Abs

[stangme428 33]

ok ... any interest in adapting ABS to our cars??!! it has been done with the FoxBody and factory5 kits. i believe with the talent that is on this site, someone could design a hub or adapter with a resonator, aka trigger wheel etc.. so we can adapt ABS to our cars...

 

i need another project like i need a hole in my head.. but.. it can be done! the ABS that is...

 

so... thoughts, comments, who wants to start the project??:stuart:

[LindenBruce 27]

While I recognize the benefits ABS offers to 98% of the driver's on the road, I am a trained driver and really prefer the old school 90% threshold braking into a corner and throttle out of. But it IS an intriguing idea. Hum..... Bruce

[danno 128]

It does sound like a great design project. I wonder how many of the people would be interested and at what price? The real advantages of ABS are in snow, rain, or a panic stop at high speeds. I am sure none of the owners here would ever drive in snow, and maybe only in rain if it cannot be avoided. That leaves a panic stop. Like Bruce, I have not had a panic stop or traffic ticket in 25 years; I am a cautious driver. All of us with cars this valuable probably do not drive them recklessly.

 

Maybe if you were to ask a polling question to everyone? Who would want ABS and how much would you pay for it if it was available as an add on kit? I would buy it if I could get it for $100, but everyone has a different price point. A lot of us want to spend money, whether needed or not.

 

So maybe ask who would be interested and at what price? $300, $600, $1000, more? That will help seperate the wheat from the chaf.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

While some may like the option of an abs system, If i wanted the new systems on my car I would buy a new one.

Sadly the art of driving is being lost with the addition of tech to cars.

Hell you don't even have to know how to park one anymore, It will do it for you.

 

Yes I'm old school but I like having the control over what my car does, Not some computer telling it what to do.

I learned a long time ago in competitive driving that if you have to use the brakes to avoid a problem, Its too late.

[Powershift 19]

I learned a long time ago in competitive driving that if you have to use the brakes to avoid a problem, Its too late.

 

TOO true. Car control skills have been replaced by too many electronic controls.

 

We also learned quickly in competitive driving that if you are turning the steering wheel more than 1/2 way to maintain control, the problem is in your RIGHT foot!

 

Also, never look at what you DONT want to hit. Look where you want to GO instead.

 

Some people also don't look ahead when driving, they look right in front of their car.

 

 

:thumbup:

[klevor 10]

Would that option count as a discount in our insurance premiums? I like driver control when driving vintage. I agree with powershift. We must watch where we're going and been.

[DRASTiK 22]

I know that I'd prefer ABS in any car my kids are driving. Then again, my stang isn't what they will be driving as teenagers. Nor will it be my daily driver.

[stangme428 33]

very interesting posts ...

 

 

being an electronics and IT geek, i love technology .... when it provides a needed solution to a common or not so common problem.... and yes it has to work! every time!

 

i never thought of ABS as a "benefit to 98% of drivers", (thanks LindenBruce) that changed the way i looked at it, asking myself what exact problem does it solve. to me, it solves the problem of the brakes in a continuous lock up by pulsing them elctro-mechanically based on electronic feedback ... that's it... nothing more.

 

i looked at ABS more as a assist for even the best drivers in every day usage, as well as a benefit for the non-daily drivers. I have never given much thought as to what causes the problem that it solves.. aka your right foot.. i always assumed that it was an emergency stop type of situation.

 

i think its time i take a driving class when the 69 is done... can we learn to drive better with this ABS tool? knowing how to drive with the added benefit of ABS and learning to control the situation even better?

 

deep thought for a Friday... watch this hold my beer... :rockon:

[Powershift 19]

In it's basics.... ABS doesn't make your car stop any better. It simply keeps your brakes from locking up in a panic stop, thus giving you the ability to steer your car around possible obstacles, rather than skidding uncontrollably into them. This is a GOOD thing for daily driven cars, especially for people with very little (or no) driver training.

 

In most performance applications (open track use) ABS can actually be a hinderance, as LindenBruce mentioned about threshold braking. The LAST thing you want when your hard on the brakes into a corner is the brake pedal effort changing. Yiiiikes!!!

