69 Mach 1 use a 360 from a truck?

[mach-1-69-rob 10]

I have a 360 FE engine with auto transmission, from a mid 1970's Ford truck. Any concerns with putting this into my 69 Mach 1? Thanks for your help.

[82stangracer 10]

A 360 uses a 352 block just like a 390. So you should be able to just buy your parts for a 390 application and bolt it right up.

[bigperm2 10]

Is your car an original S-code? It could physically bolt in by interchanging 390 mustang "stuff", but there are a few problems. one of which, truck heads don't have the holes drilled in the right configuration for the mustang exhaust manifolds or headers. I am not 100% sure, but I believe truck c6's have a longer tail shaft than car C6s. If your car is not an original FE powered car, the shock towers are not reinforced etc.

 

Another thing to mention, is a stock 360 is a dog of a motor. It is a destroked, low compression 390, not to mention it weighs a ton. It might have acceptable pulling power for a truck, but it really would be a lousy car engine in stock form. You could build it into a 390, or use the block and buy a stroker kit for a 390, but this would not be a good bang-for-the-buck build.

[maxum96 32]

I wouldn't do it for the same reason bigperm2 said. In fact, I don't even advocate most people using a 390 or 428 unless they have an S-code or CobraJet Mustang or want the vintage look of an FE engine. Engine technology is far ahead today of what it was in the 60's and a 351 Windsor can be made to out run virtually any FE due to it's antiquated design.

[Max Power 74]

I wouldn't do it for the same reason bigperm2 said. In fact, I don't even advocate most people using a 390 or 428 unless they have an S-code or CobraJet Mustang or want the vintage look of an FE engine. Engine technology is far ahead today of what it was in the 60's and a 351 Windsor can be made to out run virtually any FE due to it's antiquated design.

 

There making pretty cool parts for FEs these days. Technology isn't exclusive to windsors.

[maxum96 32]

There making pretty cool parts for FEs these days. Technology isn't exclusive to windsors.

 

 

That may be true on the cool parts for FE's, but it's a design from the 50's and there are limits due to it's architecture. Even with aluminum heads and intakes, they're very heavy due to their full skirt design. There are other limitations. A 427 Windsor would put out just as much HP, if not more, than a 427 FE. And it would would weigh substantially less.

[Grabber70Mach 107]

FE = Frickin' Expensive

[Max Power 74]

That may be true on the cool parts for FE's, but it's a design from the 50's and there are limits due to it's architecture. Even with aluminum heads and intakes, they're very heavy due to their full skirt design. There are other limitations. A 427 Windsor would put out just as much HP, if not more, than a 427 FE. And it would would weigh substantially less.

 

 

You have been able to get aluminum blocks for FEs for 30 years.

 

While it costs more (what that is unique doesn't), you can do a lot of stuff with FEs:

 

http://www.survivalmotorsports.com/EngineBuilds.html

 

While an FE weighs 100lbs more than a windsor, it's still 100 lbs less than the 429/460 family:

 

http://www.raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/engine.html

[maxum96 32]

You have been able to get aluminum blocks for FEs for 30 years.

 

While it costs more (what that is unique doesn't), you can do a lot of stuff with FEs:

 

 

 

Major $$$$$$$$$$$ for an FE aluminum block. If money is not an object, you can build a really hot FE. But who among us has that kind of coin? For a lot less money I can build a stroker 460 (600 cubic inch range) That would put that FE to shame. I have a 550-600hp (estimated) stroker Windsor. To build a FE that would be able to beat my motor would cost roughly twice as much as was spent on my Windsor and would still weigh 100 lbs more.

 

There's a reason Ford quit making FE's in the early 70's, they're outdated. The 429/460 had replaced it. The reason we didn't see the factory hotrod parts for the 429/460 (the exception was the Boss 429 engine. A 429 block with aluminum semi-hemi heads) like we did for the FE's was due to Ford ending it's funding of racing in 1970. Ford took it's racing money and put it into emissions research. There used to be far more aftermarket parts for FE's than 429/460's. So up until about 15-20 years ago if you wanted a flying Ford big block you built an FE.

