Look at what I found in my oil pan!

[6T9Mach1 12]

A larger head will run great over 3000 RPMs but be more sluggish below that

 

I'd like to see your proof of this.

 

351 with 9:0 compression and a XE270Hr cam

 

9.0 static compression with that cam would leave you with under 150 psi cylinder pressure...there is absolutely no reason to run 9.0 compression with that cam. Compression is your friend when trying to make power.

[69gmachine 15]

I'm with 6T9 on this one. A modern Windsor head like the AFR 205 or the TW190FAC will keep the airflow up just fine well below 3K on a 408. That long stroke can pull a lot of air through the engine. I think the 205 is the perfect match to a 408.

 

Yes a 185 will still make a lot of power, but what little the 205 gives up on the low end it more than makes up for in the mid range and top end. I don't know if i still have them, but MM&FF ran a head comparison a few years ago. They didn't have an apples to apples comparison because they used a bigger cam with the bigger head IIRC, but you can still see that the bigger head did just fine at the bottom end.

 

Running a compression ratio below 9.5 is a bad plan for any modern performance engine. What a waste of potential. I'm running 10.1 and I use the mid grade gas without any problems. My engine is stone reliable as it is my daily driver now. I'll concede that it doesn't idle well until it's warmed up, but that's a small concession to have over 500hp and 500ft-lbs in a 408 IMO.

[Angel 24]

OK! So I've been getting different opinions on which heads to go with. I called Hawaii racing and I spoke with the owner. He does not recommend TFS heads because of all the things that need to be used in order to run them. He said I would run into problems. He recommended edelbrock performer rpm heads(170cc). I called eddings engine, a well known machine shop around here, and asked for a quote on some machine work. I also asked about his opinion on heads for a 408 stroker. He recommended the 185 tfs or afr heads. Some of you guys say 170, some of you guys say 185. A year ago when I started thinking about this engine build, my initial plan was to go with a 185cc head because of the displacement. The main reason why I considered the 170 head is because they were on sale for $999.99 a pair. I know Im going to have to order special length push rods in order to use the TFS heads but honestly, I dont mind because I was probably going to do that anyway. Its important to have correct push rod lengths or the rocker tip may not be centered on the valve end. So TFS it is.

 

Now, what size? 170 or 185? With all these different opinions, I decided to just call Trick flow themselves. The rep was real helpful and answered all my questions. I told him what my plan was and that it was for a DD. He first told me about them being on sale. Then he said that the 170 would work well for my needs. However, they were going to restrict the engine at higher rpms...we all figured that. He said a 185 would perform just as well as the 170 but also perform better at mid to high rpms. At this point he mentioned the 190 heads that 6T9 had advised. He said that although it wasn't on sale, at $1,449.95, it was right between the sale price of the 170($999) and the 185($1599). He said he recommends this head because the chamber is CNC'd but the runners are cast to keep costs down. Also, the 170 heads use their original casting from back when they first debuted. The 190 uses a new better performing casting but still retains the goods of the 170. So I think that's what I'll be going with. Since its not on sale there's not need to buy them yet so I'll hold off till I need them. Hopefully they go on sale in the following months. Now the search for a stroker kit begins:biggrin:

[1952 10]

I'd like to see your proof of this.

 

 

 

9.0 static compression with that cam would leave you with under 150 psi cylinder pressure...there is absolutely no reason to run 9.0 compression with that cam. Compression is your friend when trying to make power.

 

Sounds like SBF tech..Bigger must always be better and any opinion

other than your's is to be challenged ?

maybe you could show proof of your claim ?? since you are challanging me.... even with a magizine dyno test ???

 

If he is going to run a 2800-3500 RPM stall Yes bigger may be better..But not for fuel economey

 

I have proof in my 52 went from 170cc TW to 185cnc 6 months ago

 

Lost low end torque..after 3000 RPMs they start pulling better but really dont show there stuff till about 4500..But i expected that

You may come visit me any time I still have the 170cc and the 52 has the new 185 on it now

 

I also have a set of Z304 cnc Ported good for 335 cfm

would not even atemp them on a low RPM 351

 

Now on my 363 ... 7500 RPM turbo engine The Big Z304 heads work just fine

 

 

Have you noticed that in the hotrod dyno test of the TF heads they started the dyno pull at 3000 RPMs ??