 

Late model, wide, performance tires (which 90% of us modified Mustang guys love), have WAY more traction than the OEM tires on our 40+ year old cars. It's much harder to lock them up in a panic situation. So, taking advantage of this added traction, you can step up your braking system (bigger calipers and rotors, with better pads), and actually have the vehicle stop better than any factory original brake system.

[MustangChuck 16]

Bruce, I am not a trained driver. I am a monkey with a license. I am the 98%. :wink:

 

This is one of those mods that I have been looking to add to my Mustang.

 

Like the Fox guys, I would start with a 94/95 Mustang ABS system. The 94/95 (maybe up to 98 or 04) is a completely separate system and does not use the ECU for any of it's functions, thus making it easy to adapt. The control unit is also independent of the master cylinder, unlike many GM ABS applications.

 

My plans call on using the rear axle from a 94 GT, so I will already have the ABS rings and mounting points for the sensor there.

 

The front sensor mount would be included in my home-made disk brake brackets. Getting the distance correct will be challenging, as there is very little room for error.

 

The hardest part I have found so far is finding an ABS ring for the front spindles. I have been told that mid-90s Crown Vics, Towncars and Grand Marquises used a slip-on basket ring. I haven't had time to do junkyard research on this, though. That would be the easiest way to add the ring in the front. The front ring on the SN95 is much smaller than the diameter of the drum brake hub. I haven't checked yet to see if there is room between the back of the hub and the spindle to even clear the ABS ring. If there is, it may be possible to cut the ring off the SN95 hub and weld a bracket to it that will allow you to mount it to the back of the drum hub with the wheel studs (requiring removing and re-pressing the studs).

 

The rear ABS ring on the SN95 Mustang is pressed on to the axle. Attached is a blown-apart Ford diagram of where the ring sits.

 

M/C

 

PS: Sorry for the streaks on the scans. The rear ABS ring is part number 2C189 and can be seen at the lower, center of the first attachment.

 

PPS: The Ford engineering/part number for the rear axle ring is F4ZZ-2C189-A and was the same for all 94-04 V6s and GTs. I assume it was also the same for all 94-98 Cobras. I have attached a picture of it. It can be purchased online (June, 2012) for between $25 and $35 each. With a little more searching, they appear to be 4.5" rings with 49 teeth.

Edited June 5, 2012 by MustangChuck

[stangme428 33]

sounds good mustangchuck... ill keep my eye out for the crown vic parts etc ... i too would like ABS on my 69.... i plan on driving mine as much as possible..:punk:

[MustangChuck 16]

Ditto. I am rebuilding mine with long haul cruises in mind.

 

I am not sure which years of Crown Vic, etc had the baskets. I am assuming around the 93-96 range. Just after ABS was mandated (or strongly recommended). The front braking system changed on the Crown Vic in 98.

 

M/C

[MustangChuck 16]

Ok, a little update. The rear rings on an SN95 appear to be (according to the internet, not by physical inspection) 4.5" with 49 teeth. The front rings (gleamed by physical inspection) are 4" with 50 teeth. We would need a 50 tooth ring to make it work properly. The Crown Vic rear ring (Google for FORF880107) is 3.7" with 50 teeth. The diameter doesn't really matter because we are still getting 50 teeth passing the sensor per wheel rotation. We will just need to move the sensor closer to the center of the hub.

 

I have not yet seen pictures of the Crown Vic ring. I do not know if it is the basket ring, but at 3.7" in diameter, I doubt it.

 

I am including pictures of the SN95 (first two) and 1969 (last two) hubs, mostly for reference. The diameter of the bearing neck on the 1969 hub is 2.75".

 

The mounting plate will have a flat part (which will be mounted to the hub with the studs) and a small neck (about 5/8" tall to match the SN95 hub) to space it from the back of the hub.

 

Now, the tricky part will be to perfectly center the ring on the mounting plate. Any one have any suggestions?

 

Chuck

Edited June 6, 2012 by MustangChuck

[stangme428 33]

awesome info mustangchuck.... when i install my front brakes ill check out the hub and see how we can modify and create a mounting bracket for the sensor... :biggrin:

[stangme428 33]

here is the link to the Foxbody ABS install :clap:

[stangme428 33]

mustangchuck... i have not forgotten about this... just turned my hubs on a lathe.. so hope to get some measurements and compare to your findings...:clap:

[MustangChuck 16]

I haven't forgotten, either. I just haven't gotten into the garage to do anything in a while. Life has taken priority.

