9.48 deck

[po51 21]

I posted this on VMF, thought I'd post it here also in case anyone has more thoughts on the topic!

 

I want to rebuild my tired 1969 351W into a 408 stroker. I'm concerned that the kits are all for the 9.50 deck and may be to high in the block if I have to have any re-surfacing of the block? Would I be better with a 393 stroker set up? Don't want to loose the cubes but I also don't want to run into the hassle of to tall of pistons, any thoughts?

[barnett468 418]

I posted this on VMF, thought I'd post it here also in case anyone has more thoughts on the topic!

 

I want to rebuild my tired 1969 351W into a 408 stroker. I'm concerned that the kits are all for the 9.50 deck and may be to high in the block if I have to have any re-surfacing of the block? Would I be better with a 393 stroker set up? Don't want to loose the cubes but I also don't want to run into the hassle of to tall of pistons, any thoughts?

 

What did they say over there?

 

its a simple addition and subtraction question, did the batteries in all their calculators die?

 

i know for a fact that there are at least 2 smart regulars over there that could have easily answered this for you if they wanted.

 

You absolutely came to the right place however, and you should stay here . . There are a couple other ex VMFR's over here . . That's all I'm gonna say....for now, lol.

 

i will post some info for you in a while if no one else does.

 

As far as the 408/410 kits go, there are several that leave the piston a few thou below a stock deck so there is room to surface it but since your block has been scalped a whopping .020", it is more of a challenge but none of the kits will leave the piston .020" above the deck even with your shaved one.

 

This being said, one easy solution is to use a .060" thick head gasket instead of the usual .040" thick one etc didn't they tell you that over there? . . its not rocket science . . you can get them from cometic . . here they are . . i guess they couldn't find these either . . just click the thickness and bore size you want..

 

http://www.shopengineparts.com/parts.aspx?eid=16&cid=40&type=engine&vtype=Domestic+Auto&make=Ford&model=289%2c+302%2c+351+%26+351C

 

there is nothing really "wrong" with a piston coming above the head surface by maybe .020" at the most as long as there is enough clearance between it and the head.

 

Keep in mind that if you have a block line honed, the crank moves up in the block which shortens the distance to the deck.

 

It would be helpful if you posted your exact goals and budget and we could suggest a few different packages.

 

69sportsroof whom is a member over there and here has a high hp Windsor stroker engine with a cast crank that simply refused to blow up for the longest time.

 

 

 

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[barnett468 418]

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ok, here ya go . . be sure to tell them over at VMF where you got the answer and whom you got it from...barnett468 . . and tell anyone else over there that they can always ask over here if they want a quick, helpful, accurate and courteous answer to their questions.

 

1.235 ch

2.000†= Crank stroke divided x 2

6.250†= rod length

9.485 = total

9.480 = blocki height

0.005†= piston above deck

 

If you use pistons with 1.230 compression height and the rods i posted, the pistons will be at 0 deck.

 

These are all the 1.230 compression height pistons.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/search/make/ford/engine-size/5-8l-351/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor/department/engines-components/part-type/pistons/compression-distance-in/1-230-in?N=4294951343%2B4294951338%2B4294951337%2B4294949512%2B4294914196%2B4294859230

 

 

These are all the 1.235 pistons.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/search/make/ford/engine-size/5-8l-351/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor/department/engines-components/part-type/pistons/compression-distance-in/1-235-in?N=4294951343%2B4294951338%2B4294951337%2B4294949512%2B4294914196%2B4294819488

 

 

6.250 rods

 

http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/connecting-rods/make/ford/engine-size/5-8l-351/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor/connecting-rod-length-center-to-center-in/6-250-in?N=4294925198%2B4294951343%2B4294951338%2B4294951337%2B4294880345&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending

 

 

There, that took me all of 10 minutes . . Perhaps the VMF guys were simply too busy trying to get their own cars to run PROPERLY [or just run at all] to answer you, I just don't know.

 

 

PS - Feel free to say "Hi" to stan and dodgestang at VMF for me.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

what kits are you looking at?

