High temps

[etel64 10]

Ayat, here is what it is. I have a fresh motor 351w, 30over, mild cam, roller tip rockers, high volume aluminum water pump, high volume thermostat, 3 core aluminum radiator, twin electric fans, stock heads ported and polished,600 Holley, pertronix ignition, Dougs headers.:thumbup:

 

Motor has about 200 around town miles on it and its still running around 235 degrees !!!! :helpsmilie:Man this seems high for all the efforts I went to make sure it ran cool.

 

Motor was freshened up by a very reputable shop who I have not contacted as of yet. Motor has not been fine tuned.

 

Question: how much effect does the timing and mixture have on an engines running temperature?

 

Any other suggestions or thing to check would be greatly appreciated.:clap:

[MaxLT 10]

First thing I'd verify is that your temp sender is ok, you may be ok and just have an inaccurate reading.

 

If that checks out, ignition timing is more likely the problem, the cam wasn't degreed properly, or the head gaskets were put on backwards but any reputable shop shouldn't make that simple of a mistake.

[etel64 10]

thanks MAX. the other strange thing is its not spewing. Ive heard 10, 12 & 14 btdc is good. its presently at 10. does the temp increase with degrees or decrease? throttle resaponse is good and in gear idling is good. I also have march pullys and they are the same diameter.

[MaxLT 10]

If you have too much or too little timing the motor can run hot.

 

I kind of go backwards from most people when I set my timing. Almost all small block Fords run best and longest with no more than 36 degrees total mechanical advance so that's what I dial in. Since the OE advance springs are a little on the stiff side slowing the advance curve I run the lighter distributor advance springs to get it to hit full advance by 3000 rpms. (if it's too quick to go to full advance then I'll use one light tension spring and one original spring).

 

To set it up, I disconnect the vacuum advance, rev it up to 3500-4000 rpms and set the timing at 36 btdc. After that, where ever the base idle timing setting winds up being is usually just about right. Then I take it for a ride and if it pings I'll adjust the vacuum advance assembly and remember the vacuum hose needs to be attached to the port above the throttle plates so that it's not getting any vacuum signal at idle.

 

You may want to invest in a cheap $15.00 laser temperature reader and see what temp you are actually running at before you start messing with the timing though.

Edited June 18, 2012 by MaxLT

[69gmachine 15]

That's a great idea Max, especially if you don't know how much mechanical advance you have. If you know how much mechanical advance is already built in, then you can just do the math (36-mechanical= initial).

[Lemon Owner 11]

I find it unlikely that timing will make much difference. I really think you need to get an accurate reading before you adjust the timing.

 

Timing settings are very individual to engines and fuel used. You can have 20 degrees of initial timing and it will have much more down low torque. You can then recurve the dizzy to a max of 36 degrees as said earlier all out by 3000rpm. One way I read in a engine mag once was to advance the timing until the engine had trouble cranking then back it off a little. Check there is no pinging and that was a pretty good start.

[miketyler 15]

Timing and mixture are usually at the top of the list but Don't forget vacuum leaks can cause overheating. Have you checked vacuum yet?

Edited June 19, 2012 by miketyler

[buening 63]

I really think you need to get an accurate reading before you adjust the timing.

 

 

+1. Get a mechanical temp guage (if you want a correct readings all the time) and hook it up and verify the temps. If you don't want a separate gauge, the laser temp reader would work well. You can also take a meat thermometer and stick it into the fins of your radiator core near the inlet tube on the passenger side.

[SM69Mach 68]

Also make sure you have bled off the air in the coolant system. Sometimes air pockets can cause some issues with temp reading with the sensors, but everythign is running just fine.

[sportsroof69 13]

Too little timing will most definetly make one run hotter, and 10* is very little. Set it at 34* full advance, and see if it helps.

[coz 108]

Also make sure you have bled off the air in the coolant system. Sometimes air pockets can cause some issues with temp reading with the sensors, but everythign is running just fine.

 

 

This gets my vote... More common then you think but the radiator might need burping.

 

Fire up the engine, remove the radiator cap(before it gets hot) and see if you see water exchanging. Check your top hose (with cap on) when warm and see if the hose is stiff. If so, maybe your thermostat is bad/blocked. If blocked, pull the thermostat and boil it in a pan of water to see if it opens.

[1969 Mach1 14]

High temps can be tough to chase down. What type of aluminum radiator is in the car? I haven't seen a three row aluminum radiator. I have only seen one and two row aluminum radiators. However the rows are wide. Mine is a Griffin with two 1.25" wide rows. The March pulleys are always a little suspicious. Also, did I miss the temp rating on the theromstat you are running. Also, if the timing and engine tune checks out o.k. you might check into that 600 cfm Holley being just a little too lean out of the box for a 351w.

