Depressing setback - idle & timing

[TexasEd 191]

Tried to adjust idle and set timing tonight on my 69 with 302-2v after watching some youtube videos because I've never done it before.

 

The Idle was apparently set too high on purpose to hide other problems. I think I'm either going to have to replace the carb or rebuild it. I don't know how much confidence I have in the Holley 2300 that is on it now and it leaks I think it is the reason idle was set too high. Could be to compensate for the leak?

 

Timing was interesting, there are two yellow marks on the wheel and I set to one and it seemed to run ok, but there are no numbers so I have no idea what it is set to. It ran better with it set to the right one with vacuum advance on, I removed vacuum and it moved almost all the way to the left mark and then I set it with vacuum off and reconnected vacuum. I read that factory spec was 6B but I read in several forums to start at 10. If there are only two marks on the wheel what would they be? If I had to guess I would say they were about 1.75-2" apart.

 

I tried to drive around the block but was beset on all sides by sputtering, surges, and bogging down. It got worse as I drove, thank God I made it back to the driveway - thought I was going to have to push it in the garage.

 

 

I was gliding along pretty happily until this setback -how crappy the car is running. Tonight was depressing. I was hoping to have it all set to drive to a cruise in this weekend. Back to reality.

 

Thanks for all your patience with my n00b questions.

[chillininnh 21]

After sitting so long a carb rebuild shouldn't surprise you. Try setting the timing with the vacuum off to the mark on the right. Be sure to plug line. It's possible the left mark is 0 and the right mark is idle timing. It may just be a matter of driving the car around with a wrench for the lock down and trying the distributor in different spots until it runs smooth. Good luck Ed, it takes time working out the kinks, you'll get it.

[Fordrevhead 29]

Ed, get a vacuum gage and read this website completely at least twice. This is the best advice I can give anyone with an old stock carburated engine. Actually, almost anyone on this forum, even seasoned tuners, will probably learn something here.

 

http://www.centuryperformance.com/tuning-with-a-vacuum-gauge-spg-148.html

[jmlay 80]

You need to find TDC & get a timing tape for the balancer before going any further.

[TexasEd 191]

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm a little more positive today.

 

Ed, get a vacuum gage and read this website completely at least twice. This is the best advice I can give anyone with an old stock carburated engine. Actually, almost anyone on this forum, even seasoned tuners, will probably learn something here.

 

http://www.centuryperformance.com/tuning-with-a-vacuum-gauge-spg-148.html

 

I put a vacuum gauge on and with the carb set at 1.5 turns from fully closed on both sides it was pulling 20 inches. Don't ask me what that means though. Thanks for the link, I'll read that page today.

 

Right now I'm working with a really cool set of vintage Sears/Penske - Craftsman tune up tools including the timing light, vacuum gauge and "Engine Analyzer" (tachometer) thanks to a neighbor who let me borrow them. I'll have to post a picture of them up tonight because they are so cool.

[chillininnh 21]

20 steady inches at idle is a good start. I'd bet a new carb or a rebuild of you current carb would do wonders. Figuring out TDC and marking it would be a great idea as mentioned. I find it interesting tinkering with this kind of stuff on mine. Read up on it and have fun!

[TexasEd 191]

Couple more questions:

 

What should I look at to determine if I should rebuild my current carb or get a new one? I believe it is a Holley 2300 but I don't know the flow numbers on it. It has electric assist choke which is nice since I don't have the manifold heat riser for the choke. I do have an Autolite 2100 that came in a box but would probably need to be rebuilt too. I'll look for flow numbers on them tonight.

 

Any recommendations for me to get my own timing light? I've seen some that have a digital display with tach on the back. this would be good for me since I wouldn't have to get that separately. My car does not have a tachometer.

 

What's a good source & model of distributor retaining bolt wrench for a 302? I can't get to it with anything straight.

 

Should I go ahead and replace my points with the pertronix ignitor I bought before I try to tune it again? After the car got hot it was really hard to start but starts fine when cold.

