Need Opinions: C6 vs T5

[Jurisd 10]

For those of you tracking my C6 tribulations, the story comes to an end. I took it to a local transmission shop. Turns out the PO sold me a POS transmission. First gear is frozen, and I have indeed been driving in third gear. Ouch.

 

I was ready to start the shop down the T-5 swap path. Interestingly, the trans shop owner strongly recommended I fix the C6, since I'm evidently the owner of a 351C with 351M heads (go figure), and might make more torque than the T-5 can handle. Got me thinking, and I want some views from you all...

 

1. If you had your choice (all other things equal), would you prefer a stick or automatic?

2. If auto, why? The convenience, sore clutch foot, or other considerations like keeping to original or resale-ability?

3. If a manual, would you want a newer T-5/TKO, or a period-correct 4spd?

4. Finally, if you were going to buy my car (in ten years when I hit the lottery and move on to a '66 Shelby Cobra) would you be more or less interested in it because it had a T-5 (or a C6)?

 

Thanks - editorial comments most welcome!

[S code 69 13]

That's a lot like asking what color do you prefer, but there are a few other things to consider. what model is the car and does it have potential value? if it does you're going backwards to change the tranny. do you plan on putting it on the strip at all? if you do the C6 is better from a speed and a tearing things up standpoint. is cost a factor? C6's are a dime a dozen and you can put a decent stall and the correct shift arm in it and have a nice car for less money than a swap. one big disadvantage to a 4 spd is you are so much more likely to destroy something if you get carried away, I own a '70 440 six pack 4spd Challenger that would kick butt at the local classic drags but I won't do it because I have too much money in the restoration and I don't want to destroy something , if it has a 727 in it I would run it with little worry.

 

 

Then we have the personal prefference issue, until I bought my Mach 1 all my cars have been 4 spds because I prefer them, but my Mach 1 is staying a C6 because I prefer an original car to a morgafied one. so to sum it up there is no advantage what so ever to a manual transmission, in fact there are draw backs, but I still preffer them for reasons I can't put my finger on.

[Jurisd 10]

S-Code - All good points, I appreciate the input. But don't worry about not knowing my motivations - I'm really interested in people's personal opinions, no matter how subjective. I don't plan to track it, other than maybe a Friday Night Drags once or twice. It is a convertible so has value there, but neither the 351C motor nor the C6 is original, so I'm already pretty well lost on the investment. I would like to feel I could get my original purchase price back, plus maybe the cost of the swap ($2000?)

 

In sum, growing up with my Powerglide Skylark, and later with an automatic '85 Vette, I always lamented not having a stick (since in my mind and others' that was a "real" muscle car). You are right - logic points to rebuilding the C6, so I really am about trying to gauge whether my unexplained bias for manual trans. is misguided, as compared to my peers (you all).

 

I'm putting your vote in the T-5 slot, since much like me, you're preference overrode the logical choice. :biggrin:

 

I still would like more inputs, though. Particularly on the last one - would you be more interested or less interested in a car with a stick, and is that because it is not original, or because it is not an automatic?

[Jayru 17]

To me... anytime i look into the interior of any 60's muscle car and see an automatic i say Lame...

 

Auto's are just sooo boring to drive! I think it really detaches you from the driving experience. There's just nothing like the feeling of slamming gears on a straight patch of road, or for that matter using the gears/rpm's to guide you through a windy mountain road!

 

My vote's T5 all the way! If I'm not mistaken, a C6 is a non overdrive trans right? Running the T5 will give you an overdrive gear for great highway cruising, and you can step up to steeper gears for more power/acceleration 1st through 4th.

 

If you're worried about power output, you can step up to a Tremmac 3550 for the extra torque handling for a few hunderd more over the cost of the T5. I ran a Tremmac in a fox body mustang that made 560hp to the wheels and it never broke (and i beat the hell out of that car)!

[S code 69 13]

It's all what you like, I like a 4spd but would never put in an aftermarket transmission myself, not saying it's wrong just saying I don't like it. I'd take an original C6 over a JC Whitney set up any day. the conversion to a toploader would be the route I'd go if I just had to have a 4spd, but get your wallet out if you go that way.

