Need Opinions: C6 vs T5

[BillW 0]

My information is the M code in the VIN in 1969 was the 4V 351W. In 1970 it became the 4V Cleveland but Ford used some 4V Windsors when they didn't have enough Clevelands.

[Jurisd 10]

Now, boys, boys... Actually, I don't profess to be an expert, nor even to know as much as many of you. But from what I've read, most of what people have said is correct. The "M" when referring to a VIN did in fact mean a 351W 4V in 1969 (according to my red book) which made 300hp compared to the grocery-gettin' 250hp for the 2V. in 1970 and later, the "M" when referring to a motor means a sister motor to the 351C based on the 400 block. I plan to pull a valve cover as soon as I get past the "if I mess with it at all it will start leaking" fear, and I'll let you know what I find.

 

On the trans question, S-Code nailed it - I knew what I want, but wanted to test it, I guess. I have always preferred a manual; finally got one in an M3 convertible (turns out I am NOT a BMW person) and loved it. But, the transmission shop was really insistent about keeping the C6, so that made me decide to shake the tree a bit before dropping $3k+ on the swap. You all confirmed what I already knew - I should do the 5-speed swap, treat it nicely, and never have regrets. Now, where did I put that $3k...?:blink:

[SlimeGold 69 15]

Jurisd,

 

S code isn't arguing with you but with me and simply stated - he's wrong about the Cleveland as are most people when it comes to things they know little about. I'm certain he know way more about Mopars than I since I have little experience with them but we are on a Ford forum.....

 

Here is the Cleveland Wiki page and the 335 forum pages. If you want to know about Clevelands this is the place to go.

http://351cleveland.wetpaint.com/

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

 

First mistake is assuming just because an engine is in a car that they must have been sold that way. If that were the case then I guess Ford offered a Chevy 350 in their 1932 models since I've seen 100's of them with Chevy 350s. Simply stated there are no known examples of any 1969 Mustang regardless of style that ever came from a Ford plant with a 351C. Even Ford will tell you this - though some 1970 models came with Windsors before the Cleveland engine was ready.

 

Second mistake is assuming the M in 351M means mid block. It stands for Modified and was primarily created for the truck industry as the heads offered mega torque but sacrificed HP. These engines were commonly called the 351 stump puller. There is no such thing as a mid-block, at least not in the Ford arena.

 

Third mistake is assuming an engine can only come in one flavor. The Cleveland style engine came in many flavors - 2V, 4V, Aussie 302, the 400 and of course the M or Modifed version. The commom theme among them was the block and deck height (9.2).

 

Fourth mistake is assuming that an all original car will always out sell (bring more) than a modified car. My Mach was originally a 351W 2V, FMX auto with 3.00 open rear gears. Otherwise known as a low end grocery getting Mach. I doubt it would be worth half what it's worth now had I left it original. Not against original cars - I love them when they are well appointed and have some options sought after but even 40 years later a low end Mach is a low end Mach.

 

+1... That pretty much sums it all up. Now if people will only believe it, but for some reason this is a confusing subject for most and the whole 69 351C "big block" thing will never die. Too many 351's to get mixed up on.

Edited June 25, 2009 by SlimeGold 69

[70Mach03 12]

We always say there were NO 351 Clevelands in any Fords prior to 1970, however this was at the 2005 Carlisle All-Ford show:

 

 

 

...and yes I know it was a prototype and boy would it have been fun. This is why I never say never (LOL).

[Pakrat 1,043]

Yeah you can't count a prototype as part of that for sure, not in any conversation about any part in any production car, the board does clearly say not in production until 1970 though. It's pretty safe to say never here I think.

 

Alot of this whole debate (which honestly there shouldn't even be one because today's facts are clear) is based on faulty publicated information through out the 80's. There are many books out there that even while claiming to be licensed and official have misinformation in them that has been past down to many folks and when folks read something in print they tend to take it for gospel and urban legends are born and often over shadow the truth. There are even folks out there who claim that their 69' is a family owned car and has always had a Cleveland in it. Odds are though that the correct Windsor probably had a defect and got a factory warranty replacement sometime in 1970 after the changeover. Memmory is very selective.

 

Here's some perfect examples taken from the movie industry. Most anyone including movie buffs like myself would swear that these quotes are correct and the majority of people believe this so, but they are all wrong.

 

1. Darth Vader never said: "Luke, I am your father"
   
2. The Evil Queen in Snow White never said: "Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all?"
   
3. Dirty Harry never said: "Do you feel lucky, punk?"
   
4. Humphrey Bogart never said: "Play it again, Sam"
   
5. Hannibal Lector never said: "Hello, Clarice"
   
6. No one on Startrek ever said: "Beam me up, Scotty!"
   
7. No one in Gone with the Wind ever said: "Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn"
   
8. No one in Field of Dreams ever said: "If you build it, they will come"
   
9. Dorothy Never said: "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto"
   

The list goes on and on and some of you right now are thinking, no way, I love that movie, I remember that, but you're wrong.

