Tuning question

[barnett468 418]

HEYOOO I got it! Stupid me wasn't turning the nut that's closest to the fuel line! So, I got both needles set. There's just enough gas in the inspection hole that it sloshes out when I rock the car! Pretty excited that I just conquered my first task on the Holley...My buddy said Holleys are really intricate to tune on. 

 

So, what's next!? I got a timing light. 

 

Ahhh, ha, ha xlnt . . you are a great student . . all you have to do is follow peoples instructions in order [or at least i put mine in order] and you will do fine and learn a lot.

 

yes, get the timing lite.

 

you do NOT need timing marks . . I mentioned in my previous post what to do.

 

ALSO, see if it diesels or is hard to start now . . this ma hve fixed both of these problem which is why i suggested doing this.

 

ALSO, tuning a holley is a piece of cake . . have your friend join the site and we will tell him how to do it.

 

.

 

.

[nickjames138 15]

Ahhh, ha, ha xlnt . . you are a great student . . all you have to do is follow peoples instructions in order [or at least i put mine in order] and you will do fine and learn a lot.

 

yes, get the timing lite.

 

you do NOT need timing marks . . I mentioned in my previous post what to do.

 

.

awesome! I'm gonna go get on it right now! 

[barnett468 418]

I don't think i have the pointer. You're talking about the pointer that shows you where to set your timing right? I haven't seen any number marker or pointer unfortunately. I'll check again though. 

 

it is not required.

 

rotate the engine until you see the timing marks on the damper.

 

if they are hard to see, clean or sand the marks until thy are easy to see.

 

put a long line on the 0 or TDC [top dead center] mark with liquid white out.

 

put 1 very small dot on the 10 degree line.

 

put 2 small dots on the 20 degree line.

 

put 3 small dots on the 30 degree line.

 

put 4 small dots on where the 40 degree line would be . . you can measure the distance from 0 t 10 degrees then measure from 30 using that distance and that will be 40 degrees.

 

remove and plug the distributor vacuum hose.

 

lower the idle as much as possible.

 

start the engine and check where the long line is in relation to the timing cover.

 

turn the engine off and put a dot on the timing cover where the 0 timing line on the damper was.\\now we at least have reference points which as we need.

 

.

[barnett468 418]

awesome! I'm gonna go get on it right now! 

 

 

ok great . . i will be here and so may some others and we will tell you step by step what to do . . its really pretty easy and won't take very long.

[nickjames138 15]

it is not required.

 

rotate the engine until you see the timing marks on the damper.

 

if they are hard to see, clean or sand the marks until thy are easy to see.

 

put a long line on the 0 or TDC [top dead center] mark with liquid white out.

 

put 1 very small dot on the 10 degree line.

 

put 2 small dots on the 20 degree line.

 

put 3 small dots on the 30 degree line.

 

put 4 small dots on where the 40 degree line would be . . you can measure the distance from 0 t 10 degrees then measure from 30 using that distance and that will be 40 degrees.

 

remove and plug the distributor vacuum hose.

 

lower the idle as much as possible.

 

start the engine and check where the long line is in relation to the timing cover.

 

turn the engine off and put a dot on the timing cover where the 0 timing line on the damper was.\\now we at least have reference points which as we need.

 

.

A few questions before I start. How far apart is 0-10 on my tape measure?

I don't think there ever was a hose attached to the vacuum on my distributor when the mechanic installed it. Do I need to go get a hose for it for when I'm finished setting the timing?

[barnett468 418]

A few questions before I start. How far apart is 0-10 on my tape measure?

I don't think there ever was a hose attached to the vacuum on my distributor when the mechanic installed it. Do I need to go get a hose for it for when I'm finished setting the timing?

 

 

DOES YOUR CAR STILL DIESEL OR START HARD?

 

 

read my instructions again above all that info is there . . find your timing marks and you will see it . . then you can measure how far 10 degrees is.

 

they should look like this . . post photos if you need . . the numbers are occasionally filled up with paint or dirt.

 

one end says BTC all the marks on this side of 0 mean Before the piston reaches Top Dead Center in the cylinder bore.

 

The ATC on the other end means after the piston reaches top dead center and it is on its way down on intake or compression stroke.

 

 

[nickjames138 15]

read my instructions again above all that info is there . . find your timing marks and you will see it . . then you can measure how far 10 degrees is.

 

they should look like this . . post photos if you need . . the numbers are occasionally filled up with paint or dirt.