 

Good luck

[Fordrevhead 29]

All good suggestions here so far. Also, do you have a shroud and what fan? Absolutely mandatory esp on a new build. Second, I have had engines built on the tight side also running March underdrives, where despite everything I had to run a special order 150 degree thermostat the first summer until it was broke in. Second season back to stock thermostat and no problems. Your builder would fight the warranty and rightfully so if its run hot! This is another reason a lot of shops run and dyno tune the engine for some break in time.

[etel64 10]

This is a 69 351W that I swapped the inlet to the drivers side.

 

Thanks for the suggestions all. stopped running it since last drive it hit 251 degrees. Im pretty sure the digital gauge is darn close since I cannot put my hand in front of the electric fan air. REALLY FRIGGIN HOT! Called the engine builder today and kicked around lots of plausable ideas. Didnt do the top advance down thing yet but did bump it to 15 degrees. Added water wetter. Head gasket tabs are showing on the outer front of the heads like they are supposed to be. Water Pump is a Hi Volume Moroso and the matching HV t-stat. Idling is at 235 degrees. This thing is still not spewing!!!! WTH man?

 

Anyone know what a CCW vs a CW water pump differences are? I imagine the impeller blade is opposite of the other but which way is is supposed to be for a CCW? Maybe I got a CW in a CCW box? When sitting in the car, the engine turns CW. Summit says the CCW,CW direction is from the front of the engine.

[69gmachine 15]

CCW is for a serpentine belt arrangement. You would have to be runnig a late style WP like is found on an 84 up 5.0.

[miketyler 15]

FWIW, I have never seen water wetter or any other type additive products make a noticeable change in operating temps.

[MaxLT 10]

I tried for several years to get my electric fan setup (with cross flow aluminum racing radiator) to properly cool my engine. It was a 17" fan and 3000+ cfm with a shroud and it just couldn't keep my car cool at idle, with the a/c on, or in slow traffic. I seemed to spend more time watching the temp gauge than I did enjoying the ride.

 

Finally put my old flex-a-lite mechanical fan back on and the problem went away. When I was using my electric fan the air within a few inches of the fan was very hot, but with the flex-a-lite the air all the way back to the shock towers is hot so it's moving lot's more air at idle. I've got to admit, I did like the look of the electric fan but with such a small radiator opening it seems like we're fighting an uphill battle trying to get such a large volume of air moving fast enough with an electric fan to displace all the heat of the engine.

[buening 63]

It was a 17" fan and 3000+ cfm with a shroud and it just couldn't keep my car cool at idle, .....

 

What kind of fan was it?

[etel64 10]

Well, didnt get a chance to do the suggestions today. Thanks very much for helping with all the suggestions. I am first going to do the burping deal first thing tomm. If no luck there, then remove the new Milodon high flow 180 degree t-stat. I do feel it working. opens at the 185 mark and lets the water flow, not crazy fast or anything either. This is a Champion 3 core rad with twin 12" fans on a shroud. Sucks smoke in from 2 feet away. The water wetter idea came from a blurb about it being suggested for aluminum rads and the mfr claims. figured $10 couldnt hurt the situation. Did tach the engine to make sure the bottom hose wasnt collapsing also. Will let yall know the outcome. Thanks again.

[etel64 10]

Well, did the burp deal. I think I did it right. Fired it up with the front tires 3" off the ground. open cap. let it heat up till the t-stat opened. great flow through the rad! flow coming in from the top hose towards the pass side intake hose on water pump. Temp went to 195 with cap off. put cap on, lowered car it walked up to 220 degrees. had to shut it down. let it cool to 200 and got cap off, yes, released pressure slowly. ran it again with cap off, it went to 220 again and I shut it down. errupted and let about half a gallon out.:cursing:. how many times do you need to burp this thing?

 

let me get this CCW & CW deal. Engine turns CCW when sitting in the car when they specify CW on the pumps, do they mean from the front of the car?

 

Will be removing t-stat later once it cools.

[1969vert 55]

CCW belt will usually ride under water pump pully with a idler pully...like a late model..CW like early cars belt will ride the top of the pully then to the crank..If a ccw rotation pump is used it will work if you spin it the right way..

[etel64 10]

thanks 69vert. but this is a 69 351W converted to a 70 pass side intake. not sure what the late model part has to do with it. Engine turns CCW when sitting in the car but the pump I am supposed to have and is installed say its a CW. Is this the rotation from the front or sitting in the car?

[1969vert 55]

pm me..

[Fordrevhead 29]

Think like a mechanic not a driver when they specify direction. What u have sounds fine. Switching to a 70 crossflow rad doesnt change the direction of the pump. Only if you run a later model reverse wrap does that happen.

[etel64 10]

Yesssssss ! Well after the burping didnt correct the issue. I figured it was time to just take the friggin t-stat out and see what happened. Before doing so, I started thinking that when it erupted with the cap off meant it had the pressure in the block behind the t-stat. So eliminating the t-stat could be the problem Well, got it out and the so called "high volume" t-stat just didnt look right. Anyway, run without and idled it. Went to 191, fans kicked on and the temp came down to 184 ! WAHOO:thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:.

Sometimes it is the simplest things!

Thank you all very much !