~ 1969 looking for 428 CJ pistons .020 over

[Raven R code 281]

Help! My block has 2 cylinders that wore weird. Now it's recommended that it gets punched out and new pistons. First choice is to locate .020 over, if not, then we jump to .030.

 

If anyone can help locating pistons, please let me know.

 

Dave

[1969_Mach1 333]

Pistons shouldn't be hard to find.  Summit Racing, or Jegs would be my first place to look.  Do you want a stock replacement piston or something a little better?  Sealed Power or Speed Pro are a safe OEM replacement piston.  Personally, I'd avoid the Kieth Black pistons.  I think your engine builder should easily be able to get pistons with one phone call to his supplier.

 

Since it now needs boring.  Some engine builder go cheap and hone the cylinders on their power hone machine until the cylinders are bored to the correct size.  Others at minimum do this.  (1) Resurface the block decks using a fixture that squares the block at the same time.  Now the deck surfaces are at correct angles and parallel to the crank centerline.  (2)  Bore the block within a few thousandths of the final size using the deck surface to locate the boring bar.  Now the cylinders are perpendicular to the deck and crank centerline.  (3) Power hone to the final bore size with a torque plate attached to the deck surfaces.  The torque plate mimics the cylinder head and any distortion the cylinder head creates on the cylinders from the pull of the head bolts.  It's best when torque plate honing to use the head bolts or head studs that will be installed on the engine. 

[jholmes217 65]

Call Barry at Survival Motorsports.  All he does is FE engines.  http://survivalmotorsports.com/

[LindenBruce 27]

.020 over should not be a problem.  I have .030 over in mine.  I also have Barry's book and I suggest you buy it if you can.  Very good info.  B.

[Raven R code 281]

.020 over should not be a problem.  I have .030 over in mine.  I also have Barry's book and I suggest you buy it if you can.  Very good info.  B.

Thanks for the tip.

 

Is that a picture of your block?is that a felpro gasket sitting on it? Not to scare you but my FE specialist said that felpro gaskets are the worst for FE motors. Apparently the same gasket failed miserably on my block. He uses nothing but victor reinz gaskets. Just passing along the info.

[LindenBruce 27]

Yes that is my block.  I have never had a problem with FelPro.  BUT, I have had problems with Victor.  My blocks deck and heads were both milled flat.  And I have new ARP bolts as well. So I should not have any problems.  Thanks for the heads up by the way.  B.

[Raven R code 281]

Good to hear! What issues did you have with the victor gaskets? I will say my felpro intake gaskets were disintegrated and a lot of the remnants were sitting on that tray just below the intake manifold. Keep in mind that my car sat from 1995 until 2013. The long hibernation may have had something to do with it.

 

Dave

[Raven R code 281]

Pistons shouldn't be hard to find.  Summit Racing, or Jegs would be my first place to look.  Do you want a stock replacement piston or something a little better?  Sealed Power or Speed Pro are a safe OEM replacement piston.  Personally, I'd avoid the Kieth Black pistons.  I think your engine builder should easily be able to get pistons with one phone call to his supplier.

 

Since it now needs boring.  Some engine builder go cheap and hone the cylinders on their power hone machine until the cylinders are bored to the correct size.  Others at minimum do this.  (1) Resurface the block decks using a fixture that squares the block at the same time.  Now the deck surfaces are at correct angles and parallel to the crank centerline.  (2)  Bore the block within a few thousandths of the final size using the deck surface to locate the boring bar.  Now the cylinders are perpendicular to the deck and crank centerline.  (3) Power hone to the final bore size with a torque plate attached to the deck surfaces.  The torque plate mimics the cylinder head and any distortion the cylinder head creates on the cylinders from the pull of the head bolts.  It's best when torque plate honing to use the head bolts or head studs that will be installed on the engine.

 

My FE suggested doing everything you just mentioned. He has the proper equipment too along with using the torque plate in place of the heads.

 

Good to know someone else has this knowledge. Thanks!

