Blowing Smoke

[Big Secz 26]

Hello,

 

I'm new to this forum. It was recommended to me by another member. I have a 1970 convertible. My issue is that it is blowing smoke and I'm looking for any sort of recommendations.

 

I know the smoke is related to a fuel issue because of the color and the smell. I have carbon residue in my tailpipe and carbon deposits on my spark plugs.

 

I have pulled the dipstick and there are no signs of antifreeze, the oil is fine, so I'm fairly certain that this is just a fuel issue.

 

It's a 302 with and Edelbrock Performer intake and a Holley 600 CFM 4160 carb with non-adjustable floats.

 

Below I have inlcuded images of what the spark plug looks like that I pulled out of the car a month ago, all the spark plugs look like this.

 

I've also included a video. The hard starting in the beginning I think is due to the cold weather and the car had been sitting for a week without starting.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orhs3E5uUzc

[foothilltom 33]

It's running rich at idle apparently. Does it run rich at higher RPMs? Have you tried adjusting the idle mixture? Lean the jets? From the looks of your engine compartment, I'm guessing you know all of this.

[foothilltom 33]

Oh, and welcome to the forum! Perhaps a bit more background info from you would be helpful. Like, how long have you owned your 70 vert? Did you restore it yourself? That kind of thing.

 

Tom

[S code 69 13]

If you're talking about what's in your video that's not smoke it's condensation.

 

 

Did you pull those plugs after idleing around in cold weather? if so they don't mean much, and your choke might be a little rich too. Your plugs look like maybe a little oil , probably guides or seals maybe rings if it is. how old is your engine? I had a new engine with teflon seals that drank oil, I put viton seals on and cured it. maybe it's rich but the pictures look like oil, hard to tell from pictures for me, it needs to be warmed up and run hard to know from plugs.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

Possiably carb too rich but, White smoke is a sign of coolant burning.

As your video shows up as white clouds in it and the pic's of the plugs have a wet look my guess would be an intake or head gasket seeping.

 

Plus your lifters are rattling more than my solid lifter system does, So an adjustment may be in order also.

[S code 69 13]

Most of the time a head gasket or intake leak will put more in one side than the other, you can get a little leak over from the cross pipe but you're too even. to burn that much water you should almost be able to see your radiator go down, are you losing water? if not then there is a 100% probability it's simple condensation from a cold car on a cold day.

 

Your plugs are another issue either gas or oil but it will take more information to tell.

[Big Secz 26]

A little history on the car. I purchased it February of this year so I haven't had it a full year yet. I'm the fourth owner of the car. The previous owner said that the motor was rebuild 8 years prior. However I don't believe this because as you can see from the before picture of the motor I find it hard to believe a motor could look like that after 8 years and if it was rebuilt why would you put a dirty motor back in the car? I'm thinking maybe they just did a refirbirsh and not a rebuild.

 

The motor is the original numbers matching motor. This was confirmed when I had a friend of mine install the intake and new carb. When I got the car it had the stock intake and 2bbl carb. I had problems with stalling and hesitation that I figured was due to the car. Instead of rebuilding I opted to upgrade to a 4bbl carb.

 

Shortly after that I had problems starting and after having a mechanic take a look at it upon his recommendation I replaced the distributor withe a MSD billet distributor and also installed new plug wires and starter solenoid.

 

After that I had issues with running too hot. I then installed a big block radiator and new 180 thermostat.

 

The car ran fine after all of this but I did have an engine tapping. About two months ago when the weather was still warm I noticed the smoking and carbon in the tailpipe.

 

About a month ago I attempted to adjust the vavles myself, big mistake, and replaced all the spark plugs. After I attempted to adjust the vavles is when I got the bad vibration in the motor.

 

Neverhteless I still had the smoking issue as well. I understand the smoke colors, blue = oil, white = water, black = fuel. It doesn't smell like burning oil, or have a sweet smell like antifreeze. It's a fuel smell. My clothes smelt like I soaked them in gas after I shot this video. I pulled the dipstick and there are no signs of antifreeze. The oil looks normal and is normal density. If I had a blown gasket then there should be signs of antifreeze in the oil, correct?

 

Below are the before and after pics of the motor.

[S code 69 13]

Most of the time some antifreeze will get in the oil in time, but if you're not losing water forget that. does it burn oil or have you driven it enough to know? does the black on the plugs wipe off like dry black or is it sticky or hard?

 

The smell of gas on a cold engine warming up doesn't mean anything, if it still smells that way after warming up and driving a while you may have a carb issue. if you have a good cam or are running a performance engine buuld it will always smell rich in most cases.

[Print Dad 58]

Hello All,

This is the old Print Dad. This is my friend having sooooo much trouble.

What he has not said is that he has tried taking the car to several "reputable" recommended mechanics and each time he does, it seems get worse.

 

He needs HELP. I know it is very hard to tell much from videos but that's all we got.

 

This is a guy that needs your help. He has spent a lot of money and the car is far from right. I told him this forum was filled with great helpers.

 

I do believe in this forum.

 

Why would it be that each time a mechanic adjusts the rockers they sound like crap in less than 35 miles?

 

Could he have a lobe issue or an oil pump problem.. I advised he hook up a cheap ol pressure gage to check things.