 

That has changed now. The 429/460 engine cores are plentiful. You can still buy new 460 blocks from Ford Racing, including one with siamese bores allowing up to 605 ci. Yes there is an FE aftermarket block out there. But twice the cost of the 460 Ford Racing block and a max of 500ci. Original 390 blocks are getting a little tough to find. 428's are even harder to find. And you can just about forget finding 427's anymore. If you find one, you're gonna pay a fortune for it. I remember Jay Bittle (founder and owner of JBA performance) 'buying some old marine engines in the late 1980's because they were built out of 427 blocks. They were rare then.

 

Except for super stock drag racing classes that require vintage cars to run original engines, where are FE's used in competition anymore? Nowhere. Up until just a couple of years ago, Nascar used Windsor blocks with Cleveland style heads. Drag racers running big blocks used 460's.

 

I think FE's look cool with pent roof valve covers. FE's look great in GT-500's, Cobra roadsters, and CJ Mustangs. But other than that, they're dinosaurs. So if I'm building an engine for power, why would I want to spend twice as much for an engine that makes less hp than a 460 would?

[02Lightning 10]

I like my FE but it's true.

[Max Power 74]

I didn't say they were cheapest. I didn't say they were the most practical or easiest.

 

I just stated that the same technology that is being made available for windsors is also now available for FEs.

 

I stand by that statement. You are making common sense justifications that make sense to you. That's great for you. Thank goodness some people like to be different. It makes car shows more interesting.

[maxum96 32]

Thank goodness some people like to be different. It makes car shows more interesting.

 

So very true! No offense taken here. I do enjoy a good debate.

[LSG 15]

Maxum, you need to check your information sources. You have been badly misled. It is the windsor that can't compete with the FE. One of the car mags did a fun buildup of a 427 windsor, and an old 390. The 390 was treated to a .060 overbore and a 410 Mercury crank, giving 422 inches. Both engines had performer RPM heads, intakes, and cams. Th 'old' FE out powered and out torqued the baby engine all the way across the rev range.

One has to keep in mind that the FE came out in '58, and the baby windsor in '60. Doesn't seem to me that the windsor is that much newer.

The reason Ford stopped selling the FE was marketing. Thats the reason lots of things happen. Look at how the manufacturers sell V10s now.....can the new V10 from Ford or Dodge do anything the old 460 or 440 can't already do ? No, but the old V8s aren't NEW ! NEW is good for advertizing, and you can charge a higher price for it. It had absolutely zero to do with being obsolete.

 

And the idea that the FE is more exspensive is nuts. I bought my last 390 for 250$, I bought a running 360 for 20$, the guy was installing a windsor. Aftermarket block are costly no matter what. I don't think a Dart or FRPP block is any cheaper than a Genesis FE block. Same for cranks. If you are find cheap parts somewhere, for anything, I w3ant to know where.

 

So I am all for FEs in 'stangs. That said, the 360 is a poor choice. Yes, it will fit just fine. But the truck FEs, the 360 especially, has assembled height problems. You also need FE mustang exhaust manifolds, or headers, so the cost goes up. The truck manifolds don't fit well in the car at all. If an old 360 is going into a car, I would suggest headers, and a 390 crank, at least. Be careful selecting pistons. 390 car pistons are becoming tougher to find these days, and the truck pistons is what gives you the bad assembled height. Yes, you can do it. But think it out first. With some forethought and a careful selection of parts, you can show those windsor boys nuthin' but taillights. LSG

Edited October 18, 2010 by LSG
spelling, fat fingers

[maxum96 32]

One has to keep in mind that the FE came out in '58, and the baby windsor in '60. Doesn't seem to me that the windsor is that much newer.

 

Check again, it was 1962 that the Windsor debut as a 221. While that might only be a 4 year difference, the FE was not a ground breaking design. It was not very different than the Y-block or MEL engines. The Windsor was ground breaking for a variety of reasons. Some of them were it's lightweight, thin wall casting design, and small external size. The FE lasted in cars for 12 years. The Windsor lasted 34 years installed in new cars. 302's and 351W's are still available from Ford over the counter. Why was the Windsor around so much longer? More modern design.

