Build help

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I would like your help deciding how to improve my Mach. There are lots of guys on this site with great depth of knowledge. I list what I think I want but I am open to your suggestions. Thanks.

 

Currently stock 69 Mach1, 351w 2v, FMX, A/C, PS, PB. EVERTHING listed below is changing. I will probably never race it, but I want to dust most cars off the light. Mostly used for car shows and cruising. I might even turn it into a daily driver again if I can give it “sophisticated†power that is smooth, on the quite side and has great acceleration.

 

1. 351w              _________                       Will be honed just enough to clean the bores. Has 75k miles

 

2. Compression  _________                       9.5:1 now. I wouldn't mind bumping this up as high as 10:1 but no                                                                                        further since we don't have knock sensors.

3. Pistons           _________

 

4. Edelbrock Top End Kit 2092 (except intake). Advertised as 400 hp, 412 ft-lb, at 9.5:1 compression

5. Cam               7182                                  hydraulic flat tappet

6.             intake 290, .496 w/stock rocker   Is this too much cam- will it idle rough? Compared to my LS1 it has                                                                                       13% more duration but only 6-8% more lift.

7.          exhaust 300, .520 w/stock rocker

8. Heads            60259

9.             intake 2.020

10.        exhaust 1.570

11. Intake man.  7181                                 7181 Performer RPM- fits nicely under hood, the recommended                                                                                            7581 RPM Air Gap does not

 

12. Rockers        ________                         valve spring max lift is .600

 

13. TBFI             FiTech 30001                   4 injectors 200-600 hp

14. Air cleaner K&N filter and 7/8 drop base if needed- or would the big blue bucket give enough air?

 

15. Distributor    MSD 8478                         Shortest, smallest diameter. Let FiTech adjust the timing

16. Ignition box  MSD-6A

17. Plugs            ________

 

18. Transmission 4R70W                            Lentech Street Terminator- would this shift harshly?

19. Controller        ________

20. Stall converter ________

21. Rear End         9†Trutrac                       31 spline, forged axles

22.          gearing:  ________

23. Traction bars   ________                       Traction Masters for wheel hop?

24. Wheels            Magnum 500 15x7         Speciality Wheels

25. Tires                235x60x15                     Will this combo work with a Arning/Shelby Control Arm Drop?

 

26. Headers          ________                       Doug's Tri-Y's reportedly clear the bell housing but are shorties

27. Exhaust Dia.   ________                       Mandrel formed

28. Mufflers           ________                       It has a single stock Ford muffler and always had a muscle car                                                                                            sound. I don't want to loose that but I wouldn't want it much louder.

[barnett468 418]

ok, the best way to achieve your goal is to put an chevy LS1 engine in it.

 

your problem is with the smooth idle requirement.

 

the best thing to get a lot more power but maintain a fairly smooth idle is to increase the displacement with a stroker kit which i would recommend in your case . the most common size for a 351 is 408 but 418 is better . for a daily driver and engine longevity, i would use the 408.

 

as far as buying the eddy kit, i would not do that . if you are not strapped for cash, i would buy afr heads . the 185's are good for a 351 and the 195s would be good for your app with a stroker.

 

a high lift short duration roller cam.

 

the other best way to increase acceleration is to install numerically higher gears but if you like to spin low rpm on the freeway this is a problem unless you use an overdrive which i see you have . you can use an online gear calculator to get rpm vs mph but 3.50 gears with an overdrive and around a 2200 rpm stall converter is a decent combo for moderate racing and still decent street manners . if you were 16 then maybe 3.73 gears with a 3000 rpm stall might be more appealing.

 

an rpm intake is xlnt choice.

 

2 1/2" pipes with a cross over tube and magnaflow mufflers.

 

pertronix distributirs are xlnt and cost less than msd.

 

i would use a full time, full rpm multi fire box . msd says the 6a does not do that.

 

flat top 4032 material pistons

 

.035 to .042 quench/squish.

 

you can buy a combo knock sensor and timing controller from safeguard for around $500.00

.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

your problem is with the smooth idle requirement.

 

 

Thanks barnett468, I was hoping you would chime-in. Doing a stroker hadn't occurred to me, but let me investigate and repost the questions I'm sure it will generate. 

[Rsanter 152]

Pull the original engine and set it aside...

Put a stroker 393-408 engine with aluminum heads in it. Add fuel injection.

 

Bob

[barnett468 418]

Thanks barnett468, I was hoping you would chime-in. Doing a stroker hadn't occurred to me, but let me investigate and repost the questions I'm sure it will generate. 

 

a stroker for your app will cost around $600.00 more than building a 351 which really is a small price to pay for the benefit.