[PaleRider 12]

I'll bet that prototype is worth some bucks.

[RogerC 136]

Now, boys, boys... Actually, I don't profess to be an expert, nor even to know as much as many of you. But from what I've read, most of what people have said is correct. The "M" when referring to a VIN did in fact mean a 351W 4V in 1969 (according to my red book) which made 300hp compared to the grocery-gettin' 250hp for the 2V. in 1970 and later, the "M" when referring to a motor means a sister motor to the 351C based on the 400 block. I plan to pull a valve cover as soon as I get past the "if I mess with it at all it will start leaking" fear, and I'll let you know what I find.

 

FYI The engine code "M" in a 1969 VIN meant a 351 4V (windsor variety as the cleveland didn't exist yet) as stated above. However in 1970, the engine code "M" in the VIN could mean a 351W 4V or 351C 4V due to the reasons stated by coz.

 

351M (M=modified) not available in 69 or 70 = same block design as 351C except ~1" taller. 351M & 400 = same block.

 

OP

Love my manuals, drove one daily for years. I feel more in control of the car with the manual. Will do again when the 69 is done unless my left knee problems I'm having right now turns into something more serious or permanent. Unrelated to driving. If so, I guess I'll be selling the toploader and going C6 or AOD.

Edited June 25, 2009 by RacerX

[coz 108]

Hey - I just re-read my post and well - I was an A$$ to S-Code. I didn't need to get all huffy over something that wasn't even the original subject.

 

S-Code - SORRY! I was the reason why Dick can also be a verb...

 

A couple of years ago I was schooled (blasted) by a 351C expert when I was writing about what I had heard about the Cleveland. I was wrong but he was an A$$ and I didn't like... But here I am doing what he did and I apologize.

 

Jurisd - why do you think you have M heads? Looking directly above plug #1 can you see a 4 in the corner of the head? Right at the corner of the head and the VC.

[S code 69 13]

COZ no problem, we all get that way from yime to time.

 

I learned something out of it anyway, I know well you can't go by what you see on ebay but I can't recall how many 351 Cleveland Mach 1's I've seen for sale. chances are some of the owners don't know themselves so it's an honest mistake.

[Jayru 17]

I'd just like to add one more thing in regards to the 4 speed vs. 5 speed.

 

Period correct or not, 4 speeds have the sloppiest shifting ever! They are external linkage/rubber parts with super long and "vague" feeling throws. I couldn't believe how bad my 4 speed felt. The shifter could actually be moved around while it was in gear!

 

Even with a stock 5 speed shifter it's tight and precise! Go with a Steeda tri-ax or a pro 5.0 and their even shorter and tighter!

[Jurisd 10]

Topic 1 - Heads. Coz, I'm not sure what to think. Assuming I'm looking at the right place, it looks blank to me. But if you see something, or if a different camera anlge is needed, please let me know. I would be delighted to find a 4, or a 2 for that matter. Based on S-Code's comments about the 4's needs, I'll also be changing out my grocery-getting 2.79 gears...

 

Topic 2 - T5. Having decided to throw caution (and my wallet) to the wind, I got my first bid today. With little kids at home, I don't think I can tackle the swap. I wanted to get people's reactions, as I had in mind about $2k for parts, and ~$700 labor. A very reputable shop in Orange County quoted almost $5k for the swap. $1400 for a new T5z, $350 for aluminum flywheel (which I don't want), $479 for a new bellhousing, $300 for a 10.5" clutch, plus smaller stuff like pedals, bolts, fluid, etc. The labor was $1300-ish, including 12 hours labor and driveshaft changes and u-joints, etc.

 

I'm reasonably OK with the labor cost - 12 hours seems fair to do a soup to nuts swap. But are there things I should do to drop the parts cost down? A rebuilt T5 saves a couple of hundred, but not sure it is worth the risk. I could probably install the pedals and cable clutch, but not sure that saves much. Maybe the bellhousing? I've read about using the T5's or the original Ford one (does that apply when talking about coming from a C6?)

 

Were my expectations just unrealistic?

[S code 69 13]

I've never priced this stuff but that sounds high to me, but it still isn't going to be cheap if you do it right.

 

I'm not sure what the 1st and reverse gear ratios are in a 5 speed but with your rear end gears they better be deep, a 3.25 is about as high as you want in a 4 speed so even with a 5 speed and a lower 1st I bet you're going to be way high. so add another $300+ for a ring and pinion installation to the conversion.

