Need Help 69 R Code Verification

[carsnguitars 10]

New to this forum, and going to look at a 69 R code Mach I for sale.

I figured I would get help from the experts before I jump in head first!

 

So in lil bit rough shape, engine does not run says it has 31 spline drag pack rear??

It porbably need tear down sandblast and complete restore. Last time was on raod according to seller was mid 70's.

Questions:

Verifying Vin locations on car - I seen the dash ViN it is R code outta Michigan.

Engine ID partial Vin location

Tranny have partial vin?

What other things should I look for on the car.

 

All help appreciated, I have heard horror stories people trying to pas cars off as something they are not.

[69RavenConv 286]

VIN on dash should match VIN stamped on each inner fender rail, if you can remove a fender to see one.

Big blocks had reinforced shock towers from the factory.

True drag pack cars had an oil cooler in front of the radiator on the driver's side, which forced both horns to be mounted together on the passenger side.

Door tag should confirm (match) the car's build, although doors are often replaced w/salvage doors.

 

That's all I can think of off-hand, there's probably more...

[Klutch 17]

If you're not in a big hurry, I would recommend ordering a Marti Report on the car. All you need is the VIN and it's a small fee for a basic report. Marti will email you the report in a few days. It will tell you exactly when the car was built, where it was built, where it was delivered and every option ordered on the car.

 

Considering the cost of an R Code Mach 1 and the potential for it to be bogus, I think the cost of a Marti report is cheap insurance. Also, knowing which options originally came on the car goes a long way with determining value. Many people ordered a big block Mach 1 back then with 4-wheel drum brakes. (They believed the discs created extra drag and affected 1/4 mile times, or something.) If, for example, the Marti report doesn't list disc brakes as an option, yet there are discs on the car, likely someone threw on Granada brakes at some point and that would lower the value.

 

I'm pretty sure all the R-Code Mach 1 Mustangs automatically came with a tachometer. If it's there, great. If it's missing, that lowers the value.

 

So, with your Marti report and a list of all the things that should be on the car, give it a good look and check off everything that's there. (Oil Cooler: Check. Rear anti-sway bar: check, etc.) Politely point out to the seller anything that's missing. It's a given that missing original parts lowers the value. Anyone who argues otherwise is delusional. This is especially important for an R-Code Mach 1 as these cars had many unique parts. And procuring them is difficult and EXPENSIVE. Even small things like accessory brackets can be a bear. And emissions parts? Oh, the humanity!

 

Of course, if this particular car has hard to find parts, like the original emissions equipment, that adds to the value. It's only fair.

 

Keep us posted!

Edited September 26, 2012 by Klutch

[LindenBruce 27]

See if the seller will let you take some pics. And if so, take some pics of the engine compartment, the training edge of the driver's door were the warranty plate should be, the vin in the window and the dash. If the vin is stamped into the engine block, it will be on the rear just below the cylinder head should be on the driver's side but check both sides. The factory wasn't very good at stamping it so just because it's not there it doesn't mean the engine is not original.

 

Tach's were not automatic on CJ's. Mine is an original double R-Code automatic non drag pack and it does not have a tach.

 

Bruce

[Klutch 17]

Tach's were not automatic on CJ's. Mine is an original double R-Code automatic non drag pack and it does not have a tach.

 

Good to know.

[jholmes217 65]

4 speed cars also usually had staggered back shocks.

[carsnguitars 10]

Thx for all the info so far...Got seller send a few pics...going to go look at it in person.

 

Here is engine bay....looks like missing alot of pieces here...

[carsnguitars 10]

couple more underneath.

[carsnguitars 10]

I did not realize R code mustang parts that costly and hard to get. I did a 1st Gen camaro few years back, and thought Mustang part were pretty widely available and not that costly, like Mopar stuff seems to be.

 

Good to know..thanks for that tip for sure...

[Klutch 17]

Most Mustang parts are pretty cheap and readily available; except for 428 Mustang parts. A lot of those under-the-hood parts were specific not just to the 428 engine, but the 428 engine in a Mustang. I admit I'm not an expert on the subject. But a guy in my Mustang club owns a very nice '69 Mach 1 with the original 428 SCJ and he often tells me how crazy the prices are getting for 428 Mustang parts.

 

Which gets into the pictures. It appears someone went crazy with a can of Krylon semi-gloss black. That's no big deal. But I don't see any accessory brackets. Definitely ask the seller if he has those specific brackets. If he says something like, "Oh, I've got something laying around that will work", that might not cut it for a 428 Mustang. I understand the exhaust manifolds are also pretty pricey. I'm sure the guys who are currently driving one of these cars can provide accurate, amplifying info.