 

cometic can make various thickness of head gaskets if needed.

 

6.25 rod and a 1.23 ch piston with a gasket to make up for the rest.

 

http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/SRPPRO/Ford/inv_dome-pro.aspx

[1969_Mach1 333]

I am familiar with the 9.48" deck height of the 69 and 70 351W block.  I would try Probe Industries.  I believe they are familiar with the shorter deck on the 69 and 70 block and can put together a kit for you.  Probe should have pistons with the correct compression height.  I spoke to them once about pistons when I was building my motor.  I didn't have the funds for a stroker kit.  They actually recommended staying with the 69 block because it is stronger in the main web area than 71 and later 351W blocks.  Mine is still a std stroke motor but I ultimately ended up with Ross Racing forged pistons. I wanted something better than cast aluminum and at the time Summit Racing had Ross Racing flat top off-the-shelf forged pistons with the correct compression height in stock.

[barnett468 418]

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any manufacturer one calls will try to sell you their products, that's their job . . there are several different mfg's that make products that will work for the same app . . some of the products are better than others or are simply better suited for a particular app . .  the links i posted above contain about 50 of them.

 

if one is searching for data, it is best to check more than one source . . forums like this where the members have often used the exact product in question are one good place for real world info.

[barnett468 418]

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I just looked at your thread over there and I see why you came over here to get an answer, lol.

[po51 21]

I'm looking atali several kits from CHP performance they seem to have quatity part at several price points also they are located in Southern California where I live so I can go ask them questions, I noticed that several of their kits offer rod lenghts of 6.200 and 6.250 with the same pistons any ideas why? I just want to gather as much info from you guys as I can before I go talk to them, thanks for all your help!

[Rsmach1 71]

Here is another .060 head gasket option if you need to go that route. A lot cheaper too. http://m.summitracing.com/parts/sce-536086

[1969_Mach1 333]

Before buying anything you might want to actually measure the deck height of your block after it has been squared and line honed if you intend to do that as well.  The head gasket surfaces are usually too pitted to use as is.  Just saying this because in the end mine measured in at 9.475".  In my opinion, try to avoid thick head gaskets to save a situation with pistons sticking out above the deck too far.

[po51 21]

This is the kit I'm looking at, it will put my compression just under 10 to I with my reworked cast cast iron heads( I'm staying with my orig heads) looking for around 400 to 425 hp  have weined intake and holley 650 double pumper

 

 

Item Code

12360-PS-F408W Vendor Name Probe Industries Product Type Engine Kit Product Model Pro Street Engine Displacement (cu.in.) 408 Engine Family FORD-LINCOLN-MERCURY - Small Block 351 Windsor Based V8 Balanced No Piston Manufacturer Probe Industries Piston Part Number 12360 Piston Material 2618-t61 Forged Aluminum Piston Top Type Reverse Dome Piston Head Volume (CC) -22.0cc Piston Base Bore (in) 4.000 Piston Compression Height (in) 1.280 Ring Type Moly-Pre Fit Crankshaft Vendor Probe Industries Crankshaft Part Number 10055 Crankshaft Material 4340 Forged Steel Crankshaft Stroke (in) 4.000 Crankshaft Main Journal Size (in) 3.000 Crankshaft Rod Journal Size (in) 2.100 Connecting Rod Vendor Probe Industries Connecting Rod Part Number 10081 Connecting Rod Material 4340 Forged Steel Connecting Rod Length (in) 6.200 Connecting Rod Type H-Beam

[Rsmach1 71]

OK you know your iron heads, even reworked are going to be a big choke point in a stroker. I have nothing against the old C90E castings, mine were reworked by one of the best places on the west coast and I use em on my 69 351w, and they make decent power. But I would not use them on a stroker. IMHO.

[1969_Mach1 333]

I also use my reworked C9OE heads on my 351W.  I'm kind of with Rsmach1 about using them on a stroker.  But on the other side, for the hp range, 400-425 hp they might work.  I'm sure there will a lot of opinions.  That's a tough call.  I'm kind of partial to using the OEM castings.