 

one end says BTC all the marks on this side of 0 mean Before the piston reaches Top Dead Center in the cylinder bore.

 

The ATC on the other end means after the piston reaches top dead center and it is on its way down on intake or compression stroke.

 

 

My damper doesn't have any marks at all! I only found BTC

So where do I go from there? There's no markings at all other than that BTC I found and there's a white line much further down the damper that I'm guessing the mechanic drew.

[barnett468 418]

.

DOES YOU CAR STILL DIESEL AND START HARD?

 

 

Sand both on sides of that BTC mark down to the metal for at least 1 1/2 inches to see if the marks are there . . They should be to the left of those letters as you face the front of the car so you need to turn the engine a little more and start sanding that side first.

 

Do NOT sand the white line your mechanic added.

 

Timing marks are viewed from the drivers side with the lite on a 69 and from the passenger side on a 70.

[nickjames138 15]

.

DOES YOU CAR STILL DIESEL AND START HARD?

 

 

Sand both on sides of that BTC mark down to the metal for at least 1 1/2 inches to see if the marks are there . . They should be to the left of those letters as you face the front of the car so you need to turn the engine a little more and start sanding that side first.

 

Do NOT sand the white line your mechanic added.

 

Timing marks are viewed from the drivers side with the lite on a 69 and from the passenger side on a 70.

Ok. I have some fine sandpaper so might take a while. Yes it's still dieseling hard! It's starting right up when it's warm! It also fires right up when it's cold after I hit the gas 2x before starting it.

[barnett468 418]

Ok. I have some fine sandpaper so might take a while. Yes it's still dieseling hard! It's starting right up when it's warm! It also fires right up when it's cold after I hit the gas 2x before starting it.

 

 

ok, this tells us that the gas level was not causing the prob and the new gas level will never cause a prob.

 

you can scrape the paint with a screw driver or single sided razor blade too.

[nickjames138 15]

.

DOES YOU CAR STILL DIESEL AND START HARD?

 

 

Sand both on sides of that BTC mark down to the metal for at least 1 1/2 inches to see if the marks are there . . They should be to the left of those letters as you face the front of the car so you need to turn the engine a little more and start sanding that side first.

 

Do NOT sand the white line your mechanic added.

 

Timing marks are viewed from the drivers side with the lite on a 69 and from the passenger side on a 70.

Ok I found the marks. They were faint like you said. I made a mark for 10, 2 for 20, etc. read with a timing lite and 0 was right above this screw hole. Hope you can tell by the pictures. I tried to take video, but my camera on my iPhone couldn't react fast enough.

trim.E6E909C0-8203-4823-B4FC-DED6CD51BB4A.MOV

[barnett468 418]

.

 

ok, xlnt.

 

now mark the numbers as i suggested and put a mark on the timing cover . . the dots on the damper can not touch each other . . they must clearly be individual.

 

check the timing with the distributor vacuum hose connected then unplug it and check the timing again.

[nickjames138 15]

.

 

ok, xlnt.

 

now mark the numbers as i suggested and put a mark on the timing cover . . the dots on the damper can not touch each other . . they must clearly be individual.

 

check the timing with the distributor vacuum hose connected then unplug it and check the timing again.

I put all the dots on the damper, I put a dot right above the damper if you look above it where there's a hole there's a white dot under it, and I don't have a hose that was ever hooked up to the distributor vacuum port.

[barnett468 418]

remove those dots and place them farther apart . . you have the entire width of the damper to use.

 

you do not have a line on 0 either . . you need to recheck where all the marks are.

 

you really need to remove all the paint until the metal is shiny.

 

there is a very good reason for everything people ask you to do.

 

 

This is what the timing pointer looks like.

 

1. get a 10 x 24 hex head bolt 3/8" long for the tiny open hole you see in your photo and a flat washer for the screw and a 6" piece of 12 or 14 gauge [small diameter] solid copper wire around two inches long.

2. remove the plastic coating from the wire and put a small loop in one end of the wire just big enough for the screw to go through.

3. put a 90 degree bend in it around 1/2" away from the loop so the end will stick out over the damper.

4. put the washer on the screw then lightly tighten it to see if clears the damper . . bend it until it fits properly then cut the extra length rotate it to the proper position then tighten the screw with moderate force.

 

notice that the end of the pointer is slightly to the left of the bolt . . simply rotate your wire until it is close to the same location then put white out on the end.

.................................