 

The reason Ford stopped selling the FE was marketing. Thats the reason lots of things happen. Look at how the manufacturers sell V10s now.....can the new V10 from Ford or Dodge do anything the old 460 or 440 can't already do ? No, but the old V8s aren't NEW ! NEW is good for advertizing, and you can charge a higher price for it. It had absolutely zero to do with being obsolete.

 

So Ford put all the hundreds of millions of dollars into engineering a new engine (that's right, it cost that much to design and build a new engine and bring it to market) just so they could advertise they had a new engine? Talk to any exec or engineer working for a car company. They're gonna tell you that they do anything to save a buck. Read Lee Iaccoca's book. He talks many times about cost saving things they did while working at Ford in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Same when he ran Chrysler.

 

When Ford needed a new intermediate engine for large cars and pickups in the mid 70's they didn't design a new engine from scratch. They took what parts they had on the shelf and built the 351M and 400M. Very few new parts had to be cast for those engines. How about the 428CJ? That was built from all off the shelf parts. Mustang Monthly just had a nice article about Bob Tasca and how he had his guys build the FE prototype that Ford copied and marketed as the 428CJ.

 

It had everything to do with being obsolete. In the 60's racing was huge. Ford had it's Total Performance program going. When Chevy brought out their modern big block for NASCAR, Ford cried foul. They knew the FE didn't stand a chance against it. Bill France forced Chevy to sell Ford one of their new engines. And Ford copied a lot of that engine. Why do you think big block Chevy heads and 429/460 heads look so much alike? Read the bottom of the page on this link.

http://reviews.ebay.com/Ford-V-8-Engine-Families-A-Primer_W0QQugidZ10000000004021551

 

The reason the 460 and 440 went the way of the Dodo bird is emissions and CAFE. Both the V-10's emit less emissions and have better fuel economy (both V-10 are still gas hungry). Both 460 and 440 are obsolete compared to Ford and Chrysler V-10 engines.

 

 

And the idea that the FE is more exspensive is nuts. I bought my last 390 for 250$, I bought a running 360 for 20$, the guy was installing a windsor. Aftermarket block are costly no matter what. I don't think a Dart or FRPP block is any cheaper than a Genesis FE block. Same for cranks. If you are find cheap parts somewhere, for anything, I w3ant to know where.

 

If you got a 390 lately for $250, that's a score. 360 engines, they're a dime a dozen. But who wants them? It's a low compression truck motor with heads that are useless for the most part in a Mustang. I'm surprised you didn't get paid $20 to get rid of it for the seller. I got a guy down the street that'll sell me a 427 side oiler with tunnel port heads for $50. There are tons of 302 cores around for $200-$400 Does that mean FE's are cheap? No. It just means I'm probably going to make a hell of a score on an FE engine. A good comparison is new parts. A new FE block is twice the price of Ford Racing 460 block with siamese bores and can go to 605ci. How about aluminum head prices? FE aluminum heads are twice the price of a aluminum 460 head, and they're fewer to choose from. So forth and so on.

 

So a comparison of one stroker 351W against a stroker 390 showed the 390 put out more hp and torque. That was one engine of both makes. The Edelbrock Performer RPM heads are a emissions legal head for primarily street cars that is only good up to 6500 rpm (per Edlelbrock's website). For a 427 cubic inch Windsor, that's a very small head. A 390 is all about torque and not likely to be spun above 6000rpm. A 351Windsor is going to be able to spin much higher RPM more easily. Put a set of heads like mine (AFR 205) on a Windsor and your gonna outflow those 390 heads. Show me where FE's consistently whip the other Ford engines of similar displacement. It's not going to happen.

 

I'll be happy to stack my 393W against any similar built 390 FE. 11.5:1 compression with a .621 lift solid roller cam with a single quad carb, runs on 91 octane, and no power adder. No exotic parts in my engine. I haven't had it on a dyno yet, but multiple sources show it should be around 550hp-600hp. My engine builder (who specializes in Ford high performance engines for the last 25 years) has built similar 393W and sees 600+hp. A 390 with the best aluminum heads around is not going to beat that. And you still have to lug 100lbs more of weight and it's on the front of the car. So you're gonna hurt traction and handling. You might get the torque around what mine does, but not the HP. And unless we're racing pickups, HP is going to win.