 

On another note, if I recall, Probe Industries was initially only catering to Fords, so I'd feel comfortable going with them.

[barnett468 418]

Here is another .060 head gasket option if you need to go that route. A lot cheaper too. http://m.summitracing.com/parts/sce-536086

 

Xlnt find, I have not seen those . . Unfortunately they are out of stock and wont ship until 5 – 19 – 2015 and they are $47.00 each, so I asked Mr Google if he knew any other place to get them and he said they can be had for only $36.00 each now at the place below.

 

http://m.summitracing.com/cart/add/sce-536086            

 

Jegs also has them for $47.00 and will ship on 5-8-2015.

 

http://www.jegs.com/shop/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=116102&partNumber=829-536086&langId=

[Rsmach1 71]

I just can't see spending that kind of $ on a stroker, especially when the guy next to you passes you with his properly prepared stock crank/rod AFR185 equipped 351, but to each his own.

[barnett468 418]

 

This is the kit I'm looking at, it will put my compression just under 10 to I with my reworked cast cast iron heads( I'm staying with my orig heads) looking for around 400 to 425 hp  have weined intake and holley 650 double pumper

 

As Rsmach1 says, its not practical to use stock heads . . to get a true 400 hp or more at the crank, you will need aluminum heads . . it will cost you around $1500.00 to get your heads to where they will get you close to those numbers and it still wont be as good as aluminum heads so there is no good reason to do that.

 

You had only 3 replies to your question in 2 weeks at VMF and not a single one of them was helpful to you in any way . . You have around 7 here now in less than 24 hours. As I mentioned, this is the place to be . . There is a very good reason several people from VMF left there and came here.

 

Several of us here can tell you EXACTLY how to build your engine to get the most out of it if you want.

[barnett468 418]

I just can't see spending that kind of $ on a stroker, especially when the guy next to you passes you with his properly prepared stock crank/rod AFR185 equipped 351, but to each his own.

 

or a honda ricer.

[Rsmach1 71]

One more note on your iron heads, be very careful with your compression ratio, I see you live in CA as do I, where we get crap 91 octane gas compared to the 93 most everywhere else. Choose your CR and cam wisely, or you will end up fighting detonation, retarding your timing, and loosing HP. Do a Web search on "Dynamic Compression Ratio" before you go out and spend your $.

[barnett468 418]

.

 

I use the parts below . . It will cost you around $45.00 more but you will get longer engine life with the Mahle or JE pistons . . I use the Mahles often . . They can be bored tighter than most other piston which increases engine life and power . . They also have the widest skirt of all the aftermarket pistons which also increases engine life . . They also have a low friction coating.

 

This kit also uses a .050" longer connecting rod than the Scat kit which improves rod ratio slightly.

 

Ford racing warrantees their engines for 2 years or 24,000 miles and they only use Mahle pistons.

 

 

Eagle p/n . . 435140006200 . . 4340 forged steel . . $623.97

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-435140006200/overview/make/ford

 

 

Eagle p/n . . 6250B3D2000 . . 4340 forged H beam rods . . $539.97

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-6250b3d2000/overview/make/ford

 

 

Made in the USA

 

JE SRP p/n 206061-8 . . 4032 low expansion pistons . . .030â€. . 19 cc . . $580.32

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/srp-206061-8/overview/make/ford

 

 

JE SRP p/n 206062-8 . . 4032 low expansion pistons . . .040†. . 19 cc . . $580.32

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/srp-206062-8/overview/make/ford

 

 

Made in Germany

 

MAHLE p/n SBF230030I20 . . 4032 low expansion pistons . . .030†. . 20 cc . . $667.13 with rings

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mahle-PowerPak-Pistons-for-SMALL-BLOCK-FORD-INVERTED-DOME-4-03-Bore-SBF300030I20-/281338043016?hash=item41810dda88

 

 

MAHLE p/n SBF230030I20 . . 4032 low expansion pistons . . .030†. . 20 cc . . $784.52 with rings

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mle-sbf230030i20/overview/make/ford

 

 

MAHLE p/n SBF230040I20 . . 4032 low expansion pistons . . .040†. . 20 cc . . $784.52 with rings

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mle-sbf230040i20/overview/make/ford

 

My kit

 

. $623.97 = forged crank.