 

 

Here's a timing pointer made from a coat hangar which is too big for your tiny screw but oit would work on the lower timing cover stud if there was one but it is harder to make . . the lower stud takes a 5/16" x 18 nut.

 

 

 

You can buy a pointer here or at some mustang shops . . the bottom timing cover bolt is supposed to have a threaded extension sticking out around 5/8" for the other end of the pointer to mount to.

 

http://www.cjponyparts.com/scott-drake-timing-pointer-289-302-351w-1968-1973/p/HW1300/

 

 

 

.
 

[nickjames138 15]

remove those dots and place them farther apart . . you have the entire width of the damper to use.

 

you do not have a line on 0 either . . you need to recheck where all the marks are.

 

you really need to remove all the paint until the metal is shiny.

 

there is a very good reason for everything people ask you to do.

 

 

This is what the timing pointer looks like.

 

1. get a 10 x 24 hex head bolt 3/8" long for the tiny open hole you see in your photo and a flat washer for the screw and a 6" piece of 12 or 14 gauge [small diameter] solid copper wire around two inches long.

 

2. remove the plastic coating from the wire and put a small loop in one end of the wire just big enough for the screw to go through.

 

3. put a 90 degree bend in it around 1/2" away from the loop so the end will stick out over the damper.

 

4. put the washer on the screw then lightly tighten it to see if clears the damper . . bend it until it fits properly then cut the extra length rotate it to the proper position then tighten the screw with moderate force.

 

notice that the end of the pointer is slightly to the left of the bolt . . simply rotate your wire until it is close to the same location then put white out on the end.

 

.................................

 

 

Here's a timing pointer made from a coat hangar which is too big for your tiny screw but oit would work on the lower timing cover stud if there was one but it is harder to make . . the lower stud takes a 5/16" x 18 nut.

 

 

 

You can buy a pointer here or at some mustang shops . . the bottom timing cover bolt is supposed to have a threaded extension sticking out around 5/8" for the other end of the pointer to mount to.

 

http://www.cjponyparts.com/scott-drake-timing-pointer-289-302-351w-1968-1973/p/HW1300/

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

Perfect. I'll buy the pointer now. As far as the markers go...I know you can't see the marks from the pic, but I can see them without filing down. They're faint, but I can see them however the camera cannot. From the first line which would be -10 I counted 5 marks which would be 0 (I didn't mark it because I didn't want to have 2 lines, but I will put another line), then I counted another 5 marks and put a dot, another 5 put 2 dots, another 5 put 3 dots, then measured for the 4 dots. I can redo it. I'll try to file the damper down more. In the meantime, I retarded the distributor the slightest bit (counterclockwise...yes counterclockwise), took it for a drive, and it did not diesel. It's def idling a bit lower and it's still hesitating. It's starting right up though. Headed back down to the garage to try to scrape the damper. 

[barnett468 418]

Remove the long line and put it on 0 just like i suggested . . you do NOT want it on the ATC side where you put it.

 

The lines at 10, 20, and 30, are slightly longer than the others which is why you should sand the paint off to see them clearly . . Here's the deal, if the dots are not in the proper place, it ca be harder for us to determine what to do with your timing and that won't be helpful t anyone.

 

We can get you started on the timing without the factory pointer if you think you can see the marks close to the one you put on the timing cover. or just make one, then this will be a no brainer. to do

[1969_Mach1 333]

When you install a new pointer, it looks like there is a missing water pump bolt as well.  It's in a couple of the pictures that also show part of the fuel pump.  The hole I am referring to is about 1-1/2 inches to the left of two other bolts.  All together they form a triangular bolt pattern.  There is a small very faint rusty mark at the bottom of the hole with the missing bolt.

 

National Parts Depot also sells that pointer.  If you are in Southern California they have a depot near you.

[barnett468 418]

When you install a new pointer, it looks like there is a missing water pump bolt as well.  It's in a couple of the pictures that also show part of the fuel pump.  The hole I am referring to is about 1-1/2 inches to the left of two other bolts.  All together they form a triangular bolt pattern.  There is a small very faint rusty mark at the bottom of the hole with the missing bolt.

 

National Parts Depot also sells that pointer.  If you are in Southern California they have a depot near you.

 

I haven't seen a 351 windsor water pump for a while . . Is he missing a bolt? . . Sure looks like a machined bolt hole to me.