 

summit racing sells several stroker kits . the lowest cost ones are the eagles ans they are fine.

 

they will wear the pistons and bores out sooner than a standard stroke will but that is the only real downside . you can get 100,000 miles out of a stock stroke . you might get 50,000 out of a stroker but there are exceptions to every rule.

 

you need to run a slightly wimpy cam with fuel injection but that's what you need to achieve your idle goals and this can be compensated for with the gearing or stall converter.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

a stroker for your app will cost around $600.00 more than building a 351 which really is a small price to pay for the benefit.

 

summit racing sells several stroker kits . the lowest cost ones are the eagles ans they are fine.

 

they will wear the pistons and bores out sooner than a standard stroke will but that is the only real downside . you can get 100,000 miles out of a stock stroke . you might get 50,000 out of a stroker but there are exceptions to every rule.

 

you need to run a slightly wimpy cam with fuel injection but that's what you need to achieve your idle goals and this can be compensated for with the gearing or stall converter.

I've been looking at the Eagle kits but so far I haven't seen one with under 10.7:1 compression. Isn't this too high for the pump gas that tops out at 93 octane with 10% ethanol in my area?

 

50k miles sucks. So if I don't stroke it and I live with the lope at idle...how does that change the equation? 

[barnett468 418]

I've been looking at the Eagle kits but so far I haven't seen one with under 10.7:1 compression. Isn't this too high for the pump gas that tops out at 93 octane with 10% ethanol in my area?

 

50k miles sucks. So if I don't stroke it and I live with the lope at idle...how does that change the equation? 

 

Fifty Thousand Miles out of an engine sucks?

 

How many miles a year do you drive this car?

 

You can piece a kit together with the correct pistons but the compression also depends on the size of the combustion chamber in the heads . You can also ge custom 4032 material pistons from Race Rech for $575.00 without rings.

 

If you don't stroke it and build the 351, it will rev farther than a stocker which will shorten the life a little also, but only when you are revving it.

 

you can stroke it to a 383 which is a good middle of the road option and it will last longer, but it costs the same to make to a 408.

 

i would use afr 195 heads with a 383

 

heres a couple cams to look at with that

 

use with 1.7 rockers

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-221275-12/overview/make/ford

 

use with 1.6 or 1.7 . 1.7 will make more power and a slightly rougher idle but thats what i would use.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-20350711/overview/make/ford

.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Fifty Thousand Miles out of an engine sucks?

 

How many miles a year do you drive this car?

 

Thanks again- I know you give rock solid information.

It hasn't been driven much in the last 25 years (that's a long and truly tragic tale)...but if I could make it a daily driver again then maybe I would drive it 10k per year. At only 50k it would last less than 10% of its age (hey everything is relative- I bought this thing when I was a pup). I know LS1s in C5s that have over 200k on them (good old Mobil 1). Yes I know, I should put a LS1 in it. I have a Toyota with 150k on it- yes I know, there's no comparison. The newer motors and technology have spoiled us. If you want the old cars and lots of horse power you have to deal with the consequences, but dang it I don't have to like it!

So you've given me lots to think about and research :) More questions will ensue.

[barnett468 418]

one of the things that increases cylinder life is doing a plateau hone on the cylinders

[fvike 173]

I've been looking at the Eagle kits but so far I haven't seen one with under 10.7:1 compression. Isn't this too high for the pump gas that tops out at 93 octane with 10% ethanol in my area?

 

 

You are basicly describing my 351W engine. It's .030 overbored, Edelbrock RPM top end kit. Heads ported, and intake and heads are portmatched.  I ran a Speed Demon 750VE on it. Scat cast crank and Scat forged H-beam rods. I have Wiseco Pro Tru forged pistons that gives me 10.80:1 comp ratio. Works well, I run it on 98 octane RON, which translates to 93.5 US (R+M)/2 octane. I have a Crane Digital Hi-6 (which is full time multispark like Barnett recommends for you.) with their digital/optical distributor. I belive the Crane box to be superior to the MSD 6A. I haven't had any pinging/knocking anyway. I wouldn't worry about the Eagle 10.7:1 kit.

 

Here's a video of the startup after the last rebuild. I think it runs smooth enough for you, even on a carb.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDlUqJYHLsg

[barnett468 418]

Nice car fvike.

 

What is that bottle in your trunk?

 

Why do you like the Crane boxes better?

 

Which one do yo have?

[fvike 173]

Thanks. The bottle is an Moroso 3qt Accusump. The 3" Windsor mains didn't love trackdays to much, so I burnt a few bearings. The accusump was the solution to that. It's also great for pre-oiling the engine before startup.

