408w-AL, Mass-Flo EFI ordered from TandL

[70vert 17]

Hey all,

Finally bit the bullet and got my dream engine ordered from TandL / T&L. Well, my crazy-but-not-insane dream engine. Dream engine would probably be a Roush 402IR-AL. I don't have the build sheet yet, just a build sheet from an original quote over a year ago, but they estimate about 500-525 with 9.0-9.5 compression to run lower octane gas for now and do a power adder if I ever go crazy later.

I have been impressed by their customer service in terms of response time to questions and accuracy of answers, and they're smart and well-spoken. They correctly pointed out that the March kit I planned to put on wasn't correct for 351w - the 30385 kit should be correct for 351w with alt, PS, standard rotation water pump.

Until I get a build sheet, I only have the older one to go on, but they would use a JE dished piston with 4.125 bore with 3.750 stroke for this.

Still need aluminum radiator with dual Spal fan, trunk battery relocation kit, fuel delivery system from Mass-Flo, Hedman 88300 headers, hydraulic clutch kit, (probably, 67efi has me convinced but one other with a cable clutch was able to do it without converting) air cleaner, pro-motorsports shock tower reinforcement kit, and Ron Morris adjustable motor mount.

Is Pro-Motorsports still in business, or where can you get their shock tower kit? The site has been down for at least a day.

I'll update this thread as things develop. Lead time is at least two months, but I was actually prepared for as long as a year, so I might actually have a beast by next spring!

My original 302 will sit in the garage as an engine rebuild project for me to learn a few things . . . or maybe an E-85 conversion?

Getting excited. I have everything I need to stop, shift, a 9"/TrueTrac rear, handle, and now I can finally get around to the "go" part of things. :rockon:

[stangme428 33]

sweet ride.... nice specs... cant wait to see how it goes... im finally building my dream motor too ... looking at a box full of parts from scat .. woo hoo.. :tongue_smilie:

[1BAD351 21]

sounds awesome, that's something like what I want to do with mine, but I won't be building that engine for a longgg time unfortunately. I hope it all works out well for you.

[70vert 17]

since I'm going with a little lower compression, it'll be 4.125 bore x 3.75 stroke, so it should rev a little better than the 408. I'll be able to use 87 octane gas and then do a power adder if I go nuts with it. :tongue_smilie: I'm still going to call it a 408, though, 'cause 400 sounds . . . boring. Like the 400M or the Pontiac 400, not really inspiring engines to most.

[JC69Stang 0]

What are the cam specs? It would be nice to compare them to my 408W

[70vert 17]

I asked for a build sheet but just got their generic one. I imagine it's their "custom grind cam shaft". They seem to hold their cards pretty close to their chest.

[JC69Stang 0]

Thats cool I guess. They should at least tell you what is inside your engine I would think. But secrets are not a bad thing either.

 

Here are my specs for your info.

 

408W with Scat froged internals.

AFR 205 Heads.

Hooker 1/34" Super Comps

Super Victor Intake

750 Holley HP

575 Intake, 595 Exhaust, 230 and 238 duration.

approximately 11.25:1 comp ratio.

 

This combo makes roughly 470 flywheel. 386 RWHP 358 RWTQ. The Dyno sheet is on my cardomain site. Click the link in my sig.It might pick up a few more ponies once it is broken in, also the rings are gapped a little wide to go with my future plans of adding 125 hp shot of Nitrous.

 

Keep us updated, I would like to see your results as well!

[70vert 17]

That's a beautiful car you've got there, and I like the attention to detail both in your photos and in the car - just went through the site. How does that monster hook up on the street? Any chassis twist from all the torque?

 

Not knowing the exact specs does detract a little from the bragging rights and the bench racing aspects, and there's a lot of fun in knowing exactly which parts contribute to exactly which performance improvements. I'll get that when I build up my original 302 after all this is done. Where that 302 ends up is anybody's guess. :shifty: Maybe I'll win the lottery and buy a Factory Five '33 Hot Rod or build up another car way down the road, but I'll be in no hurry and don't have the space for another car in the city anyway.

 

I can understand not revealing all your secrets, though - working for Apple, I can totally understand it. A magician doesn't tell you everything, the chef doesn't tell you everything, and if they have some proprietary secret sauce that makes their engines better, so be it. I've got a year warranty and if it blows up and I haven't been driving it at the absolute limit, it'll be all over 3 mustang forums online. :cursing: But I don't think I'll be pushing the limits , and the components could probably handle 2x the power.