 

The car you're looking at does have a shaker, which is really cool. If it was missing, you could expect to pay up to $2,000 to get a complete 428 shaker setup.

 

That appears to be a Mallory Unilite distributor. Those are nice distributors, but again, the original would be best. If it's missing, that affects the value.

 

A '69 R-Code Mach 1 might be more comparible to a 396 Camaro, or a '69 Z/28. The big block Camaros had some unique parts under the hood and the original Z/28 302 engines are pretty hard to find.

 

It does get worse. I've heard horror stories from people trying to restore a Boss 429 Mustang. Those things have all kinds of rare and unique parts.

 

FYI, I've heard the Ford FE engines can be expensive to build. I've never built one myself. But I do know it's not like building a small block Ford; and certainly not like building a small block Chevy.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Klutch

[Kiwi John 10]

Make sure the heads have 4 bolt holes for the exhaust manifolds, CJ heads and manifolds always had 4 any other heads had 2 each port.

CJ's also had a steel protective bracket that went around the heater motor to protect it from the close proximity of the manifolds.

The rear end looks good, there should be a big "N" cast into the middle square area of the carrier just above the bumper bkt. N (high nodular iron) case carriers are rare and worth a lot.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Kiwi John

[Klutch 17]

Make sure the heads have 4 bolt holes for the exhaust manifolds, CJ heads and manifolds always had 4 any other heads had 2 each port.

CJ's also had a steel protective bracket that went around the heater motor to protect it from the close proximity of the manifolds.

The rear end looks good, there should be a big "N" cast into the middle square area of the carrier just above the bumper bkt. N (high nodular iron) case carriers are rare and worth a lot.

 

Did only the CJ Mach 1 Mustangs get the nodular iron third member? My '70 Mach 1 has the original 9" rear end. But it's just a 3.0 open differential. I doubt it would be a nodular iron example.

[carsnguitars 10]

SO founfd this link doing some reseach

http://rustingmusclecars.com/ford/1969-mach-1-428

 

I think this is car...engine bay looks same...same body dents in same places....side moulding missing...looks same...

only diff car got not so great new paint job in Bronze with lots of issues....n the engine bay is all touched up in black (hmm hide rust for a bit)...even not the exact same car pretty much could be....I know more when I check it out..on original color..

 

SO what you guys think this one be worth ball park.....

[jholmes217 65]

The intake manifold looks aluminum, if it's a 4 speed car, the back shocks don't look staggered, and it doesn't have an original cooling fan. Besides checking the VIN, I'd also get the casting numbers off the block and heads to ensure it is 428 CJ engine.

 

This site has a wealth of knowledge on the 428 Cobra Jet Mustangs. http://www.428cobrajet.org/

[Klutch 17]

SO founfd this link doing some reseach

http://rustingmusclecars.com/ford/1969-mach-1-428

 

I think this is car...engine bay looks same...same body dents in same places....side moulding missing...looks same...

only diff car got not so great new paint job in Bronze with lots of issues....n the engine bay is all touched up in black (hmm hide rust for a bit)...even not the exact same car pretty much could be....I know more when I check it out..on original color..

 

SO what you guys think this one be worth ball park.....

 

I don't think it's the same car. The care you're looking at appears to be blue a "bronze" fender. I also doubt someone went through the effort of patching the very large shock tower holes in that Florida car.

 

I couldn't venture to guess a value with so little information. Primary considerations will be original options, the amount of rust and how many original parts it's missing. And big block muscle cars aren't fetching what they were before 2008.

[carsnguitars 10]

You guys are great help with info!

I know the other not same but spitting image of the bronze one I am looking at.

It worries me guy said not been registered since mid 70s has 55k on odometer and yet engine bay missing alot of parts.

Plus you look fresh beach spray in bay and how engine looks newly sprayed yet water pump n pulleys rusty.

Guy wants 16 for it as well.

I going check all obvious stuff and if still interested pay a mustang shop to check the rest.

Too much money to not invest time and money to make sure.

I have always wanted a Mach I

Heck my first every car was 76 mustang II now that's a car!!

[Klutch 17]

I don't know the value. Just be sure you know how much it's going to cost you to restore it. Of course, that number will go up and the project progresses. But I'd hate for you to be pulling your hair out after paying to replace frame rails and torque boxes in addition to scouring the internet for precious CJ parts.

 

If it starts to get a little too rich for you, consider finding a small block Mach 1. Those still aren't cheap. But they are less expensive to buy and build than an R-Code Mach 1. Of course, the big advantage with restoring an R-Code is it will be worth more than an M-Code when you're done. But getting there can be a bear.

[LindenBruce 27]

Thx for all the info so far...Got seller send a few pics...going to go look at it in person.