I like the Crane box better because it is digital (opposed to the analog MSD 6AL at the time I bought my box, they are also digital now.), and it's multispark pretty much the whole RPM range. It also has a better interface with dial wheels for RPM limits, rather than the MSD pin system. 

I have the Crane HI-6 CD and LX92 coil. Along with the Crane optical distributor. It has pre-programmed curves that you select with a dial. No weights or anything like that inside it.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Thanks fvike, that's very nice, and the video shows it all with engine, cockpit and pipes. We have 10% ethanol added here- do you also?

I found this about ethanol blends:

Ethanol has high octane and a strong cooling effect when it evaporates so it is inherently detonation resistant... BUT it also has lower energy value so the same quantity of ethanol will result in a leaner mixture compared to gas. The lean mixture can cause detonation despite the higher octane.
A carb perfectly tuned for gasoline will need bigger jets to dial in A/F ratio with ethanol or ethanol blended fuel. Most setups are "close enough" to switch between straight gas and 10% ethanol blend gas but higher percentages of ethanol can throw off the A/F mixture a lot. Bigger jets would be needed for E85.

 

FYI, E85 is 15% gas. I'm curious if anyone with a stroker here in the states has any issues with 10%?

Most of the independent testing agencies have come out against E85 because it destroys fuel system components.

[barnett468 418]

E85 is 85% acohol and 15% gasoline . You can run high compression with it like 13:1.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

E85 is 85% acohol and 15% gasoline . You can run high compression with it like 13:1.

Rereading that I did imply 15% ethanol, so amended it to say gas, thanks.

So the question still remains- is 10.7:1 too high for 93 octane pump gas with 10% ethanol? Anybody out there run that combination? I read that 10.0:1 is the max you should go. I'm thinking your suggestion of custom RaceTec** pistons is still the way to go unless someone has experience indicating otherwise. 

** your post said "Race Rech"- can I assume you suffer from fat fingers as I do?

 

I think Rsanter had a good suggestion- take the engine out, set it aside and build another engine that is a stroker. I think I'll do that and also set the FMX aside. I'll have to read-up on how to preserve them properly. On the other hand there doesn't seem to be much demand for a numbers matching 351w car. The big bucks go to big motors.

[barnett468 418]

ok, the compression issue is not simple black and white . there are many factors that determine how much compression you can get away with and it would take a full page to explain it all but you are really concerned about dynamic compression, not static or uncorrected compression . yes some people get away with running fairly high compression do to their combos or because they live at high elevations etc . below ae some factors that affect how much static compression you can run.

 

vehicle weight

 

gearing

 

camshaft

 

cylinder head material

 

quench/squish clearance

 

elevation

 

engine temp

 

ambient air temp

 

 

based on what i think you want, 10.7 is doable but imo it is on the upper limit . i love compression and run as much compression and timing as i can, but i would sure hate to suggest something that is on the high side that may cause a detonation problem . if i do that to myself it's ok . l also see you live in georgia where it gets to 100 degrees in the summer . thats not great for high compression either.

 

my philosophy is this . unless an engine is primarily being used for racing, it is far more intelligent to err on the side of caution and build them with a little safety margin built in like run a little less compression and timing than what might be possible so it is guaranteed not to have a problem.

 

someone will ALWAYS have a car that is faster than yours or mine and it will likely be some import like a honda, so as long as i can roast the tires, i  really dont care if i am roasting them with 400 hp or 500 hp, and if i had a high horse car that had traction control, i would turn it off.

.

 

.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

someone will ALWAYS have a car that is faster than yours or mine and it will likely be some import like a honda, so as long as i can roast the tires, i  really dont care if i am roasting them with 400 hp or 500 hp, and if i had a high horse car that had traction control, i would turn it off.

.

 

.

agreed

[fvike 173]

Thanks fvike, that's very nice, and the video shows it all with engine, cockpit and pipes. We have 10% ethanol added here- do you also?

 

 

No, not where I live. We have up to 5% ethanol but only in the south eastern part of Norway - 40% of the market. I live in the middle of Norway, some 125 miles beneath the Arctic Circle, so my car does not get ethanol. I use the Shell V-Power Nitro+ gasoline.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I like the Crane box better because it is digital (opposed to the analog MSD 6AL at the time I bought my box, they are also digital now.), and it's multispark pretty much the whole RPM range. It also has a better interface with dial wheels for RPM limits, rather than the MSD pin system. 

I have the Crane HI-6 CD and LX92 coil. Along with the Crane optical distributor. It has pre-programmed curves that you select with a dial. No weights or anything like that inside it.

I found this on Crane's website:

Multiple Spark Duration 20 degrees crankshaft rotation below 3,000 RPM. Max 12 sparks per sequence with 1 millisecond interval between sparks.