[JC69Stang 0]

Well your ride should be a screamer when done.

Thanks for the compliments on mine! It is a long time comming to get it back on the road.

 

So far I am very pleased with the new motor. I have not really "fully" let it loose yet. There are still only a few hundred miles on it. Once I get it past the 500 mile mark, I will let it rip. It runs very nice though so far. And I think the ride and handling are greatly improved with the new wheels/tires combo.

And yea, subframe connectors are next on the list...

Plus the rear is 3.89:1. Not much fun on the highway but a blast on the streets!

Im looking into overdrive options now, the tranny is going to need to be replaced sometime soon. I would really love to see the new 5spd auto get adapted to our cars.......That would be sooooo nice!

[70vert 17]

Hey all,

I talked to the owner, Lloyd, early this week, and he was going to try to dyno my engine before the end of this week. He's going in for a medical leave for about 2 weeks but my engine should be next after that. It's already set up on the dyno, as you can see. In any case, I finally got the pic I've been requesting so I have something to look forward to. Here's the beast:

 

 

Can't wait to see the numbers and eventually, how it actually feels in the car in a couple (?) months. The (intolerable, anxiety-ridden) wait is somewhat justified by the fact that Lloyd himself is doing most of the work. You don't get where he is today by developing bad engine building habits, that's for sure.

I'll be updating with dyno numbers, install issues, etc., as everything gets done. I switched from Mass-Flo to FAST EZ-EFI along the way, as it's a simpler setup and tune and you get maybe 95% of the benefits of a well-set-up Mass-Flo system with it. Throttle response and low-end torque should be tire-shredding, with decent mpg . . . :biggrin:

[coz 108]

Well a picture should mean something but don't count on that engine being shipped anytime soon and hopefully not a grenade waiting to happen once you pull 4k plus. T&L and Lloyd have been taking a huge amount of heat on their builds for some time. Slow delivery (as you have witnessed), delivery dates missed, poor builds and poor performance. I have a buddy that really wanted to go with them but after dorking him around with promises and missed dates, he finally took them to court to get his money back. He gave them close to 5k to start the build two years ago and they never even started the project. They sent him pictures of his engine too..... you know - the phantom engine that never was built in the 1st place. Hopefully, this is not the case for you and you receive a well built engine.

 

Shame really that these guys are so uneven in their builds and delivery. Too late now probably but do some research on T&L. You'll find plenty of forums where their name is mud...

Edited January 19, 2010 by coz

[Stanger69 16]

T&L built my 408 stroker. Man all I can say is YOU WON'T BE DISSAPPOINTED. Good guys, not show offs. They know what they

are doing. The shop is right around the corner from me.

[70vert 17]

coz, I think all the flak they've gotten for their delivery and communication, if not outright lies about engine status, is warranted. I don't think their "name is mud" as far as the quality of the final product goes. Lloyd didn't stay in business by developing and passing on poor engine building skills. There is a lot of me-too, "oh, my engine builder is perfect, you shoulda gone with them" on those forums without a lot to back it up, and armchair quarterbacking. There are a lot of guys happy with their final engine from TandL, from Cobra to Mustang to Chevy guys, and the guy didn't build up an engine shop of that size and history by being a screwup and hiring yahoos. Maybe a yahoo slipped through the cracks and made a bad engine or two, but overall lots of guys chime in that they like their engines.

 

Should I have gone with a local builder? Maybe, as I started working with a local builder after my wait hit the year mark to rebuild my original 302 since I was tired of having my project on hold. I also could have been more patient, but I had every right to be pissed at a year wait.

 

I also have the benefit that, as the shop is short staffed right now, Lloyd is doing the final work on my engine and may well have done much of it. He also refused to ship me the engine as-is without a warranty and final tune and dyno. That says something. Again, he hasn't exactly developed bad engine building habits over the past 20 years or so of NASCAR, Cup, and custom stroker builds.

 

I hope he can turn around this customer service and delivery mess because I'm sure he can keep making great engines with the right staff.

[70vert 17]

Well, it looks like the beast finally lives. Just shy of 540hp with a carb baseline, now they're putting on the EZ-EFI and we'll see how it stacks up. I think I'll be pretty impressed with the engine, just a little older and wiser than I'd like to be. As best as I can figure, it should be a 375-400lb. long block, a good 130lbs. or more lighter than an original all-iron 351w long block from '69-70.