[Vegassman 10]

Ed, get a vacuum gage and read this website completely at least twice. This is the best advice I can give anyone with an old stock carburated engine. Actually, almost anyone on this forum, even seasoned tuners, will probably learn something here.

 

http://www.centuryperformance.com/tuning-with-a-vacuum-gauge-spg-148.html

 

Added to my favorites! I'm tinkering with my tune also....thanks! :clap:

[chillininnh 21]

If it was mine I'd be shopping for a new carb, perhaps a 500 or a 570. I like the regular old inductive timing lights, no fuss no muss. I don't like the advance feature, I find it unreliable. The tach jumped alot on my engine but may not on yours. Your friends engine analyzer has a analog tach feature I'm sure, way better IMO. Definitely go with the Pertronix too.

[TexasEd 191]

I planned on doing a compression test last night but didn't have the right socket size for the spark plugs. From that link it looks like the stable 20" vacuum is a good sign that I shouldn't find any surprises there, right?

 

I plan to do some engine upgrades next year, after I get the basics sorted out. I still have power steering and disc brakes in front of me before I get to engine upgrades. This is one of the reasons I think I'd like to rebuild what I have and save for what I want later. I'd hate to buy a new carb now that didn't match what I want to do in the future.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

As for tools, get a good timing light( I like mine with adjustable setting for checking total timing), tach/dewell meter, vac guage and a dist wrench.

 

For the carb, get a rebuild kit for it and fix the leak. You will be more frusterated trying to tune it with a leaking carb.

The Holley 2v's are simple to work on and have instructions in the kit.

Start with a baseline of 1 1/2 turns out from closed on the idles mixture screws and 1 1/2 turns down on the idle speed screw from throttle plates totally closed.

For timing the eng, the vac line to the dist is to be unhooked and plugged.

Set your base timing around 8-10*.

Your hard start problem when warm is too much intial timing, this will cause slow starter motor cranking.

 

Add the pertronics unit AFTER your have a soild running eng.

Switching parts before may add to your troubles.

[TexasEd 191]

Thanks,

 

My first thought was to wait on the pertronix until after I had it running well but I haven't done anything to check the points on it either.

 

I'll stop at Sears on the way home from work and get a distributor wrench and the right size spark plug socket (5/8" right?). What about this timing light?

 

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00914066000P?prdNo=1#reviewsWrap

 

Also how should I clean the balancer wheel so that I can get timing tape to stick? Mine is pretty rusty but access is limited. I could try to clean from the bottom. I read about pulling the #1 spark plug and manually rotaing the engine to find TDC and then marking the balancer. I hope one of the two marks is the right one and I can line the tape up to that if it is. 6-3/8", right?

Edited March 13, 2012 by TexasEd

[cmz69 10]

i would definitely do a carb rebuild for starters. not hard but can be lil frustrating. the kits usually have instructions, as mach1rider said, and you can always look it up on the holley website. i have a rebuild manual that covers 2300, 4100, and 4500 series holley carbs. shot me a pm if you have any questions and i'll look it up for you. good way i hear to find a vacuum leak is spraying starting fluid in the area you think is leaking and wait for engine to sound different. if you do a rebuild, make sure you get the right power valve, think holley has a reference chart online, and might as well rebuild both so you have a back-up. i'd work on the carb before trying anything with the points, and swap them out later. keep note of the idle mixture settings, when you rebuild, count the turns inward prior to removal and don't snug them down. if you don't you could start at 1.5 turns out, but may need to adjust them some more, best to put them back to where they are, this is usually a factory setting.

 

clean up the rust, you should actually find more then your two yellow lines, they were probably painted there by someone else during their tuning, keep note of where they are. you can do this from under the car, when one area is clean hit the ignition just enough the get the shaft to turn and not start, and so on until the the rust is clean. a dremel tool with wire brush or extra fine grinding head works great, or good ole sand paper/wire brush with elbow grease. you may even see some #'s.

 

i believe a socket and ratchet worked good for mine. i don't have a vacuum advance distributor, but would go with capping the vacuum as the main use is during acceleration from my understanding. if you don't have a full tool set, i recommend getting a mechanics set from craftsmen, they have a 260 piece for less then $300. don"t know much on timing lights, but i'd definitely would get one with a tach.

