Build help

[barnett468 418]

I'm surprised by this. I've had my Crane HI-6 for about 8-9 years now.. always thought it was multispark over the entire register. LOL, learn something every day. Well, it does work great over 3000 rpm too..

 

I guess that's really the bottom line . I have had many high perf cars with the old analog MSD units and they ran fine and the plugs didn't load up, so  I suppose from my experience, multi spark over 3000 rpm isn't "needed".

 

This also makes me wonder what the Nascar guys use since they rev to 10,000 rpm.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

wonder what the Nascar guys use since they rev to 10,000 rpm.

hmmm....not your father's Oldsmobile!

[Mach1 Driver 560]

OK lets talk about quench/squish. Its the distance between the top of the piston and the head in the flat area surrounding the combustion chamber. Barnett likes .035 to .042. Some forums say .040 to .045 and from one paper by an engine designer he said .040 was the sweet spot.

I've been looking into the stroker kits and like the Eagle 14129. I want to keep the compression close to 10.0:1 so I'm looking at their dished pistons. At eaglerod.com they have a neat compression calculator. If I enter the data it looks like this for 351w/408:

deck height           9.500

bore                      4.030

stroke                    4.000

rod length              6.250

chamber vol cc      58

gasket thickness    0.066

piston dome vol cc -20

pin height               1.245

compression          10.01:1

deck clearance       0.005

 

if you add the deck clearance and the gasket thickness you get 0.071 quench. I can get the quench down to 0.045" but the compression goes up to 10.57:1. I guess my question is- how important is quench, especially since I'm using dished top pistons? You just about need custom pistons to hit this number and get the compression you want.

[sixt9stang 36]

That Crane Optical Distributor is tough to find.  They don't even list them under products on their website.  Can find some of them on Jeg's but that is about it.

 

Edit: A lot of good info in this thread though and making me spend money on my build.  Thinking about getting an oil accumulator now.

[fvike 173]

I guess that's really the bottom line . I have had many high perf cars with the old analog MSD units and they ran fine and the plugs didn't load up, so  I suppose from my experience, multi spark over 3000 rpm isn't "needed".

 

This also makes me wonder what the Nascar guys use since they rev to 10,000 rpm.

Yeah.. I guess piston speed really closes the ignition window. BTW, my engine really woke up at high RPMs when I opened up the plug gap. The ignition box produces a much better spark than my old PerTronix Ignitor. 

 

That Crane Optical Distributor is tough to find.  They don't even list them under products on their website.  Can find some of them on Jeg's but that is about it.

 

Edit: A lot of good info in this thread though and making me spend money on my build.  Thinking about getting an oil accumulator now.

Found out that Crane's ignition lines has been sold to FAST of Comp Cams. They only have the ignition box and coil on the market for now. The distributor had Crane P/N 90001500. Accumulator rocks.

[barnett468 418]

comp cams owns lunati and crane also, lol.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I don't get any hits on "Crane Optical distributor" or Crane P/N 90001500.

[fvike 173]

I thought I had found some for you on ebay, but they were race distributors without the dials to select curves and vacuum settings like the street version.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

so no comments on post #28 quench/squish?? 

[barnett468 418]

a little quench with the thin band on the top of most dished pistons is better than none.

 

high perf engines should have the deck squared to the block so the compression is equal in all the cylinders.

 

you can get custom pistons for $575.00 and have them mirror the combustion chamber so you make use of the entire quench pad on the head.

.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

you can get custom pistons for $575.00 and have them mirror the combustion chamber so you make use of the entire quench pad on the head.

.

I was afraid you would say that ;)

You recommended a Lunati 20350711  221/229  .549/.565  112 Hyd roller- mild performance street cam. Needs 5-speed or mild stall in 302 c.ii applications. Requires computer mods. Responds well to increased induction heads and headers. Likes 3.31+ gearing. 2000-6200 rpm

                What about a Crane HR-220  220/228  .531/.552 114 Hyd roller- good low end and mid range torque and HP, good idle, moderate performance usage, 1600-5600, 2600-3200 cruise rpm, good w/plate nitrous system, 9.0 to 10.5 compression ratio advised. Also good w/supercharger, 20 lbs max boost w/8.5 max compression ratio advised

[barnett468 418]

You should use 2618 material pistons with nitrous and with that much compression you should use a water methanol injection like the Snow stage 3 kit . Also a detonation sensor/ timing control box is a very good idea . Safeguard makes them.

 

Quench is far less important with nitrous or superchargers.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

OK, good to know. I didn't mean to sidetrack you, that's just the description of the cams. I'm going normally aspirated with a FiTech TBFI.

I thought the Crane would give me slightly better idle than the Lunati, since it has 2 more degrees of lobe separation??

[barnett468 418]

 

I thought the Crane would give me slightly better idle than the Lunati, since it has 2 more degrees of lobe separation??

 

 

i haven't looked them up.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

i haven't looked them up.

OK thanks, if you feel like it.

[barnett468 418]

for what you want, a custom cam is best . i would get one from chris straub . i would get a billet steel core and use the crane cam gear

 

http://www.straubtechnologies.com/

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I thought I had found some for you on ebay, but they were race distributors without the dials to select curves and vacuum settings like the street version.