 

Port Section...length and Volume tell most all

 

And the XE270 is a Great daily driver cam..Yes even for 9.0 compression and capable of 400 HP and will keep him Detonation free Always

and still give him admerable fuel economy

 

Please allow my Opinon..... I never challanged yours :blink:

I was only trying to help a guy interested in a daily driver.. Not Looking for a Drag racer and helping him spend his money in the proper areas

for a daily driver..Not everyone has unlimited funds

 

 

have a Nice day :surrender:

 

1952

Edited April 16, 2010 by 1952

[6T9Mach1 12]

He recommended edelbrock performer rpm heads(170cc).

 

I would find someone else to give you advice for heads then. :wink:

Edited April 16, 2010 by 6T9Mach1

[6T9Mach1 12]

Lost low end torque..after 3000 RPMs they start pulling better but really dont show there stuff till about 4500..But i expected that

You may come visit me any time I still have the 170cc and the 52 has the new 185 on it now

 

How did the bigger heads lose you low end torque?

 

Have you noticed that in the hotrod dyno test of the TF heads they started the dyno pull at 3000 RPMs ??

 

So, am I to imply that TF heads dont make power under 3000 rpms? :lol:

[1952 10]

How did the bigger heads lose you low end torque?

 

 

 

So, am I to imply that TF heads dont make power under 3000 rpms? :lol:

 

We all have opinions

as the Port size went up the 1500-2500 RPM range suffers some.

Most guys could care less about that because they run a 2500-3500 RPM stall

As I read what this guy wanted was a Every day driver

 

I can BURN LESS RUBBER with my 185s ....I only have a 1300 RPM stall

My show truck

I lost 1.5 MPG with the larger head

 

 

The 170cc had it from 1300-3000 RPMS over the 185 and the 185s have NO measureable gain till about 4500

When I talked to the TEA guys they did warn me the 185 does it best work midrange

They were right

I have spent way to much money on GO fast parts to Not know whats up

and yes 185s make power..BUT not quite as much as the 170 from 1300-3000..and are the same from 3000-4500

then all hell breaks loose with them..they really make about 35-50 HP more with a street cam from 4500-6500

If he is going to use a 400 CI the 185 would work better in the LOW RPM range

As I read your Signature you would LOVE the 185 your more into LETS beat the next guy..lol

Not knocking you just giving you REAL world facts in MY experience and the Experience of TEA as well as Most RAGS out there

The 170Cc tw is really more like a 180 CC head do to Port width

the 185 is even bigger But makes Much more power up high

I just really feel if 400/400 is the guys goal he does not need the 185

The 170 will support 450/450 flywheel HP no problem

So he could save some money on this sale

So how is your 357 comming ???

I really like your car

 

1952

Edited April 16, 2010 by 1952

[6T9Mach1 12]

I agree that you can have too large of heads on a motor if using an OTS cam or a cam with the wrong valve timing events. With the right timing events it will take advantage of the increased flow and make more power, even down low. I dont disagree with you that the 170's are enough head for his 351w, but if he eventually wants to build a 408 the 170's will be too small and the 190's are the right head. In the mean time the 190's, with the right cam, will work just fine on his 351. You are correct in saying that the 170cc TW's are like a 180-185cc AFR head; TW port length is 1.75" while the AFR and other inline heads are 2.0" which is the stock port length. As far what "rags" say about performance parts, most of them arent worth the paper they are written on lol.

 

Thanks for the compliment about my car. My car is coming along slowly. Waiting on a camshaft right now. Motor should end up being around 530-550 hp; ported set of Canfield 192's (a little over 200cc's now), Vic Jr. and solid roller cam. Tires are going to get expensive I believe ;)

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

always easy to spot the sbfwxyz readers...

[PaleRider 12]

Ok I give what are sbfwxyz readers

[1952 10]

Ok I give what are sbfwxyz readers

 

Small Block Ford tech website

 

Tread lightly and Drink the Koolade..........LOL

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

Small Block Ford tech website

 

Tread lightly and Drink the Koolade..........LOL

 

agree.