 

Don't say you've lost the collector value, most convertibles were small blocks so if you've got a 351C that's worth a little more. numbers matching or not it's still is what it is, while the non original motor cuts the value a little you still have the engine code on the VIN and that's more important. it's no debate a 4spd '69 mustang convertible would be more desireable and worth more than one with an automatic, but my opinion is the conversion to a non original transmission would hurt the value compared to an original C6 unless it's a junker anyway.

 

It sounds like you really want a manual and I know excatly where you're coming from that's why my cars have always been 4spds. but it might be time to rethink that image we got from back in the days automatics were grandpa's cars, you know what drag racers call guys with 4 speeds don't you? first round losers. there is the image of a muscle car, then there is the fastest car, it has the automatic. it all makes you scratch your head.

[ForceFed70 14]

A T5 behind that engine should be fine. The 351M heads (I didn't know you could swap them) are nothing special and I kinda doubt they flow any better than the original 351C heads.

 

For you the choice comes down to standard vs auto.

 

Personally, I used to have an auto and swapped to a T5. There is good and bad to both. With the T5 I got overdrive which was REALLY nice for highway driving with the 3.73:1 rear gears.

 

However, since installing the turbo I'm kinda regretting the choice to go manual. There gets to be a point where you make too much HP for a manual transmission. The lower gears are wasted due to traction issues, and I accelerate through 1st and 2nd so fast that I spend as much time shifting as I do on the gas (granny shifting to try and keep the T5 alive). There are certainly times when I wish I was back to an auto.. especially when trying to go fast. Of course the fun factor is there, along with the coolness of having the manual.

 

It really does come down to personal preference.

[Untame 10]

Just my opinion. I like both autos and manuals.

 

I prefer manuals for road courses and windy mountain roads.

 

Autos are nice for a daily drivers and (in my opinion) drag racing. Also autos are really nice when some sport compact gets the drop on you. You don't have to worry about what gear you're in, how long it's going to take to shift, or the embarrasment of missing the shift. (I know this has never happened to you) This is a good job for a computer.

 

For my application (frequent driver 351w) I am seriously considering an AODE/4R70W. From my research (no personal experience yet) they have a pretty good reputation, they have overdrive and a lock up torque converter, can be built for engines up to 650hp, and can be highly taylored to your application using the transmission controller from Baumann Engineering. I know people have put these in some cllassic mustangs, but I'm not sure they will fit in a 69. They are a bit longer in the bell housing. (I've started a seperate thread on this subject if anyone has any info)

[70Mach03 12]

..................

 

1. If you had your choice (all

other things equal), would you prefer a stick or automatic?

2. If auto, why? The convenience, sore clutch foot, or other considerations like keeping to original or resale-ability?

3. If a manual, would you want a newer T-5/TKO, or a period-correct 4spd?

4. Finally, if you were going to buy my car (in ten years when I hit the lottery and move on to a '66 Shelby Cobra) would you be more or less interested in it because it had a T-5 (or a C6)?

 

Thanks - editorial comments most welcome!

 

1. Manual, it's just more fun with a stick.

2. ......... it's just more fun with a stick. (resale? Not while my heart is ticking)

3. T-5 or TKO, overdrives are cool, and it's just more fun with a stick

4. That's why I bought mine, a 5-speed and it's just more fun with a stick.

[Jurisd 10]

Keep 'em coming, and thanks. So far, I think the summary is that Stick is more fun/more involved in the driving, but the auto is more serious for racing/more practical. I think S-Code has made an excellent point - I can still appear to be true to original with a 4-speed (although were do I find one), but will give up the overdrive.

[Grabber70Mach 107]

Either way you go I would definitely go w/a OD.

[superduty69 11]

Personally a manual trans. is the only way to go, But......

you could get an auto with a manual valve body and shift it your self.:shifty:

 

John

 

P.S. Not all 4 speeds are first round losers, but they take a good bit of practice to do it consistently. Which is the MOST important thing to drag racing. As i am finding out.

[S code 69 13]

You can get all the parts you need to convert to a toploader off ebay and craigslist no problem. the cost is going to be more than to go with the JC Wittney route though, yes the car would be worth more if converted to the proper transmission but you'll have more money in it and give up the OD as well.

 

The OD means nothing to me because I only drive my cars for fun not as transportation. a few miles to the gallon and a few miles longer engine life mean nothing unless you're putting some miles on it. in the end it all boils down to what you want, there's no way to justify a conversion unless you want it, but you don't need any other reason.