 

[70vert 17]

well, the OP FINALLY got his engine. I'm not going to dwell on the wait at this point - trying to let go of the past - but I do have the engine. My wait is finally over. The EZ-EFI had some issues at idle with the butterflies closing, and a replacement one is on the way that they will check out and ship back to me PROMPTLY (their emphasis) so I can place it on there.

 

One wild card I hadn't figured on was the Super Victor intake and the non-angled carb base. I'm going to need a drop base air cleaner - almost definitely an X-Stream - and maybe a small radius X-Stream at that. It's going to be a tight fit under the '70 hood.

 

The shop it's at now can weigh it and do the final dyno with the good EZ-EFI, so it will be interesting to see what the final weight and dyno numbers are.

 

 

 

[70vert 17]

well, the OP FINALLY got his engine. I'm not going to dwell on the wait at this point - trying to let go of the past - but I do have the engine. My wait is finally over. The EZ-EFI had some issues at idle with the butterflies closing, and a replacement one is on the way that they will check out and ship back to me PROMPTLY (their emphasis) so I can place it on there.

 

One wild card I hadn't figured on was the Super Victor intake and the non-angled carb base. I'm going to need a drop base air cleaner - almost definitely an X-Stream - and maybe a small radius X-Stream at that. It's going to be a tight fit under the '70 hood.

 

The shop it's at now can weigh it and do the final dyno with the good EZ-EFI, so it will be interesting to see what the final weight and dyno numbers are.

 

 

 

[70vert 17]

well, the OP FINALLY got his engine. I'm not going to dwell on the wait at this point - trying to let go of the past - but I do have the engine. My wait is finally over. The EZ-EFI had some issues at idle with the butterflies closing, and a replacement one is on the way that they will check out and ship back to me PROMPTLY (their emphasis) so I can place it on there.

 

One wild card I hadn't figured on was the Super Victor intake and the non-angled carb base. I'm going to need a drop base air cleaner - almost definitely an X-Stream - and maybe a small radius X-Stream at that. It's going to be a tight fit under the '70 hood.

 

The shop it's at now can weigh it and do the final dyno with the good EZ-EFI, so it will be interesting to see what the final weight and dyno numbers are.

 

 

 

[Moteaux 10]

Did you adjust the idle blade then reset the TPS? This is part of the set-up procedure in the EZ-EFI manual. Maybe you have and sorry to seem elementary, but after setting the handheld idle RPM then when the engine is started you have to use the manual adjuster to bring the idle adjustment where you want. Then you have to let it reset the TPS so it learns where the blades are. This may have all been done and it truly is a faulty unit or idle motor I believe. But just a thought to ask.

 

I have the World Products Typhoon manifold with the FAST system. I am running a 2.25 drop base with a 3" K&N and X-Streme top and if JUST fits. I didnt have to use that tall of a filter, but the measurements checked out where I could after I figure out that I could not run my originally planned oval air cleaner.

 

Best of luck.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Moteaux

[Moteaux 10]

Did you adjust the idle blade then reset the TPS? This is part of the set-up procedure in the EZ-EFI manual. Maybe you have and sorry to seem elementary, but after setting the handheld idle RPM then when the engine is started you have to use the manual adjuster to bring the idle adjustment where you want. Then you have to let it reset the TPS so it learns where the blades are. This may have all been done and it truly is a faulty unit or idle motor I believe. But just a thought to ask.

 

I have the World Products Typhoon manifold with the FAST system. I am running a 2.25 drop base with a 3" K&N and X-Streme top and if JUST fits. I didnt have to use that tall of a filter, but the measurements checked out where I could after I figure out that I could not run my originally planned oval air cleaner.

 

Best of luck.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Moteaux

[Moteaux 10]

Did you adjust the idle blade then reset the TPS? This is part of the set-up procedure in the EZ-EFI manual. Maybe you have and sorry to seem elementary, but after setting the handheld idle RPM then when the engine is started you have to use the manual adjuster to bring the idle adjustment where you want. Then you have to let it reset the TPS so it learns where the blades are. This may have all been done and it truly is a faulty unit or idle motor I believe. But just a thought to ask.

 

I have the World Products Typhoon manifold with the FAST system. I am running a 2.25 drop base with a 3" K&N and X-Streme top and if JUST fits. I didnt have to use that tall of a filter, but the measurements checked out where I could after I figure out that I could not run my originally planned oval air cleaner.

 

Best of luck.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Moteaux