[6T9Mach1 12]

Lots of guys making huge hp over there with combos that go against "the norm". Some of us dont care to run GT40 heads and dual plane intakes for the rest of our lives :wink: I'm sure that my 357w will be terrible on the street with a Vic Jr. intake, 850 mighty demon, 1 3/4" primary headers with 3.5" collector and a solid roller cam :rolleyes:

 

Of course everyone is open to form their own opinions. I dont care for the overall attitude of the sbftech site but the tech is good. Stuff being state over there has already been tried and proven by people with more know-how and money then I have.

[1952 10]

Lots of guys making huge hp over there with combos that go against "the norm". Some of us dont care to run GT40 heads and dual plane intakes for the rest of our lives :wink: I'm sure that my 357w will be terrible on the street with a Vic Jr. intake, 850 mighty demon, 1 3/4" primary headers with 3.5" collector and a solid roller cam :rolleyes:

 

Of course everyone is open to form their own opinions. I dont care for the overall attitude of the sbftech site but the tech is good. Stuff being state over there has already been tried and proven by people with more know-how and money then I have.

 

Yes it is a Great site for Information...But some of it is flat wrong

And I really dont enjoy some of the Koolade

 

The real probem is ...(other than a couple HUGE attitudes) You must already have a Very good Knowlege base to know when you are being Fed Bad information

 

the Internet is NO substitute for real experiance and schooling

 

Now days Anyone can become a Internet Expert

 

I pose a question Quite Often....did you check your Distributor End play ??

 

If i dont get a Sound YES..I know I am Not dealing with experianced engine builder..Just Internet assembler blowing Steam

 

It is Just one of Many things (distributor End Play) that can have a big effect on engine Longevity and Oil pump/Distributor drive gear and shaft problems

 

But we are All addicted to the Internet are we not ?? :tongue_smilie:

 

I guess we just take the Information we like and go with it and don't look back

 

As far as LOTs of Guys over there making HUGE power ???

 

Everyone has 800HP on the internet...lol

 

A few really do .......... MOST do not

 

and Most are just Kids living at Home with nothing better to do other than arguing on the internet and putting thier cars Daddy paid for on a U tube Video

 

I like your Combo.. One nasty Stang

 

 

 

1952

Edited April 18, 2010 by 1952

[Angel 24]

So I ended up going with the 170's that were on sale for a couple of reasons. First, just about everyone agreed that these heads, although on the small side, would be enough for 400hp/400tq on a 408w. I know everyone said that the 185's or 190's would flow better on the top end, but the fact is, my rpm's are usually below 3500. Every now and then I would gun it and let it go up to 4500rpm's. That's about it. Although now with more power, that may change:shifty:.

 

Second, although it would be nice, I really have no need for more than 400hp. Im guessing that on a good day, my engine was making around 250hp. That was enough to get me into some scary situations so 400hp should be just fine. Plus, I think I'll be able to re-use my intake and 650 speed demon this way...probably not but well see.

 

And finally, should I not be happy with the numbers and I want more, since I got them on sale, I can probably sell them used for the same amount that I paid for them new. If my trade off is power for fuel economy, that's still something I could live with. With the 190's, I may end up trading fuel economy for power, which will hurt my pocket every time I pump. So when I weighed them side by side, the 170's seemed to fit my needs better. If they don't then I'll let my little kid loose and just buy the larger heads lol.

[6T9Mach1 12]

Since you saved a little money getting them on sale it may be worth it to send the heads out to Total Engine Airflow in Talmadge, Ohio to do a good bowl blend and massage the ports a bit. These heads can be fairly substantially with just a little work to them. May also want to have them check out the factory valve job to see if it is up to par. TEA is in the same building as Trick Flow; they know these heads inside and out.

[Angel 24]

Honestly, I'm really curious as to how much power my combo will make with these heads. I know most of you guys wouldn't do this but I'm going to run the 408 with these heads and my 650 speed demon. Money is not so big of an issue, but obviously if I could save money that would be great. I figure I was planning on buying a 750 demon anyway so I may as well just try the 650 and see what numbers I get. I mean, a carb swap is easy to do. I think the air gap RPM intake will work for both carbs and both heads should I choose to buy the larger ones later. I'll be going with a custom ground cam for this engine. If I go with the larger heads and carb later, that cam will probably be the only think that I won't be able to re-use. But I think its worth the risk.

 

Has anyone used trick flow pistons? Is there any power gained by using them with TFS heads?