 

If cost is a factor just pick up a good C6 they're everywhere and have a shop freshen it up, put it in and drive. in the mean time you can be buying the parts you need for the conversion when you find a good buy and have the money. if you do put a C6 back in be sure to change out the shift arm while it's apart so you can put the proper shifter in, of course figure about $400 for the arm, rod and shifter set up but that's all saleable stuff when you're done with it.

[ForceFed70 14]

I'd re-think the idea of having a shop do the swap for you.

 

It's really not that hard. The T5 transmission is remarkably light, I couldn't believe how much lighter it was than my FMX. Pretty much 1/2 of the weight.

 

I'm never satisfied when I take my car to a shop. Either I feal like I ended up paying way too much (The bill always seems significantly higher than quoted), or if they stay on budget I'm not happy with the finished product.

 

But seriously.. I'd do the swap yourself. It's not very difficult. I found that getting the clutch pedal and linkage in was just as hard as actually swapping the transmissions. If you take it to a shop and let them source all of the parts, you're looking at a $5000+ bill by the time you pay taxes, etc. Do it yourself for $3000 (if you buy a full kit and all new parts, there are cheaper ways to do it)

Edited June 27, 2009 by ForceFed70

[Jurisd 10]

Do it yourself for $3000 (if you buy a full kit and all new parts, there are cheaper ways to do it)

 

Still toying with that idea - I certainly was not satisfied with the last $1200 I dropped getting little stuff done.

 

So in terms of full kits, I've seen Modern Driveline, and Keisler Engineering. (Keisler quoted $3200 for a T45RS with hydraulic clutch and all the rest of the parts). Are those the best sources for a DIY kit, or are there others to suggest?

 

More importantly, I would like to see a true step by step instruction. I've reviewed most article's I've found online, but there's not a lot of detail about installing the clutch pedal, etc. Any books or publications that go into detail? That would help me assess whether to undertake this myself.

[S code 69 13]

As long as you get the right parts it wouldn't be a hard job if you have any mechanical ability at all. even if you did what you could and gave up someone else can always finish it.

 

Most of these projects look a lot harder than they are once you get into it.

[coz 108]

I installed a Keisler TKO600 from bellhousing to rear (installed a Moser 9" at the same time). What started out as a long weekend ended up taking two weeks. There were issues with clearance, spacers, driveshaft angle and other little "gotchas" that stop/started the project. Luckily a buddy who owns a garage was able to keep it up on a lift during that time.

 

There is a lot to a tranny install - more if going from auto to manual. Without a lift I think that adds a level of effort. When calling around for installation quotes, the Keisler guy put me in contact with a guy in the area that had done dozens of installs for Keisler placing their trannys in Vettes, Camaros and Mustangs and he quoted me 20~24 labor hours. Now that did include the hydraulic clutch set up which added 2~3 hours. In reality, it took us half a day to get the little bastard connected through that small-ass hole in the bellhousing. Remember, you most likely will need a new driveshaft or have yours cut and re-balanced. I would also upgrade to 1350 U-joints and new yokes if you keep your drive shaft.

 

So whatever you think it's going to take add 50% IMO. I do the same with items I buy - I always mark them up 50% for all the little things you need or forget.

 

So as S-Code points out, they look more diffucult then they turn out to be but there is always something you forgot or have to modify in the process. If it's not your daily driver and it can sit up on stands or a lift for a while - have at it. Only downside I can think of is if you give up, you don't usually have a rolling vehicle to get it to a shop for them to complete.

 

For the heads - I'd post that picture on the 335 forum and see if they can ID it. Otherwise, pull a VC and start looking for casting numbers.

[bcorbin 10]

Jurisd, That does seem slightly high but not rediculous. My 69 351W originally had a C6 and a PO along the way put in a 4spd toploader which was in it when I bought it. It needed a rebuild so I decided to go with a T5 instead. So the point is the clutch hardware was already installed in my case. I paid between $2K and $2.5K for parts and $1100 for labor at a shop in North San Diego County. Once it was installed I also had to spend a couple hundred more 2 have a driveline shop get the angle(s) at the rear end correct as I had a vibration at 65 mph.

 

I bought all the parts myself and delivered them to the shop as they came in. This meant that there was no warranty on the work. I was personally OK with that. If you let the shop buy everything and install it you should get a warranty. The shop I used spent more time than they thought they would but did not charge me for the extra time. They gave me a flat labor rate.

 

If you are in So. Cal. and are interested, because of a back order situation I ended up with an extra, new in box Ford Racing aluminum bellhousing and mounting plate I do not need. Send me a PM if you would like.