[1969_Mach1 333]

It might be worth a call to Fel Pro to get a suggestion on head gaskets.  They helped me on my 351W with the stock 10.7:1 CR.  In a nutshell they told me todays stock replacement head gasket for my motor was not the best choice with that compression ratio and gave me a part number for one better suited,  Still a Perma Torque gasket.  They also told me one of their performance gaskets would work.  But those are not Perma Torque and recommend a retorque after one heat cycle and are also not intended for long term use.  The performance gaskets are best suited for engines that will be disassembled frequently   

[jmlay 80]

The felpro print o seal intake gaskets intake gaskets are well know to be problematic on the fe. Short of the intake felpro is a fine gasket.

[LindenBruce 27]

I have seen Victors fail between cylinders on more than one engine or different manufactures.  So I have always stuck with Fel Pro and never had a problem.  These head gaskets are not the printo seal design.  B.

[Ash 145]

Help! My block has 2 cylinders that wore weird.

 

 

 

Was it the rear two cylinders, Dave?

 

They were the two that failed in my 428CJ too. Bad oil hole alignment on the crank.

[1969_Mach1 333]

The felpro print o seal intake gaskets intake gaskets are well know to be problematic on the fe. Short of the intake felpro is a fine gasket.

What do you mean by fail? On other motors I have seen the Fel Pro Performance intake gaskets break down around the water passages after a few years.  Also, the end seals should not be installed and a bead of silicone used instead.  This is most important with aftermarket aluminum intake manifolds.  The end seals can prevent the intake from sitting down correctly on the cylinder heads then gaskets will leak.  Lastly, steel core Fel Pro Performance intake gaskets are also available which might work better.

 

Edit.  I wanted to add, instructions that come with aftermarket intakes say to glue the intake gaskets to the cylinder heads so they don't move.  I use to think that was ridiculous.  But now I glue them to the cylinder heads around each intake port and use a thin film of silicone sealer around each water passage.

 

I don't know if this is needed or not.  But, after I install the intake I only torque the bolts to about 1/2 of the final value to seat everything together, let it sit for a couple hours so the silicone end seals will firm up a little.  Then do a final torque.  So far it seems to work.  But, like I mentioned, I don't know if it is necessary.

[LindenBruce 27]

The Victor head gaskets I have had fail were on different engines.  So we stopped using then and stuck strictly to Fel Pro.  But that was decades ago.  Victor's may have improved since then.  

 

Since I am running the aluminum PI intake, I too put a light film of silicone around the front water ports.  I also use nothing but silicone for the front and back center seals.  I have never had an issue with leaks using this method.  B.  

[Raven R code 281]

Was it the rear two cylinders, Dave?

 

They were the two that failed in my 428CJ too. Bad oil hole alignment on the crank.

Yes they were! The updated oiling system should fix that .....I hope!

[Raven R code 281]

So far....can only find .020 over pistons from Keith Black. Not sure how good these are.

 

Haven't heard back from survival Motorsports yet.

[LindenBruce 27]

KB are good pistons. Barry might take a few days based on his schedule.  He WILL get back to you eventually.   B.

[1969_Mach1 333]

One thing about KB pistons is they move the top ring land up closer to the top of the piston.  Per their instructions, since the top ring will operate at higher temps you need to increase the ring end gap.  The required ring end gap is fairly significant.  I used KB pistons on one motor.  If bothered me filing material off of new piston rings to obtain the ring end gap they want.  For that reason I haven't used KB pistons anymore.  That's just my preference. 

[Raven R code 281]

If anyone happens to have or know anyone with .020 over pistons just laying around....please let me know.

 

Would. be interested

[1969_Mach1 333]

A couple of things thing to keep in mind is (1) lower cost pistons are heavier than higher cost pistons and (2) forged pistons will tolerate more detonation (pinging) than hypereutectic alloy pistons.  Heavier pistons, thus heavier rotating assembly, slows down the acceleration rate of the crankshaft.  However, many forged pistons use the narrower of the two ring widths.  I think the thought is the narrower ring width reduces friction between the rings and cylinder walls.  But it increases the potential for oil consumption.  I think I would look for something mid range like a Sealed Power forged piston.  They are better than a stock cast piston or a hypereutectic alloy (also cast) piston and still use the wider rings.

[jmlay 80]

.020 over pistons will be a custom order. Barry frequents fordfe.com and fepower.net. He also has his own forum at fefordtech.com. I would suggest posting on one of those forums as well.