customers only hot lash LOL.

[barnett468 418]

Rodman,

I spoke to 2 different guys and don't remember their names.. The number is 432-391-7774 I believe.

The first guy I Spoke to instantly said 1 Full turn, the 2nd older sounding fellow said 1/2 or less and that a lot of their customers only hot lash LOL.

 

There is no phone number for Morel available to the public . Only a vendor can talk to them . You most likely talked to a Morel dealer.

[MikeStang 247]

Straub Technologies Is who I spoke with I believe... If I understand correct they seem to be one of the most knowledgeable on the Morel Lifters in terms of design etc... maybe I got my wires crossed but I was sure I called John Callies...Oh well

[MikeStang 247]

http://johncalliesinc.com/pdf/AdjustingMorelHydraulicLifters.pdf

 

This link tells how to adjust them and for a 7/16x20 stud they are saying 1 full turn should ned you ..050 thou...Well 1 Full turn on mine netted me well over that LOL... Maybe I better check my AFR Heads to be sure they are 7/16x20 but I know they are not 3/8" that's for darn sure.

[MikeStang 247]

So I Suppose I will switch to a Synthetic 10w30 then and add some ZDDP which I happen to have handy hehe... Im assuming the ZDDP is okay to add to Synthetic oils?

[barnett468 418]

So I Suppose I will switch to a Synthetic 10w30 then and add some ZDDP which I happen to have handy hehe... Im assuming the ZDDP is okay to add to Synthetic oils?

 

I would NOT, NOT, NOT add ZDDP to your oil . . I would buy oil with the correct amount and I wouldn't be cheap on how much I paid for it unless it was a old, stock. worn out engine I didn't care about.

 

ALL oils have ZDDP . . Group III "synthetic" oil is basically regular oil that has uniform size particles as if they simply poured it thru a strainer.

 

Group IV and V are more of a true synthetic and are the best oils in the world . . There is no such thing as crummy Group IV or V base stock.

 

Group IV is PAO and mPAO oil . . Group V is Ester . . It is common for a mfg to add a little Ester with their PAO oil or a little PAO with the ESTER, however, the latter is more uncommon.

 

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[1969_Mach1 333]

http://johncalliesinc.com/pdf/AdjustingMorelHydraulicLifters.pdf

 

This link tells how to adjust them and for a 7/16x20 stud they are saying 1 full turn should ned you ..050 thou...Well 1 Full turn on mine netted me well over that LOL... Maybe I better check my AFR Heads to be sure they are 7/16x20 but I know they are not 3/8" that's for darn sure.

You are correct.  One full turn on a 7/16-20 UNF stud will move the pushrod down more than 0.050"  One revolution of a thread pitch of 20 TPI is 0.050.  But the rocker arm ratio affects how much movement there is at the push rod cup of the rocker arm.  With some rocker arm dimensions and simple trigonometry you can calculate how much movement there will be at the push rod cup end. 

[MikeStang 247]

Yeah I'm running 1.6 rockers and hate math haha, so a dial indicator over the head of the rocker would be a good way to ensure you got it right, which is how I found out 1 turn was so much

[Rodman 11]

before the comp lifter roller failed the was no lifter noise  6100 miles on the engine , oil used was hps street 10w30.  now  following the  ajustment procedure i tuned just over a 1/2 of a turn . spec if .030 to .035  . stud is 7/16 x 20.   a 1/2 turn is .025 and 3/4 is .375 , correct?

 

for the first 100 miles it was quit  with motorcraft 5w30 , started making noise right after start up would last a couple of minutes. change the oil to mobil 1 10w40 and adjusted to spec. was 100% better. theres 500 mile on the engine now and its noisy again. 

 

could valve spring pressure cause this?  specs are seat pressure 155@1900 open pressure 475@1.1300  coil ind height 1.150

[MikeStang 247]

Don't get me to lying to ya Rod.

Main reason I swapped Lifters was to get away from dog bone set-up and spider retainer, and when my builder said that several of my Comp Factory replacement lifters had the roller pins working out that closed the deal for me.

I broke my motor in on straight 30wt and it was quiet for a bit then all of a sudden I had rocker noise which turned out to be a loose rocker for whatever reason, which actually happened on the dyno the FIRST time I had the motor built...We noticed it because the power was down like 35hp from a previous pull and popped covers and rocker was loose.

 

When I Zero lash the rockers and then start turning the wrench there is a very noticeable difference indicated on the dial indicator as well as the force it takes to turn the nut just after about 1/4 turn... The needle usually swings 10-20 thou in the first 1/4 or less and then you can tell that your forcing the cup down into the lifter body and forcing the oil to bleed out of the lifter at about anything past 1/4 turn...

[MikeStang 247]

Technically it should take like .60 of a turn to hit the magic .35 thousand preload I think, but 1/2 a turn got me 32-35 thou.