[6T9Mach1 12]

If you are going to go with a custom cam then I would talk to your cam grinder about what components to run. That way you will get the best possible running combo.

 

Get a complete 408w rotating assembly; dont just buy pieces here and there. It will be cheaper buying a kit. With the twisted wedge heads you will want to get a piston that has the valve reliefs cut for the twisted wedge valve pattern.

[MikeStang 247]

Well here are some real world numbers and build stats on a Board Members car that I have driven down the strip on a regular Basis.

Car is a 69 Mach 1 Full dress with 5 spd TKO Tranny and 3.50 Gears running a 393 with STOCK untouched heads....Had a few valves replaced and a good valve job, no 3 angle job that we are aware of. Cam is the Comp XE 274 off the shelf grind Specs out at 230/236 @ 50 lift is like 491/510 I think on a 110 lobe. Carb is an 800 Holley with a Performer RPM Manifold...Car has run a best of 12.60@ 109 with a 1.74 60'....So if you run the numbers this engine with BONE STOCK CAST IRON heads is doing pretty damn close to 400 Hp at the crank i believe. If we could get it to hook and be able to just dump the clutch with out blowing the tires it would be faster, but at this point we are traction limited with ET Street Radials.....And there is no doubt in my mind this thing will roast a new Camaro SS, because I have been driving the car and roasted a New Vett, May be all in the driver tho :P So just about ANY new aluminum head will put you at your goals, just have to make your decision based on alot of information.....WE are upgrading to a set of Fox Lake racing heads in the future, and aiming at 500 plus hp and be streetable......And who really cares about gas mileage...He was getting about 18 MPG on the last long trip...Its not about miles per gallon its about Smiles Per gallon :)

Mike

[Angel 24]

So I called trick flow again and asked about the advantages of running their pistons with their heads. The rep said that there really was no performance advantage and that the main reason to use them is for valve clearance, that is, if using a large cam. He said that for my needs and cam selection, any flat top piston will do. That's what I wanted to know. I was curious as to how much more power they would produce over regular flat tops. Guess little, if any. So yea I'll just be buying a kit.

 

Any particular brand you guys would recommend? I am interested in buying a kit from SCAT. I've read good things about them from many sources and am interested in their cast 9000 series set-ups. Here's a kit from summit that looks promising.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-1-94305BE/

 

Let me know what you guys think. Also, have any of you guys used CamQuest from comp cams? I downloaded their free version and input info from my combo. It didnt allow me to increase the stroke of the engine so all the numbers were used with a 351w, not a 408 stroker. But everything else was close to what I'll have. When I input the flow numbers of the 170 tw head, the program estimated 420+ hp with just about any cam they recommend. But I think the numbers are inflated in their favor.

[BuckeyeDemon 211]

shouldn't you get the pistons after your block has been decked (you know the final deck height), you know the final volume of the head chamber (after any chamber work) and you have selected a target CR?

 

i would think a true flat top would push your CR beyond what you want.

[1952 10]

Before you buy pistons use the for compression calculations

 

Very Accurate

 

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

 

 

I think you are going to need a Piston with a 25-30 cc DISH to arive at a compression ratio

you are looking for with a 4.0 stroke

Are you sure you want to spend the extra money going with a 400??

The piston might cost more for your application

check the cost between a 390 and 400 kits make sure your getting a piston with

the kit that will give you a streetable compression

 

Flat tops won't work for you

 

Just a thought

 

 

So I called trick flow again and asked about the advantages of running their pistons with their heads. The rep said that there really was no performance advantage and that the main reason to use them is for valve clearance, that is, if using a large cam. He said that for my needs and cam selection, any flat top piston will do. That's what I wanted to know. I was curious as to how much more power they would produce over regular flat tops. Guess little, if any. So yea I'll just be buying a kit.

 

Any particular brand you guys would recommend? I am interested in buying a kit from SCAT. I've read good things about them from many sources and am interested in their cast 9000 series set-ups. Here's a kit from summit that looks promising.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-1-94305BE/

 

Let me know what you guys think. Also, have any of you guys used CamQuest from comp cams? I downloaded their free version and input info from my combo. It didnt allow me to increase the stroke of the engine so all the numbers were used with a 351w, not a 408 stroker. But everything else was close to what I'll have. When I input the flow numbers of the 170 tw head, the program estimated 420+ hp with just about any cam they recommend. But I think the numbers are inflated in their favor.