Thanks for the effort

[Mach1 Driver 560]

for what you want, a custom cam is best . i would get one from chris straub . i would get a billet steel core and use the crane cam gear

 

http://www.straubtechnologies.com/

Thanks, that would take out any guess work

[barnett468 418]

Thanks, that would take out any guess work

 

No prob . In your particular case, I really think that is the best option because your request is the opposite of most peoples and a custom cam will get you the best overall performance . Just keep in mind that he makes race cams, so you need to impress on him the fact that you want it to idle as smooth as a 59 Cadillac bu do the 1/4 mile in 10 seconds flat and he can do that...sort of.

 

At the very least, give him a call and see what he says . You might get some ideas . He is very laid back and won't try to sell you something.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

 you need to impress on him the fact that you want it to idle as smooth as a 59 Cadillac bu do the 1/4 mile in 10 seconds flat and he can do that...sort of.

 

...and I love the tail fins too!!

[Mach1 Driver 560]

For Straub to design a custom cam they need a few details. I need some help with #6 and 7 below. Thanks

 

1. Car weight: 3257 lbs (with aluminum heads)

2. Engine size: 351w/408 stroker

3. Heads: AFR 1381-716, 195cc intake runners, 58cc combustion chambers

4. Compression: 10.04:1

5. 4R70W

6. Converter- ??  1953 rpm, 3.50:1 axle @65 mph, with 26.1 tire diameter and 0.667:1 trans ratio

                            2082 rpm, 3.73:1

                            2171 rpm, 3.89:1

                            2182 rpm, 3.91:1

                            2294 rpm, 4.11:1

7. Gear- ??

8. Tires: 235x60x15

9. Intended use: Cruising, daily driver, high 12 to low 13 second 1/4 mile, SMOOTH idle

[barnett468 418]

Did you talk to Chris?

 

I'm not sure what your question number 6 is, but if you want to get off the line really fast, you need at least 3.50 gears for your app and 3.73 would be better, but I wouldn't go any higher for your app.

 

The converter depends on your goal and your cam . I'm a little conservative these days because I'm not 16 anymore, so if you do much city driving, I would run around a 2600 rpm converter with your app . The problem is that the engagement rating on a converter won't be the same engagement point on all engines because it is determined by an engines torque, therefore, you need to talk directly with a converter mfg and tell them what you have.

 

Ask him what converter mfg he recommends and ask him what he thinks of B&M and TCI . This way you will have some choices.

 

 

CAM TYPE

 

You will get the most power from a solid lifter cam but they are noisy and need periodic adjustment so I don;t think you want one for your particular app . I would run a hydraulic roller . A non roller cam is insufficient for your app.

 

 

CAM MATERIAL

 

He has switched to using sadi [cast iron] cores instead of steel for the cams . This is to reduce incompatability problems with distributor gears . He will make a steel core if you prefer which is what I suggest but I suggest you use the Crane melonized steel cam gear so ask him what he thinks about all that . He may not be familiar with the Crane gear . It is the same one they used to make . It was discontinued for several years during their transition.

 

 

DISTRIBUTOR GEAR

 

I think I mentioned this already but the Crane gear is better than the MSD and Comp Cam gear . I think MSD uses the Comp gear or vise versa . He can probably tell you . Unfortunately, the Crane gear will not fit the MSD shat because they made it an odd size so you have to use their gear but you can get the id of the crane gear honed larger to fit . I would do whatever it takes to use the Crane gear . I have seen them both close up and the Crane is much smoother like it has been tumbled in a deburing machine and this reduces the potential for premature gear wear.

 

 

INCREASING TIMING SET AND DISTRIBUTOR GEAR OILING

 

I drill a .016" to .020" hole in each front lifter galley plug . This sprays massive amounts of additional oil on the timing set and distributor gears which increases life without affecting oil pressure . Some people use a .030" drill . Don't do that . A .016" thru .020" hole will spray WAY more than enough oil on them.

 

 

TIMING CHAIN SET

 

Rollmaster with the IWIS chain . You do not need the roller bearing model, however, if you get it, get the one with two roller bearings . If the block has been line honed you may need the shorter set.

 

 

LIFTERS

 

There is only one practical option imo and that is MORELS . Ask him which model you should use . They make a budget lifter with a small roller . One type is standard internals and the other type is called a limited travel type . Ask him which is best for your app . If you have a lot of lift ad spin at least 5500 rpm, the limited travel ones are best because they will collapse a little less therefore providing a little more power . The should be checked once after a few thousand miles.

 

The next step up is the tool steel MORELS . These are killer lifters but extremely expensive . A lot of guys have cams that are on the edge of needing these but they use the cheaper lifters instead and often get away with it, but he prefers to err on the side of caution and use the high dollar ones when the cams are on the edge of needing them.