[albarnett_99 13]

My car was originally a C6 but the PO tried to make the Mach 1 a Boss 302 clone by installing a Toploader. I drove the Toploader for 3 years before deciding to rebuild the C6. My plans are to install a 390 based stroker down the road...

 

One of the things that sold me on the C6 besides the fact that it was original to the car was the fact that I could shift it manually if desired. A well built C6 (with or without a manual valve body) gives you that option along with piece of mind. In my case, it can handle up to 800 ft lbs of torque, far more than I plan on having with the stroker.

 

Yes, manuals are fun to drive. However, as S Code 69 states, if you are on the street or on the strip the C6 is more effective. I got tired of the stiff clutch and no power steering. I also didn't want to have to worry about a missed shift or other damage. A big block, manual transmission, stiff clutch, and no power steering are fine in a straight line. They aren't much fun if you have to turn or change speeds (ie. on the street). I plan to keep the Toploader in case I change my mind later or decide to sell. I can appreciate how others may prefer a manual in a muscle car!

[bcorbin 10]

My vote is for the manual. I would also go with the T5. My 69 Mach1 (351W) was born with an auto and somewhere along the line a top loader was installed. When I bought the car the top loader needed to be rebuilt. The cost of the rebuild installed and the cost of the new T5 sitting in the box was the same. I had a shop do all the work so I had to add the $$ for clutch cable conversion and other items to get the T5 installed but I am glad I did. The overdrive on the freeway is great. 2000RPM at 65MPH. I never go to the track so the strength of the T5 did not enter into the equation for me. Manuals are more fun and my wife won't drive a stick or a car without power steering so I am covered. I hope she doesn't read this.

[coz 108]

I also vote manual but I'm a stick guy. I'm 45 and just bought my 1st auto - '09 Tacoma double cab. But it's my daily driver so that works for me.

 

I'm also not a 4 speed fan - if you want a stick get a 5 speed and don't waste your money or time on a 6 speed. All you need is one overdrive gear.

 

John (superduty69) is correct. Rarely does a manual win on race day. At least not in the 1/4. Road courses are different and a manual actually helps because you can use the gears as an engine brake or to spin up RPMs prior to a straight away.

 

As to the Cleveland and it's worth - take it from me they are a dime a dozen. But you are in the same boat as I - a non-original car. So take my advice and build it to what you want and damn the purists. Your car is not original so it's a blank canvas.

 

A T5 is fine if you stay at or below their rated HP. I've seen a couple T5's go south because the car had 450+HP. If you are going to get up above 500hp I suggest the TKO600. I have one and it takes every bit of my 587HP/520TQ coupled with 4k launches. And if you are going that way - might as well check out the hydraulic clutch offerings. Shifts like a hot knife through butter - smooth and fast. All it takes is $$$$ and some imagination.

 

As to RPM's I run 2k @ 70mph with the TKO600/3.90 rear gears and a final 5th gear of .64. If I did it again, I would have bought the race version with the .82 final gear.

Edited June 23, 2009 by coz

[S code 69 13]

I would argue that 351C convertibles are a dime a dozen, there were less than 15,000 convertibles made and most I've seen were small blocks. if it's a deluxe there were only 3,000 made so that makes it 1% of production and then it's a 351C to boot. either way it's not a car you'll find at every burger joint.

 

There is numbers matching original and then there is original, both are worth more money and more collectible than modified cars. originality is like transmissions it's personal preference, my 2 cents is it's a rare enough car I wouldn't screw it up, if it's a deluxe it's a no brainer. but as I said it's personal preference, that just happens to be mine I'm not saying alterations are a crime.

[Jurisd 10]

I would argue that 351C convertibles are a dime a dozen.

 

S-Code, did you mean that 351W (or 302?) are dime a dozen? The Cleve didn't come in the '69, or, at least, not in mine. The timing of your comments is really good though. Here's why:

 

I received my father's day gift today - the Deluxe Marti report. The 'vert was originally a 302/C4 (both lost to eternity), and is listed as having only power steering as an option (apart from little stuff). But, the car I bought has A/C (including the controls, firewall connections and dash vents), power disc brakes, deluxe interior, speed control, and power top. Sooooo, at the risk of hijacking my own thread (can that be done?) I wanted to ask: Would that list of options all be dealer installed items? Because the original motor is gone, I'm missing the engine components of the A/C and speed control, but everything else is there and looks like it always has been. I know those options can all be retrofitted by an owner, but this stuff really looks original (in the same well-worn condition as the rest of the car, and its driver to boot.)