Edited April 23, 2010 by 1952

[1952 10]

i would think a true flat top would push your CR beyond what you want.

 

 

X2 A flat top would give you compression in the 11:1 range

[69gmachine 15]

Angel, you will easily achieve your 400HP goal, and if you'll keep the compression between 9.7 and 10 to 1, you should make between 420 and 430 with a streetable cam. Flat tops in a 408 will push you over 12:1, so you need a dish. The nice thing about the TW pistons is the dish matches the chamber, so you'll have good quench, although any piston that has a flat section corresponding to the head deck will work. Your goals are very reasonable, and you will absolutely love driving your car.

 

In your previous post in the Garage section you asked if anyone has over 400 HP in a daily driver. What someone considers "streetable" is going to vary from person to person, but it most definitly is my daily driver. My engine will idle all day long without overheating. There's almost no power below 2000 rpm, but with a manual trans, I can deal with that. My lowest cruising RPM is about 1800, which puts me at 50mph in 5th gear. With your milder combo you should have power down to 1200, and with a .64 OD trans, you should be capable of 20 mpg on the highway and 16 to 17 in town even with 3.70 gears. I'm a big believer in annular primaries, so if your Demon doesn't get you there, try an Autolite or Summit 600.

 

Since there are many skeptics on our forum, I cut and pasted my dyno sheet below. I've driven my car to work every day this week (10.5 miles each way, posted speed limit of 50 although everyone does 60 except through the school zone, 3 redlights between my house and where I park at work) I'm averaging 14 mpg this week. With my 22 gallon ('70) gas tank, I will easily get another week of commuting in before I need to fill up. While some people may not consider 14mpg to be "economical" it's certainly worth it to me.

 

A6825 CRATE.CFG CRATE.FRC May 9 '08 8:01 AM

McKeown Motorsport Engineering Inc. (301)-246-9225

 

 

 

DEPAC # 54 Fri May 9 '08 7:18 F700 Flow Tst# 6825 4100 to 6000 RPM

CRATE.CFG CRATE.INF 29.92" Dry Air @ 60F FUEL SG .714 Time 5.3

BARO:29.92 Disp:408 Bore:4.03 A tmp:60.6 jet:0

Example Text Overlay that is copied to FUTURE Test Runs.

Customer: Reyna Engine:408 Windsor IGN Timing:36 total

Comments: Timing File:

Manifold: Edelbrock Torker II

Carb: Holley 3310 735CFM

Spacer: OEM 428CJ

Muffler:

Cam Degree:

Header:

Air fuel:

#CF Held at RPM Band 5800

 

 

RPM C TORQ C PWR BSFC FUEL P OIL P WAT T

BAND Ft-Lbs CHP #/HrHP psi PSI Deg F

4105 489.0 382.2 0.517 7.25 69.3 131.1

4200 493.7 394.8 0.50 7.25 69.3 131.1.

4300 491.6 402.5 0.48 7.25 69.5 131.1

4400 500.5 419.3 0.46 7.25 69.7 131.8

4500 489.6 419.5 0.46 7.35 69.5 131.6

4600 489.7 428.9 0.44 7.35 69.7 131.6

4700 492.2 440.5 0.42 7.25 69.7 131.3

 

 

4800 522.0 477.1 0.4 7.15 69.4 131.1

4900 522.3 487.3 0.4 7.15 69.1 131.1

5000 512.7 488.1 0.45 7.15 69.3 131.1

5100 516.9 501.9 0.4 7.35 69.4 131.1

5200 507.9 502.9 0.45 7.35 69.1 131.3

5300 497.3 501.9 0.46 7.25 68.6 131.8

5400 492.8 506.7 0.5 7.15 68.6 132.1

5500 487.8 510.5 0.5 7.15 68.6 132.1

5600 484.2 516.6 0.47 7.15 68.3 132.1

5700 479.4 520.3 0.5 7.15 68.3 132.1

5800 487.4 537.5 0.4 7.35 68.3 132.6

5953 462.5 524.2 0.47 7.35 68.3 132.6

AVRG 500.33 434.02 0.460 7.240 69.44 131.7

AVERAGE RESULTS From <4105> RPM to 5000 RPM DEPAC # 54

Edited April 23, 2010 by 69gmachine
spelling

[1952 10]