. $667.13 = forged pistons with moly plasma rings

. $539.97 = forged H beam rods  

. $100.00 = bearings

$1931.07 = total 

 

 

CRANK DAMPER

 

you will also need a new crank damper . . i use the ones below . . either way, buy one with the correct number of bolt holes for your pulley.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/ati-performance-products/part-type/harmonic-balancers/make/ford/engine-size/5-8l-351/engine-family/ford-small-block-windsor/outside-diameter-in/6-325-in/engine-balance/external-28-oz-imbalance?N=400250%2B4294943542%2B4294951343%2B4294951338%2B4294951337%2B4294906829%2B4294924846&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending

 

 

LIFTERS

 

i use morel link bar 5323 stockers, 5327 limited travel and 5879 high perf . . if you are on a budget, i would use the 5323 but your power might suffer a little . . howards cams, bullet cams, and colorado speed have the best prices on them.

 

 

PUSH RODS

 

you need some of those . . i often use .080" thick wall 5/16 one piece.

 

 

OIL PUMP

 

box stock mellings or a blueprinted one . . take the stocker apart including the valve and clean it first . . if you spin the engine over around 5800, i would install a high pressure spring . . summit racing has them.

 

 

CAMSHAFTS

 

Lost of them will get you 400 hp if you have good heads . . below are just 2 . . you can also get custom cam.

 

comp cams xfi236hr but have them grind it with 112.5 lsa

 

https://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1670&gid=289

 

 

HEADS

 

this is the best deal on heads . . $1650.00 a pair . . use these exact ones with either piston i posted and have around 9.8 - 10.0 compression.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-52516601-c01/overview/make/ford

 

 

afr 185.00 . . $1600.00 a pair . . 6 mm lite weight valves . . use them with 6.0 cc flat top pistons for around 10.6 compression

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/afr-1387/overview/make/ford

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[1969_Mach1 333]

One more note on your iron heads, be very careful with your compression ratio, I see you live in CA as do I, where we get crap 91 octane gas compared to the 93 most everywhere else. Choose your CR and cam wisely, or you will end up fighting detonation, retarding your timing, and loosing HP. Do a Web search on "Dynamic Compression Ratio" before you go out and spend your $.

No kidding we have bad fuel.  I have had good luck with Torco Accelerator added to 91 octane pump gas.   I only heard or read good things about the Torco Accelerator.  I haven't heard detonation on mine and it seems to run good.

 

I wanted to maintain the stock 69 351W 4 barrel static CR of 10.7:1.  I don't drive mine much so I used to mix race fuel that was available at local motorcycle shops.  That's is no longer available so I now add Torco Accelerator octane booster to 91 octane pump gas. 

[Rsmach1 71]

Good to know, I lowered mine to 10:1 and with the old iron heads I still had to back the timing off somewhat. I'm in the process of freshening it up, was gonna try Race gas brand concentrate, I'll give torco a look also. Thanks for the heads up.

[sportsroof69 13]

Lol..the bitterness remains I see. The internet is a fun place.

[sportsroof69 13]

You are wasting your time building a stroker with those heads though. You'd be better off spending the money from a stroker kit on a set of heads, and putting them on your 351.

[barnett468 418]

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you dont really need a forged crank for your app.

 

the kit below will work for your app and it is $600.00 cheaper than the scatt kit you are looking at and it has cast crank forged I beam rods . . the $685.00 savings will nearly pay for 1/2 your afr heads.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-16123040/overview/make/ford

 

 

even the heads below would be far better than your stock heads even if you ported your stockers and they are only $1250 a pair . . just get pistons with the right amount of dish like around 24 - 26 . . if you can only find 30 dish then you can mill the heads to get your compression correct.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-51410010-m61/overview/make/ford

[barnett468 418]

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