[cmz69 10]

according to the shop manual i have, for 302 at idle rpm's are between 550-1600 at 6*, 26-31 dwell angle, 0.017 distributor point gap, 0.032-0.036 spark plug gap.

 

if the carb rebuild doesn't do much, i'd move on to a spark/distributor problem. hope these help.

[Fordrevhead 29]

Your balancer should look something like this:

 

http://stores.kentuckymustang.com/media/00/a64736b135c9f218264026_m.jpg

 

Your vacuum at idle indicates no vacuum leaks which is a good thing to rule out when having carb problems.

 

6-3/8" harmonic on all of the early Windsors, here's the best deal on tape (I think):

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-163594/

[TexasEd 191]

Thanks again, Y'all are almost as good as living next to a mechanic.

 

I had the carb idling fine at around 800 RPM when in Drive and warmed up with the set screws pretty close to the 1.5 turn from closed. They were originally set 2-3 turns richer than that and the car was idling around 1500.

 

I'm pretty sure I don't have a vacuum leak, just a fuel problem where either too much fuel is pumped into the carb or something else is wrong because the fuel comes out from under the carb spacer on top of the manifold.

 

I'm going to warm it up again tonight, check compression and then pull the carb off and order the parts. I was hoping to put it off until I could get the whole engine degreased at the car wash because you can hardly see anything in there.

 

Hooray! First carb rebuild!

 

While I have it off I'll replace the rubber fuel lines and drain the gas tank.

 

I grounded the sending wire last night to the fuel gauge and it moved so I guess that means either my sender is bad or the fuel is too low to register. I'm leaning towards bad sender.

[Fordrevhead 29]

according to the shop manual i have, for 302 at idle rpm's are between 550-1600 at 6*, 26-31 dwell angle, 0.017 distributor point gap, 0.032-0.036 spark plug gap.

 

if the carb rebuild doesn't do much, i'd move on to a spark/distributor problem. hope these help.

 

.017 point gap... yup, about the thickness of an old "match book cover." LOL

[TexasEd 191]

Here are some more details. The carb is a 7448-1 supposed to be a 350 CFM with kickdown for auto transmissions and manual choke though mine has an electronic assist on the side.

 

 

This is the top with the numbers that made me think it was a 2300.

 

 

The spot where it is leaking is circled. I pulled the throttle with the engine off and looked inside but no fuel was released inside. It dripped out here and you can see where it pools on top of the manifold.

 

Also what is that bolt in the manifold for at the bottom of the pic? It is loose and nothing seems to be connected to it.

 

 

Another issue is that the spacer is only 1/2" thick. It is too short to use the original air cleaner because it sits on top of the distributor. I have another spacer that is 1" thick that came with the Autolite 2100 carb.

 

 

I believe this is a resistor and it seems to be wired into the carburetor, possibly for the electric choke?

 

 

Here is the intake manifold. I can only see the C8AE-942 before it is hidden under the carb. From a web search I'm assuming the rest is C8AE-9425-B. Is this the right intake manifold for 69 F code, I only saw it listed for 68 289 and 302-2v.

It also has 9A17 stamped on it. Is that the date code Jan 17, 1969? I think my car was built in Jan 69.

You can also see some cobbled wiring and the pool. My temp gauge doesn't work and I think it might be the wiring or the sender.

Based on this info what do you all think is causing the leak?

Does it look like I have an original intake manifold?

Should I rebuild this carb, replace with identical new or something else?

Can I use a thicker spacer with it to allow me to use the original air cleaner or should I look for a spacer ring to go on top of the carb?

 

Thanks

Edited March 14, 2012 by TexasEd

[jholmes217 65]

Looks like your carb leak is coming from the accelerator pump. Pretty common to leak there, especially on cars that have sat alot. The intake looks original. I checked the one I have on a shelf in my garage. The original spacer is 1 inch, and has a provision for a PCV hose in it. Which carb to use is up to you. The Autolite 2100 is a good carb with a reputation of "set it and forget it." The Holley is a good carb too, but you may need to adjust it more frequently. If you want original, go back to the Autolite. There is more books and articles out there on tuning a Holley though. Up to you which one to use. Rebuild kits are comparable prices I think. Autozone has a good kit for the Autolite. If you get a rebuild kit for the Holley, only get a Holley kit. Other brand kits for Holley's have been junk in my experience. For example, the NAPA kit has the wrong shape power valve gaskets, and the needle and seats are different.