 

My brother (a general service mechanic) recently changed out the hub on a 97 Crown Vic and said that the exciter ring is very similar to how the SN95 ring is -- mounted to the hub and not a slip-on.

 

The Fox link you provided is nice, but the Fox guys have an advantage: They can use the hub/spindle setup from the SN95. A 94/95 spindle is a direct bolt-on replacement (correct geometry). The hub ist 5 lug vs the Fox's 4 lug.

 

Also, a 49 tooth ring should work. The ABS computer has a little give in the speed difference between front and rear tires. This is to accommodate different front and rear tires. If there are issues, they can always be resolved by making the diameter of the front tires smaller than the rear tires by 1-2%. On my 95GT, I have 235/45/17s (25.33" diameter) on the front and 275/40/17s (25.66" diameter) on the back. This works out to a 1.3% difference and I don't have any issues with my ABS. I believe that the tolerated difference is probably much greater.

 

M/C

[stangme428 33]

i hear ya on life....

 

thats great info on the 49 tooth ring... :clap:

[bnickel 10,004]

in the latest edition of Mopar Action October 2012 (was bored and browsing the magazine stand one day) i saw that they are working on a project adapting rear wheel ABS from some mid 90's dodge pickups and vans to muscle era project cars.

 

for our old cars we really would only truly need just the rear wheel ABS system as it only keeps the rear wheels from locking and therefore maintaining directional control of the vehicle, whereas more often than not on these old car if you lock up the rear brakes the car will more than likely spin. if the front brake lock the car will continue to go straight ahead. the whole article made complete sense to me and probably the coolest part of it was the either Moser or Strange already makes a tone ring for the Ford 9" to use on late model mustangs where the 8.8 is swapped out for a 9".

 

another cool thing was that the control unit is not made my mopar it's actually a kelsey hayes unit and it was marketed too basically all the OE manufacturers during the time, i guess only Mopar bought it though, so the system is basically a universal fit system already and it does NOT use a big ECU under the dash or the hood just a control valve only slightly larger than your stock brake proportioning valve. what's so cool about this system is that it's very, very simple, compact and basically already a universal fit system all you need is the tone ring for the 9" and a used control valve from a mid 90's dodge dakota or something.

 

I'm definitely going to add this to my growing list of upgrades i want to do to the 69 cougar!!!

[stangme428 33]

Bnickel .. Great info I'll check it out..:biggrin:

[MustangChuck 16]

bnickle, thanks for the info on the Mopar Action article! I will try to find it.

 

I plan to use the 8.8" out of a 94 Mustang GT to replace my current axle. That already has tone rings on it. The 94's ABS unit is completely self contained, but it does use a large hydraulic control unit (which, on the 94, is located on the passenger's side, front of the engine bay).

 

M/C

[stangme428 33]

bnickel -- i checked out the Mopar article, very interesting on how they place the ring inside the housing and the sensor mounted in a hole in the "pumpkin" .... I'm not sure i would go that route.. but very interesting... im still educating myself on the different methods... and how to adapt to the 9" and front hubs on our cars... also an ineresting argument on only appying ABS to the rear instead of all 4 wheels..

 

cool stuff on the 94 setup mustang chuck ....

[bnickel 10,004]

bnickel -- i checked out the Mopar article, very interesting on how they place the ring inside the housing and the sensor mounted in a hole in the "pumpkin" .... I'm not sure i would go that route.. but very interesting... im still educating myself on the different methods... and how to adapt to the 9" and front hubs on our cars... also an ineresting argument on only appying ABS to the rear instead of all 4 wheels..

 

cool stuff on the 94 setup mustang chuck ....

 

 

i think the coolest thing about doing the swap on a 9' is that Moser (or was it Strange?) already makes a conversion for it, i'm assuming for later model mustang retro-fit apps and the tone ring has the same number of teeth as the mopar piece so it's an relatively straight forward and simple swap for a 9"