 

Bringing it back around a bit...when I saw how much else had already been pimped (improved from the grandma-esque as-sold condition), I don't feel quite as beholden to follow my brain (C6) as my heart (ripping through five speeds of fun). Sure, it's way more expensive, but money's only good if you don't die tomorrow, right?:tongue_smilie:

[Handegard 10]

1. I love driving a stick. Sticks are fun. That said, I don't want a stick in my daily driver, ever. I have a "fun car" with a stick, that I rarely drive, and everything else is a automatic. My '70 is a auto, and a daily driver, but my '69 will likely be a stick, just because it's "fun"

 

2. Sticks are "fun", but I wouldn't want to drive a dirtbike to work everyday, even though they are fun too. You've always had automatics it sounds like, I'd stick with the auto and focus on enjoying the car, not driving the car...

 

 

3. If you're going to all the trouble, might as well get the newer tranny. A period correct 4 speed would be wasted, because anyone who's knows the difference when you sell it, will likely be able to tell it wasn't original anyway...

 

 

4. I'd have to see your car ;) If it's completely stock, I'd say I'd rather have the auto when I buy it. That said, if it's detailed and has chrome goodies and go fast parts, etc, I'd think the stick would compliment the hot rod appeal...

[coz 108]

Correct - no 69 came with a 351C.... So it doesn't matter if it's a vert, coupe or FB. There is nothing special about a Cleveland engine, especially in a 69. Take it from me, I've been all over Clevelands, it's history, good points and bad. And while a decent engine for specific applications, it brings nothing to the table originality wise if it's sitting in a 69. A Cleveland in a non-Cleveland car is actually a negative if you want to be period correct. A period correct 302 would bring you more money if that's the way you want to go. Doesn't sound that way since most of your drivetrain is not period correct and you have no issues about that. And yes, Clevelands are a dime a dozen. You can get a bare block for around $200 all day long. Also, a Cleveland is a small block. To call them a BB or a mid size block is incorrect.

 

One thing you have not mentioned is if the Cleveland is 2V or 4V and what your rear gears are. If it's a 4V you will need a hefty stall (auto) or some serious gears (3.73 or taller) to get the full power band out of a 4V. Those heads are massive and need to really breath to get moving. My engine plays in the 3500-8000 rpm range so wimpy gears or small stall would not be welcome. That's why I run 3.90s out the back and the stronger TKO600 tranny.

 

If you have a 2V then you can get more low end HP/TQ rolling with say 3.55 gears and an rpm range more like 1500-6000.

Edited June 24, 2009 by coz

[S code 69 13]

I'm not going to argue with you because a Mopar guy more than a Ford guy and all my experience has been limited to the Ford FE and 385 series engines but I've seen 100 1969 mustangs with M code engines always called mid blocks. maybe you're right but what am I missing here? almost all of the cars for sale with an M code say they're Clevelands.

Edited June 24, 2009 by S code 69

[Jurisd 10]

I'm not going to argue with you...

 

Sorry if I came across as argumentative. I'm actually seeing it your way - the 351C is unusual, but that is a negative. Similarly, the C6 is unusual in that car - both could be attractive to some buyers, and a detractor to others. I suspect my 351C may have M heads, which makes it even worse. Then, to find out that a PO must have added a bunch of upgrades (all things that attracted me to this car, but evidently none of them factory correct)...

 

In sum, I think this car will have to be about enjoying it and making it my own. I'm looking at it from the perspective of what I would have done if I were still 17 and had this car (although I probably won't put quite as big of a sound system in it...).

 

I do appreciate everyone's inputs. They were all valuable, and helped me get my "philosophy" straight. Thanks.:tongue:

[PaleRider 12]

I'm going c4 with shift kit and B&M mega shifter that allows either shifting or auto. Although no clutch - I'm thinking this could be the best of best of both worlds.

[Pakrat 1,043]

It's all been said already so there doesn't seem to be much to add. I'm of the same feeling as most here, I like manuals in my toys if they are for cruising and I like auto's for daily drivers.