Does anyone know of an ignition box that gives multiple sparks above 3k?

[barnett468 418]

yes, the msd 6al2

[Mach1 Driver 560]

yes, the msd 6al2

The only reference to sparking on their website is under Capacitive Discharge Ignitions:

The one short coming of a CD ignition is that the spark has very short duration. This isn’t a problem at higher rpm, but could be a lower rpm. However, engineers found that with the increased voltage and nearly instant recovery, the spark can be fired multiple times on the same cycle, hence multiple spark ignitions (or multi-strike, or second strike, etc…). At an idle there may be five or six sparks, and as rpm increases, the number of sparks decreases. Generally, most CD ignitions produce multiple sparks through about 3,000 rpm. Keep in mind that we’re discussing cycles that occur within milli-seconds!

 

I can find no claim that the 6AL2 fires multiple sparks above 3k. I think its the physics of the thing- you can't charge the caps quick enough.

I found this on another site: http://dtec.net.au/Multi%20Spark%20Ignition.htm

 

Time Constraints on Multi-sparking:

There are time issues and processor loading considerations when implementing multi-spark (time to calculate it and actually effectively do it).

The burning mixture can be drawn away from the plug by turbulence and if fresh un-combusted mixture is present it may be ignited with another spark.  Research has shown that the sparks needed to be less than a couple of degrees apart to work effectively (you can see now where time issues start arising)

If you start to consider the relationship between degrees, time and rpm you can understand the time constraints imposed.

At 1000 rpm the crank travels 6 degrees in just 1ms (this may well be the time required to charge the coil up again). 1 degree pass’s in just 0.17ms!

Its obvious multi-sparking can only be effective at very low engine speeds.

 

 

With a 2 degree crankshaft window of opportunity to actually lite the mixture (If I did my math correctly) this would give you .111ms at 3000 rpm for a second spark, and of course it only gets shorter as the rpm goes up. So if someone is doing this I sure would like to know who.

[barnett468 418]

I can find no claim that the 6AL2 fires multiple sparks above 3k. I think its the physics of the thing- you can't charge the caps quick enough.

 

That is because MSD changed their site within the last year and removed that info, however, you can simply call MSD on the number they have posted on their site and ask them which boxes have what features . I know for a fact that their previous description for the MSD2AL said something to the effect that it fired multiple sparks for 20 degrees of crank rotation up to 10,000 or 14,000 rpm or so . If it didn't, I wouldn't have said it did . This does not mean that it does, it only means that their site used to say it does which could have been an error on their part which may be one of the reasons they redid their site.

 

MSD TECH LINE 915 - 855-7123

 

 

PERTRONIX III also claims multi spark throughout the entire rpm range but who knows for certain what it does.

 

http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor3/default.aspx

 

.

[fvike 173]

I found this on Crane's website:

Multiple Spark Duration 20 degrees crankshaft rotation below 3,000 RPM. Max 12 sparks per sequence with 1 millisecond interval between sparks.

Does anyone know of an ignition box that gives multiple sparks above 3k?

I'm surprised by this. I've had my Crane HI-6 for about 8-9 years now.. always thought it was multispark over the entire register. LOL, learn something every day. Well, it does work great over 3000 rpm too..

[Mach1 Driver 560]

That is because MSD changed their site within the last year and removed that info... If it didn't, I wouldn't have said it did.

 

MSD TECH LINE 915 - 855-7123

 

 

PERTRONIX III also claims multi spark throughout the entire rpm range but who knows for certain what it does.

 

http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor3/default.aspx

 

 

I get that you wouldn't have said it unless they had claimed it- and I appreciate that. Probably some over zealous marketing person. Their tech line says that all their ignition controls give it up at 3k.

 

Pertronix seems to be another story---however it is buried in the distributor and doesn't have a clean tach output. Since I'm going to turn all timing control over to the FiTech that doesn't work for me. But if they can do it so can others, so I'll keep looking.

[barnett468 418]

I get that you wouldn't have said it unless they had claimed it- and I appreciate that. Probably some over zealous marketing person. Their tech line says that all their ignition controls give it up at 3k.

 

Pertronix seems to be another story---however it is buried in the distributor and doesn't have a clean tach output. Since I'm going to turn all timing control over to the FiTech that doesn't work for me. But if they can do it so can others, so I'll keep looking.

 

Well you brought up an interesting point about the capacitors . Since the Pertronix increases voltage by increasing dwell instead of using a separate box, it may be that they can do it and others cant . I kinda got a D in Electronics in high school so I really have no clue so I am a victim of whatever these companies say.

.