Nice numbers

 

 

1952

 

 

 

Angel, you will easily achieve your 400HP goal, and if you'll keep the compression between 9.7 and 10 to 1, you should make between 420 and 430 with a streetable cam. Flat tops in a 408 will push you over 12:1, so you need a dish. The nice thing about the TW pistons is the dish matches the chamber, so you'll have good quench, although any piston that has a flat section corresponding to the head deck will work. Your goals are very reasonable, and you will absolutely love driving your car.

 

In your previous post in the Garage section you asked if anyone has over 400 HP in a daily driver. What someone considers "streetable" is going to vary from person to person, but it most definitly is my daily driver. My engine will idle all day long without overheating. There's almost no power below 2000 rpm, but with a manual trans, I can deal with that. My lowest cruising RPM is about 1800, which puts me at 50mph in 5th gear. With your milder combo you should have power down to 1200, and with a .64 OD trans, you should be capable of 20 mpg on the highway and 16 to 17 in town even with 3.70 gears. I'm a big believer in annular primaries, so if your Demon doesn't get you there, try an Autolite or Summit 600.

 

Since there are many skeptics on our forum, I cut and pasted my dyno sheet below. I've driven my car to work every day this week (10.5 miles each way, posted speed limit of 50 although everyone does 60 except through the school zone, 3 redlights between my house and where I park at work) I'm averaging 14 mpg this week. With my 22 gallon ('70) gas tank, I will easily get another week of commuting in before I need to fill up. While some people may not consider 14mpg to be "economical" it's certainly worth it to me.

 

A6825 CRATE.CFG CRATE.FRC May 9 '08 8:01 AM

McKeown Motorsport Engineering Inc. (301)-246-9225

 

 

 

DEPAC # 54 Fri May 9 '08 7:18 F700 Flow Tst# 6825 4100 to 6000 RPM

CRATE.CFG CRATE.INF 29.92" Dry Air @ 60F FUEL SG .714 Time 5.3

BARO:29.92 Disp:408 Bore:4.03 A tmp:60.6 jet:0

Example Text Overlay that is copied to FUTURE Test Runs.

Customer: Reyna Engine:408 Windsor IGN Timing:36 total

Comments: Timing File:

Manifold: Edelbrock Torker II

Carb: Holley 3310 735CFM

Spacer: OEM 428CJ

Muffler:

Cam Degree:

Header:

Air fuel:

#CF Held at RPM Band 5800

 

 

RPM C TORQ C PWR BSFC FUEL P OIL P WAT T

BAND Ft-Lbs CHP #/HrHP psi PSI Deg F

4105 489.0 382.2 0.517 7.25 69.3 131.1

4200 493.7 394.8 0.50 7.25 69.3 131.1.

4300 491.6 402.5 0.48 7.25 69.5 131.1

4400 500.5 419.3 0.46 7.25 69.7 131.8

4500 489.6 419.5 0.46 7.35 69.5 131.6

4600 489.7 428.9 0.44 7.35 69.7 131.6

4700 492.2 440.5 0.42 7.25 69.7 131.3

 

 

4800 522.0 477.1 0.4 7.15 69.4 131.1

4900 522.3 487.3 0.4 7.15 69.1 131.1

5000 512.7 488.1 0.45 7.15 69.3 131.1

5100 516.9 501.9 0.4 7.35 69.4 131.1

5200 507.9 502.9 0.45 7.35 69.1 131.3

5300 497.3 501.9 0.46 7.25 68.6 131.8

5400 492.8 506.7 0.5 7.15 68.6 132.1

5500 487.8 510.5 0.5 7.15 68.6 132.1

5600 484.2 516.6 0.47 7.15 68.3 132.1

5700 479.4 520.3 0.5 7.15 68.3 132.1

5800 487.4 537.5 0.4 7.35 68.3 132.6

5953 462.5 524.2 0.47 7.35 68.3 132.6

AVRG 500.33 434.02 0.460 7.240 69.44 131.7

AVERAGE RESULTS From <4105> RPM to 5000 RPM DEPAC # 54