 

 

OIL PUMP

 

I would just use a standard volume pump with a 60 lb spring but take it apart and run a ball hone in the bypass valve bore for around 3 seconds with WD40 and lightly sand the od of the valve with 800 wet dry with WD0 . This will positively guarantee the friggen thing won't stick . A friend of mine just bought a blueprinted pump from blueprint pumps and the friggen valve was stuck . Had to remove his engine to change it . NOT impressed.

 

 

TIRES

 

You will roast the tires . If you want to drag race, buy some Mickey Thompson ET Street Radials and a spare set of rims.

 

 

TRACTION BARS

 

You may need some.

 

 

STARTER MOTOR

 

I would use a high torque gear reduction type . My friend needed one on short notice and was low on cash so I reluctantly had him buy a Chinese one and the thing works great . I think it was only $110.00 . I hate using Chinese electrical parts but due to the high cost of some of these starters and the reliability of his, I thought I would mention it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Did you talk to Chris?

 

 

Yes I spoke with Chris, and he suggested going a different way. He said that stroking it would increase piston speed and just won't work for a smooth idle. Instead he suggested using a Dart block and boring it to 4.125, go with a 3.25 stroke (stock is 3.50) and end up with about 347 cid. Then use a long rod- maybe 6.2 to 6.25 (whatever is needed for compression etc). The heads will need 195 to 205cc intake runners, then he can develop a mild cam that will give lots of power and a smooth idle.

 

So whats got a 3.25 stroke- is that a stroked 302 crank (normally 3.0)? I'm guessing its the same basic Dart block with different deck heights? I can't find any 302 rods that long- use 351 rods? This is beginning to sound like a Frankenstein- is all this workable? Help!!

[barnett468 418]

Yes I spoke with Chris, and he suggested going a different way. He said that stroking it would increase piston speed and just won't work for a smooth idle. Instead he suggested using a Dart block and boring it to 4.125, go with a 3.25 stroke (stock is 3.50) and end up with about 347 cid. Then use a long rod- maybe 6.2 to 6.25 (whatever is needed for compression etc). The heads will need 195 to 205cc intake runners, then he can develop a mild cam that will give lots of power and a smooth idle.

 

So whats got a 3.25 stroke- is that a stroked 302 crank (normally 3.0)? I'm guessing its the same basic Dart block with different deck heights? I can't find any 302 rods that long- use 351 rods? This is beginning to sound like a Frankenstein- is all this workable? Help!!

 

I guarantee you with 110% certainty that he knows what he is doing . He actully made cams for a few national championship winning engines and made a cam for a guy that lost winning the engine masters challenge by only 4 hp and they guy said that it was his fault he lost and not the cams fault because he messed something up and didn't have time to fix it . he makes most of the cams for the racers on another site too and I think Jon Kaase has used his cams before.

 

As far as rod length goes, I doubt he would suggest a combo in which there were no rods available, so you might simply ask him what rods might work . I will take a look for rods later today, but I have seen them very close to that size then you just get custom pistons made.

 

Yes it will be an unusual build but that's no big deal, however, it sounds like he was thinking of a 302 based engine and not a 351 engine . Any idea on that?

 

To use a Dart 351 block and not stroke it at least a little would really be a crime.

 

Your requirement really is extremely hard to meet and is just the opposite of standard muscle car engine building practices, obviously the stupid LS-1 is an exception but you can't really mimic that engine, at least unless you also run all the computer controls it has and TPI injection.

 

A 347 of any configuration that has a cam that provides a lexus type idle is really going to be unimpressive when you floor it . I'm starting to think that you would be best off with a twin screw blower on it but that's not practical so maybe a Novi Supercharger . They only make a very slight whining noise and it should meet all your requirements.

 

I had to modify a broken 302 engine that had one and got a cam that idles smooth and ran 12 lbs of boost and it hauled ass . If you do that with a 351 Windsor it will be very fast and will idle smooth, so I would give that some serious consideration . You could build it with a stock block and maybe save around $700.00.

 

I would ask him what he thinks of a 351 Windsor setup [351 stroke] on a Dart block with a big bore like 4.080 or 4.125 and long rods.

 

A 3.50 stroke with 4.080 bore is 366 ci and with 4.125 bore it is 374 ci.

 

 

Here's the stroke info for a 4" bore

 

2.87 ........ 289 ci

3.00 ........ 302 ci

3.25 ........ 331 ci

3.40 ........ 347 ci

3.50 ........ 351 ci

3.75 ........ 383 ci

3.85 ........ 393 ci

4.00 ........ 408 ci

4.10 ........ 418 ci

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I guarantee you with 110% certainty that he knows what he is doing . 

 

Yes it will be an unusual build but that's no big deal, however, it sounds like he was thinking of a 302 based engine and not a 351 engine . Any idea on that?

 

 

 

No doubt about it- he is IMPRESSIVE. I should have taped the conversation- it was way over my head. He wanted a short stroke with a big bore and big runners to make it breathe. He said the Dart block could be punched out to 4.2, but I knew they spec'ed less and told him so. He said it would take it, but backed it down first to 4.155 and finally to 4.125. All he said about 302s is that he had made many over 400 hp and some around 600, so he probably was thinking 302 based. He clearly stated that a stroked 351w/408 was not the way to go for good power and a smooth idle.