[1969_Mach1 333]

I double checked mine.  Yeah, a bolt goes in that hole.  I'm sure the ARP bolt kit didn't come with the correct bolts.  They never seem to for small block Ford's.  I have the black oxide coated ARP bolts but had to buy a bunch of individual extra bolts for the timing cover and water pump.  I like ARP but If I did it again I might just use the reproduction bolts for a more original look.

[barnett468 418]

I double checked mine.  Yeah, a bolt goes in that hole.  I'm sure the ARP bolt kit didn't come with the correct bolts.  They never seem to for small block Ford's.  I have the black oxide coated ARP bolts but had to buy a bunch of individual extra bolts for the timing cover and water pump.  I like ARP but If I did it again I might just use the reproduction bolts for a more original look.

 

ok thanks, that might explain why there is a rust mark on the bottom of it as you mentioned.

 

i am also fairly certain that with ARP aircraft grade bolts, your water pump will never fall off, lol.

 

he has already adjusted his carb and found the timing marks and got a lite and marked the damper and is getting, or making, a pointer, so he's made a lot of progress quickly that he can be proud of being a newbie to all this as he says he is.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Yeah, he's doing great.  I'm sure he's wondering why the shop couldn't sort this out.  It made no sense for the timing pointer to be removed.  After the timing and carb is adjusted the issues should be solved.

[nickjames138 15]

Ok, update. I stopped by my friends who built his own 73 vette. He helped me tune and we could not stop the dieseling. Then, he grabbed a hose and connected it from the distributor to the vacuum advance and immediately my car started running night and day better! We then adjusted the timing to where it doesn't diesel and it starts right up. Then we dialed in the carb. It's running night and day better now! It sounds so good at idle and when i drop it into gear it sounds healthy. It doesn't sound like it's trying to stay alive when put it into drive like it used to! 

 

Barnett and 1969_Mach1, thank you so much for your help! you guys are really awesome for teaching me some things! 

 

Just fyi my next big project will be a top end kit. 

[barnett468 418]

Ok, update. I stopped by my friends who built his own 73 vette. He helped me tune and we could not stop the dieseling. Then, he grabbed a hose and connected it from the distributor to the vacuum advance and immediately my car started running night and day better! We then adjusted the timing to where it doesn't diesel and it starts right up. Then we dialed in the carb. It's running night and day better now! It sounds so good at idle and when i drop it into gear it sounds healthy. It doesn't sound like it's trying to stay alive when put it into drive like it used to! 

 

Barnett and 1969_Mach1, thank you so much for your help! you guys are really awesome for teaching me some things! 

 

Just fyi my next big project will be a top end kit. 

 

 

Xlnt, he did it ALL WRONG!

[nickjames138 15]

Xlnt, he did it ALL WRONG!

Please explain. You kept asking where the hose from the distributor was hooked up to. I never had a hose hooked up to the Dist. so I figured when he hooked it up and it started running better that was a good step towards fixing the issue. We played with the timing by ear since I'm waiting on a pointer to arrive via mail and nothing was working. It kept dieseling. Then, once we hooked the hose up and put the timing near the best running position (where it was before) it didn't diesel and it didn't hesitate anymore. So, those 2 issues being gone...I was under the impression that is a great thing. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I've heard of that being done a few times by others.  But on these cars, vacuum advance typically doesn't operate at idle.  For one, it can cause an unstable idle if vacuum fluctuates because the timing at idle not be stable.  It's just not the ideal approach.  I think some older GM products, including Corvettes had vacuum advances connected like your friend setup yours.  I think after the pointer was installed barnett was planning to guided you through setting up the base timing, mechanical advance, vacuum advance, and carb adjustments.  Basically, the base timing and mechanical advance are first maximized.  Then is vacuum advance is adjusted accordingly to get to the desired total timing.

 

I am kind of guessing what happened is when you attached the vacuum advance hose, there was vacuum being supplied to the advance at idle, thus advancing the timing and increasing the idle speed.  The idle speed screw on the carb was then backed out to slow the idle back down which would stop the dieseling.  Vacuum advance shouldn't occur at idle on these cars and yours did for a couple of possible reasons.  1) The hose was connected to the wrong port on the carburetor. Or 2) if the hose was connected to the correct port on the carb, the port on the passenger side of the metering block, and there was vacuum there at idle, meaning the primary throttle plates are open too far at idle. 

 

Not to speak poorly of GM enthusiasts,  many are very bright and I used to work as a GM technician for many years, but some GM methods just don't apply to Ford's and visa-versa.