Here is engine bay....looks like missing alot of pieces here...

 

Radiator is a small block radiator as is the fan and possibly the water pump pulley.

 

All of the thermactor air injection system is missing, which cost's at least $1500 to replace.

 

Exhaust manifolds are missing and run about $550 repo.

 

Air cleaner snorkel and "S" tube are missing and that's going to be about another$500. Also the heat shield around the passenger exhaust manifold is missing and those are at least another $500.

 

Distributor is wrong and a correct used one is going to cost around $700.

 

Intake manifold is wrong, but may not be a problem depending on which one is currently there. Would need the casting number from the top of the front #1 runner to say what it is.

 

The shock tower to firewall braces are missing, but those are readily available used.

 

Good thing is it looks like the shock towers are original reinforced "R" code towers.

 

If that's a big block shaker you are money ahead there.

 

There is now way I would pay 16k for this car with all of those missing high dollar items. If he has then, I would still chew him down. Bruce

[LindenBruce 27]

couple more underneath.

 

No staggered rear shocks so it's not a drag pack car. No real problem there though.

 

Looks like 3/8" steel fuel lines so that indicates a big block car.

 

Floor pans don't look to bad at all.

 

Yeah, check those heads out real good. if it doesn't have 16 exhaust manifold bolt holes they are not 428CJ heads. 14 holes would indicate 390gt heads and 8 bolt holes are standard fair FE heads.

 

Klutch, I think all high performance cars got the nodular rear center sections but don't quote me on that. I know mine has the nodular center section, but believe it or not it had the standard 3.50:1 open rear WITH 31 spline axles. Go figure. I got a factory traction lock unit, rebuilt it and changed gearing to 3.73:1. No more one wheel peel for this old girl!!!

 

Bruce

Edited September 27, 2012 by LindenBruce

[Kiwi John 10]

It was all manual transmission cars that had staggered shocks, auto's did not, even scj auto's did not.

cj's came stock with 3:50 gears, correct me if I'm wrong, if you ordered 3:91 or 4:30 then you got the scj (drag pac) Traction loc was standard with these gears with the Detroit Locker optional.

Ford thought if you were ordering these gears you were going drag racing so they beefed up the bottom end for reliability. Not more hp just stronger.

[carsnguitars 10]

wow wealth of info....yeah seller says it is 31 spline heavy duty drag pack rear.

I know from reading verifying the engine without pulling can be tricky..

I am hoping to go see it next day or two, waiting to hear back from seller.

I did send in for Marti report as suggested, not sure how long before get it back.

I was guessing based on the condition of car, 25-30 by time I am done. Long project!!

Here is pic of the car.

[carsnguitars 10]

This is lil harder one for me...I have 68 rs ss camaro..that was easy to verify and gt parts..also have 70 chally rt, again vin on engine easy to verify parts not so cheap...

I wanted a Mach I, but more read more I get confused on things. Some have Vins some dont on engine, pull engine check firewall side etc...

I do appeciate all this info from people who have been there done that.

I know this, if it does not feel right I walk, and I dont want to over pay.

 

Back to studing up on the car.....thank goodness for net, but it can also be misleading...

[LindenBruce 27]

That's my understanding. From what I have read, yes, the 3.91 or 4.30 rears are drag pack cars. That meant an engine oil cooler, no A/C, LeMans connecting rods, a different crank shaft, different vibration damper and different flywheel. HP and TQ were the same from what I have read. Bruce

[LindenBruce 27]

wow wealth of info....yeah seller says it is 31 spline heavy duty drag pack rear.

I know from reading verifying the engine without pulling can be tricky..

I am hoping to go see it next day or two, waiting to hear back from seller.

I did send in for Marti report as suggested, not sure how long before get it back.

I was guessing based on the condition of car, 25-30 by time I am done. Long project!!

Here is pic of the car.

 

Bring a smallish mirror with you when you go see the car. You can use it to check the back of the block, just below the cylinder head at the deck line, for the vin. Depending on the date of manufacture and the assembly plant, the vin may or may not be there. If it's not there, that doesn't necessarily mean the block isn't native to the car. Just no real way to verify without contact all the previous owners of the car. The painted heads are in stark contrast to the block, along with an aluminum intake, makes me think there may have been some parts switching. Unless this guy has a lot or all of those missing parts, or is willing to really drop the price, I would be leary about this purchase. Give it a really good inspection though. Bruce

[Kiwi John 10]

look at the ends of the rear axles, if you see 2 drilled holes opposite each other the axles are 31 spline (cj) if there is a large cast indentation they are reg 28 spline axles. There are no hub caps on it so it should be right there in the wheel hole.