Edited October 19, 2010 by maxum96

[mach-1-69-rob 10]

Thanks everyone for your experience and advice. I do not have a large budget, so I may opt for a 351W or even a 302 to save money in the long run. Even though I already own the 360 with tranny, I may end up spending more money on it eventually. Unless I can literally drop it in the Stang without having to buy anything else, which I doubt would be so easy.

 

Anyone want to buy a 360 with tranny? LOL

[bigperm2 10]

mach-rob, what engine do you currently have in the car? I actually am a big fan of FE engines. I have in storage a never bored 390 that I would love to put in something someday. But a 302 will probably be the cheapest and easiest build you can possibly do. Look for later model roller cam motors.

 

Save the 360, unless is is bored 0.060, or you don't have the space. Its a destroked 390 (390 block, 352 crank) survival sells affordable rotating assemblies that will make a 390 or 410 out of it. If you feel the need someday, you could build it if you want.

[Max Power 74]

 

It had everything to do with being obsolete. In the 60's racing was huge. Ford had it's Total Performance program going. When Chevy brought out their modern big block for NASCAR, Ford cried foul. They knew the FE didn't stand a chance against it.

 

That same engine from Ford won Lemans two years running against some of the most sophisticated engine designs in the world. They also could have homologated the 427 cammer, which put out numbers that easily competed with the Chevy big block.

 

Besides, the Chevy was a newer design by about 8 years. Of course progress was made.

 

We all know bang for the buck windsors are cheaper. They are like lego motors anymore, just buy the parts and assemble. No real challenge in that. Just like Gen I Chevies.

 

And 500hp vs 600hp on the street? Who cares? You can't really use it, and most people don't have traction enough for either. It becomes a swingin dick contest at the dyno shop.

 

Tell me: You see a T-Bucket at a car show with a small block Chevy in it, and you see one next to it with a Desoto Hemi. Which car do you go to check out first?

 

THAT'S why people build FEs. Not because their dyno shop or accountant told them to.

[maxum96 32]

That same engine from Ford won Lemans two years running against some of the most sophisticated engine designs in the world. They also could have homologated the 427 cammer, which put out numbers that easily competed with the Chevy big block.

 

Besides, the Chevy was a newer design by about 8 years. Of course progress was made.

 

We all know bang for the buck windsors are cheaper. They are like lego motors anymore, just buy the parts and assemble. No real challenge in that. Just like Gen I Chevies.

 

And 500hp vs 600hp on the street? Who cares? You can't really use it, and most people don't have traction enough for either. It becomes a swingin dick contest at the dyno shop.

 

Tell me: You see a T-Bucket at a car show with a small block Chevy in it, and you see one next to it with a Desoto Hemi. Which car do you go to check out first?

 

THAT'S why people build FEs. Not because their dyno shop or accountant told them to.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Ford's late 60's Le Man's effort. But Ford way outspent everyone else including Ferrari (aka Total Performance). The Ford engines were roughly twice as large as the Ferrari. The Ferrari was a more advanced engine. So not exactly a fair comparison with the FE.

 

Part of making power is putting it to the pavement. Hence the use of traction devices and sticky tires. Can I launch my car on the street at 5000 rpm? Just gonna be one smokey burnout. But once I'm in second gear I can ease into full throttle. Put drag slick on at the track and I've got a fun weekend warrior. So 600hp is not useless on the street. Nelson Engines has 1500hp turbo cars on the street.

 

427 holmogated? Ford was going to. But NASCAR banned it before they could use it. That's why the 427 cammer was only seen in drag racing.

 

I never said I didn't think FE's had their place. Read my earlier post where I said they had their place. Regardless, they are an obsolete design that are expensive to build and are easily out horsepowered by other Ford engines.