Edited March 14, 2012 by jholmes217

[TexasEd 191]

Thanks but what to do about the manifold heat tube and shield for the carb's choke? I don't have those parts. Saw a heat shield on eBay for $100 yesterday.

 

Right now the PCV is hooked up to the .5" spacer. You can see the hose in the pic.

 

Edit: I'm leaning towards rebuilding the Holley and using a different air cleaner. Looking at it again I think the Monte Carlo bar would hit the snorkel on the original one anyway.

 

Anyone have an idea of what the resistor is for? I'll start unwrapping wires later. I still need to do a compression test and degrease the engine before I go too much farther.

Edited March 14, 2012 by TexasEd

[LoneWolf2U 136]

The leak is the accel pump, long periods of sitting and the seal drys out.

There is no spacer under your carb, what your calling a spacer is the carbs baseplate. Rebuild the carb,Install the 1in spacer you have and use eather port for your pvc hose and plug the other.

 

That is a resistor, If it is hooked to the choke it helps to keep the choke from opening too soon. A full 12v to the choke coil will make it open faster.

 

That loose bolt is a mounting bolt for the coil or bracket.

Check the wiring and connection to your temp sender, My guess there is an open there under that tape bundle.

 

The intake is correct for your engine.

[TexasEd 191]

Thanks,

 

 

Having an original intake is cool, probably the original one to the car. All the originality in this car makes me want to keep it that way as much as possible.

 

The resistor is ugly and needs to be hidden, any suggestions others have used? I might put it on the wall under the starter solenoid.

 

With all the splices in wiring under here I'm thinking of replacing it all. I'll need to look for some of those replacement 90 degree boots for the terminals. Is there a wiring kit or should I just make one? I have plenty of AWG 18 wire in various colors from my model train hobby.

 

My coil is mounted on the front of the engine block behind/above the alternator.

Edited March 14, 2012 by TexasEd

[jholmes217 65]

Thanks but what to do about the manifold heat tube and shield for the carb's choke? I don't have those parts. Saw a heat shield on eBay for $100 yesterday. Check CJ Pony Parts, Carbontooters, Mustangs, Unlimited, etc. It shouldn't be too hard to find reproduction heat tubes and shield. The one you saw on Epay was probably an original.

 

Right now the PCV is hooked up to the .5" spacer. You can see the hose in the pic. I don't think you have a spacer at all. That looks like the carb base plate.

 

Edit: I'm leaning towards rebuilding the Holley and using a different air cleaner. Looking at it again I think the Monte Carlo bar would hit the snorkel on the original one anyway. Don't know about this one. I'd say try it if you are wanting to stay with the original look. If it doesn't work, then go aftermarket.

 

Anyone have an idea of what the resistor is for? I'll start unwrapping wires later. I still need to do a compression test and degrease the engine before I go too much farther.

Do you have an aftermarket ignition coil such as MSD, Accel, or Malory? I usually see those resistors used with high performance coils.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

If your going to clean up the wiring, Dump the resistor and run a wire from the Sta term of the alt to the choke coils +side and a ground wire to the intake.

I replaced the slipon boots for ring ends with a washer and nut.

They were trashed and I wanted a more solid connection.

 

Try installing the spacer first before changing the air cleaner, I think you'll find it fits much better.

[jholmes217 65]

Here's another thing to consider while you are trying to tune your car. How old is the gas? Modern gas goes bad faster than it used to. If the gas is more than 6 months old, it may be bad.

 

+1 on what Mach1Rider said about the spacer before changing air cleaners. For that matter, +1 one on what he said at the top of the page before my last post! I didn't check page three of the thread before I replied.

Edited March 14, 2012 by jholmes217