 

Anything listed on your Marti report would not be a dealer add on, that is how it came from the factory, doesn't sound like there was a lot special about this vert and since most of it is no longer original than taking the time to make it original again would be costly and only you can decide if it is worth it. To me it's a better candidate to modify and certainly better to do that then let it rot. Even if you just want to keep a somewhat original look you can add a 4speed style shifter handle and knob to a T5 making it look correct so there is very little reason to justify making such a drastic change over and then doing it with an antiquated part. The one rare option on your car is the speed control, not common and hard to find the parts to replace it. The switch which would be located above the radio near the power top switch is the hardest part to find and that may be your only part left it sounds like since the original engine is gone.

 

After reading thru this whole thread I have a few questions myself, what does morgafied mean? And can anyone post a link to the section of the JC Whitney catalog that sells T5 trannies? I'm still shopping for one and if they now make an aftermarket version that is cheaper than the late model version made for ford by Borg Warner and Co than I woudl like to take a look at it.

[coz 108]

Jurisd,

 

S code isn't arguing with you but with me and simply stated - he's wrong about the Cleveland as are most people when it comes to things they know little about. I'm certain he know way more about Mopars than I since I have little experience with them but we are on a Ford forum.....

 

Here is the Cleveland Wiki page and the 335 forum pages. If you want to know about Clevelands this is the place to go. There is more incorrect info out there on the Cleveland then there is correct info so this is the place to find the real info. These two sites are all Cleveland and IMO the de facto place to go for Cleveland knowledge.

 

http://351cleveland.wetpaint.com/

 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

 

First mistake is assuming just because an engine is in a car that they must have been sold that way. If that were the case then I guess Ford offered a Chevy 350 in their 1932 models since I've seen 100's of them with Chevy 350s. Simply stated there are no known examples of any 1969 Mustang regardless of style that ever came from a Ford plant with a 351C. Even Ford will tell you this - though some 1970 models came with Windsors before the Cleveland engine was ready.

 

Second mistake is assuming the M in 351M means mid block. It stands for Modified and was primarily created for the truck industry as the heads offered mega torque but sacrificed HP. These engines were commonly called the 351 stump puller. There is no such thing as a mid-block, at least not in the Ford arena.

 

Third mistake is assuming an engine can only come in one flavor. The Cleveland style engine came in many flavors - 2V, 4V, Aussie 302, the 400 and of course the M or Modifed version. The commom theme among them was the block and deck height (9.2).

 

Fourth mistake is assuming that an all original car will always out sell (bring more) than a modified car. My Mach was originally a 351W 2V, FMX auto with 3.00 open rear gears. Otherwise known as a low end grocery getting Mach. I doubt it would be worth half what it's worth now had I left it original. Not against original cars - I love them when they are well appointed and have some options sought after but even 40 years later a low end Mach is a low end Mach.

 

But back to the original question - C6 .v. manual. Most have stated a personal preference based on their past experiences and the type of driving they like. I think you should do the same and ask yourself "what do I desire?" followed quickly with "can I afford it and is it worth doing?" From what I understand going from auto to manual offers some challenges....

 

Can't help you with the desire or $$ questions but can state again that if you desire a manual seriously look at a 5speed as I originally had a 4 speed toploader and was really jonesing for a O/D gear when riding the highways. If you are looking to race the car (1/8 and 1/4 miles) then your best bet IMO is an automatic with a shift kit.

 

Regardless of what you decide, I know you will get enjoyment out of it and don't worry too much about originality since that bird flew away a while ago...

[S code 69 13]

Not to hijack the thread but to clear this up aren't the 351 clevelands the one people want? I thought the " M " engine code in the VIN was the 351 cleveland 4V and the best thing you could get short of a true big block FE.

 

From what I read on this now the 351C was a 1970 offering, so either this information is wrong or a whole lot of mustang owners don't know what they're talking about, I'm not disputing anyone I'm just trying to get the facts.

 

As far as the tranny swap goes it's clearly a personal preference issue as the responses suggest, it sounds to me like you're trying to see if someone can talk you out of a manual conversion so I think you know what you want. if you're like me you're not going to be happy until you get what you want even if you regret it in the end. do the conversion, if you don't like it there are plenty of people who will buy your kit from you so hang onto your C6 hardware incase you ever want to go back original.