Edited October 20, 2010 by maxum96

[mach-1-69-rob 10]

I have no engine in the car right now. When I purchased the car, it came with a broken down 351W in the trunk. The car is an S-code, though I am not planning to (i.e. don't have the budget to) make it original, and never intend to race it. But I just want a decent carbureted Ford V8 that runs and sounds good.

[maxum96 32]

For cost, I'd do a 351W. If you want it to look original, I'd go with a 390 or 428. An FE in a S code car will bring the value up a bit from what it would be with a 351W.

[bigperm2 10]

Maxum is probably correct in saying the 351w will be cheaper. But you might be able to build this and not break the bank. Since you have an S-code, My opinion is to check out what you have. With a 390, you will have a fun car to drive.

 

building a 360 might be OK, but it is common to stroke to a 390. I don't think the 360 gets any better mileage than a 390 and you will probably have a better selection of pistons to choose from.

 

First, are you 100% sure you have a 360? I don't believe there are any casting #s that will differentiate a 360 or 390. The only way to know 100% is with a teardown. Maybe you will get lucky and find you have a 390. You could find that the block is trashed, and you are back to square one, and then it is really out of your budget to build the FE!?!?!

 

If you find that you have a 360, it can be made into a 390. You will have to find a 390 crank, rods (actually you can use the 360 "long rod", but you will really have to do your homework with the compression height on the piston) a 390 crank and rods shouldn't be too expensive or hard to find. The other chalange will be the heads. The truck heads (D2TE-AA) flow as well as the GT heads (C8AE-H). They just have the wrong exhaust bolt pattern. I don't see why a machine shop couldn't drill and tap the heads for the correct pattern if you went with the stock heads.

 

The big thing, budget in an aluminum intake manifold. This alone saves 70 lbs. off the front of your car. Let us know what you find!!

[Max Power 74]

If I had a factory S code car, I would never put a windsor in it. 390 engines are not that pricey.

[jholmes217 65]

I agree with Max Power and bigperm2. If it is an S code, put a 390 back in it. It shouldn't be that hard to find one, and you could probably find a numbers matching one without too much trouble or money. It's already set up for a big block, and may actually be cheaper to go with a 390 than switch everything over to small block (motor mounts, tranny mounts, linkage, etc. and also might mean radiator, shroud, hoses, etc.) If you decide to sell later down the road, you'll be glad you did too.

 

As far as the rest of the discussion, very interesting points of view. I've had 5 classic Mustangs over the years (65, 66, 67, and 68 coupes, and now I have a 69 fastback.) All have been small block cars and I loved them. However, I am about to buy a 69 Q Code Mach 1 because my dream car has always been a Cobra Jet Mach 1, but either couldn't afford one, or was in the wrong location due to a military career (Germany, Panama, Cuba, Iraq, etc.) Now, after 3 war on terror deployments, I am retired from the military and teaching at a high school. I finally have the funds and should have the purchase done by the end of the week. Why am I doing this when I have a very strong running 69 fastback with a Bliss Performance 306 (bored 69 302 with 70 351W heads) under the hood? Because my dream car has always had a 428 emblem on the hood and the air cleaner and my wife will support my getting my dream car, but not keeping both 69 Stangs. So, in my house, it's out with the small block and in with the FE. Just my two cents worth.

Edited December 23, 2010 by jholmes217

[maxum96 32]

I am about to buy a 69 Q Code Mach 1 because my dream car has always been a Cobra Jet Mach 1

 

 

That is awesome. Even though economically it doesn't make sense, nor is it easy, to build an FE these days, I'd love to have a CJ car. I could have bought a Q code 69 Cougar driver that was totally complete back in the late 80's for around $3,000. Man do I kick myself nowadays over that one.

Edited October 21, 2010 by maxum96

[jholmes217 65]

I'm pretty excited about it! My original plan was to drive the 69 fastback with the 306 while building a 427 stroker Windsor, and make the fastback a 428 Cobra Jet Mach 1 clone. It has come to the point in this case where it is cheaper to buy the real thing than build a clone believe it or not. Plus, I don't have to build a FE in this case. It has less than 2500 miles on the rebuild! I do agree with you that it is cheaper and easier to build a Windsor, but this is just too good to pass up!