 

One mechanic thinks he has a bad wrist pin. I couldn;t hear it in the videos but what do you people think.

 

I really want to help this guy.

 

Thanks to all and any and all suggestions greatly appreciated.... Print Dad

[LoneWolf2U 136]

A seeping gasket may not contaminate the oil if it is seeping into the combustion chambers or intake.

The vibration may be from a valve or two being too tight or too loose.

As Pd says after 35 miles it sounds like crap, the rocker nuts may have lost thier self-locking and are working loose or the studs are moving up if your running a high lift cam.

 

Use a vac guage hooked up on the intake and respond with readings.

This may tell you what part of the problem is.

 

The over rich gas smell may be from an internal leak in the carb seeping into the intake and adding to the ruff running conditions.

 

The more info you can supply there better it can be for us locked in this little screen.

[Big Secz 26]

I'm not sure what more I can provide. Like Print Dad had mentioned I had been to a couple mechanics. After a friend of mine installed the intake and carb I had it taken to a "reputable" local mechanic.

 

Mechanic 1

 

At the time the car was having problems with sputtering, starting, and a tapping. This mechanic replaced the distirbutor with an MSD billet distributor, upgraded plug wires to 8mm, replaced starter solenoid, changed spark plugs and adjusted the carb. When I went to pick up the car it ran great or so I thought. Once I got about four two miles from his shop I noticed the tapping had come back. Another five miles I noticed the thermostat creaping higher. Come to find out this guy would just start it for a bit and since everything seemed good he thought he had fixed the problem.

 

After that is when I replaced the radiator and thermostat, but naturally I still had the tapping. Like I had mentioned I attempted to adjust the valves but I think I did it too tight. When I bolted the valve covers back on and started the car is when the there was now vibration in the motor.

 

Mechanic 2

 

The most recent mechanic was pressed for time and only had a day to give it a quick look. He adjusted the choke on my carb, "adjusted" the valves, ran both a compression test and vacuum test and both of which he said checked out ok. What you see in the video is after I got it back from mechanic 2. He told me that he'd have more time to look at it after the 1st of the year.

[S code 69 13]

Do you have solid or hydraulic lifters? if you said I missed it.

[Big Secz 26]

hydraulic

[S code 69 13]

How much preload are you giving them?

[Big Secz 26]

How much preload are you giving them?

 

Since mechanic 2 has adjusted the valves I have to check with him on that. So right now I don't know.

[S code 69 13]

You can get away with a fair amount of preload, and if you don't have enough you'll have plenty of noise. if your lifters are a little tired only adds to the problem, there is a good chance you'll find your noise here. as far as the smoke goes if you're not drinking water and you don't think you're burning oil mess with the carb. keep in mind to burn enough gas to cause smoke would be more than just a minor problem, if you can swap a carb on it and try it would be a good way to see fast.

 

 

Is there anything you can do or not do to make it smoke worse or less? when on compression? on start up? cold? warm? ect. ?

[Print Dad 58]

Hello S code 69,

Thanks for helping out. I am just curious if you heard a wrist pin in the video?

I know it is most difficult to hear but I have listened to a few of his videos and I couldn't

hear much but noise from the valve train.

 

I also realize it is next to impossible to analyze with just a short video but I am looking for ideas here.

I suggested to him to measure the rocker travel perhaps a worn lobe?

I just can't help but think it is top end related.

I also suggest hooking up a temp oil pressure gage to see what that shows in real numbers. Perhaps this will help.

 

This car is getting him down because of all the trouble and use of several

mechanics. I just wish I were smarter and could help more.

 

To you and all the others that have offered help..Thanks.

 

I hope a few more people will chime in with their opinions as well...... Print Dad

[S code 69 13]

OK I watched the whole video, I'm not sure if I get what the problem is. I see condensation and it sounds like the rockers need taken up a little. I don't hear anything to worry about, if that's all the worse the rockers are I wouldn't worry too much, the loose ones are going to make a little noise and not hurt anything but I would check them just incase they weren't done right and some are loose and some are tight, tight will hurt but that's not your noise.

 

Get a good mechanic to run the rockers and tell him you don't want to hear anything so go to the tighter side or just do it yourself and set them up to stock specs don't worry about being so light on the preload. adjustable rockers on hydraulic lifters are a big pain in the butt to most people because they always want to set them at the outer limits rather than where they belong and this noise is what you get. I preffer to just get proper length push rods made for what I've decked and milled off , then use stock rockers and forget it.

 

Maybe there's something I'm not getting in the video or reading here but it seems like you might be looking for trouble where there isn't any. don't worry you know your engine isn't new anyway so adjust things up keep an eye on your oil and water levels and drive it, if it's serious it will show you where the problem is in due time. if you get definete trouble signs the diagnosis will be much easier.

[Print Dad 58]

Hello S code 69,

I am not sure where Big Secz is but I know a little more info I can provide.

 

Keep in mind, my friend is pretty new to wrenching but this is what happened.

 

One day while driving, his gas pedal linkage stuck and the motor revved till he shut it off. He fixed the linkage but the car was running rough. He talked to several Mustang people and they told him about mechanic A.

He took the car to mechanic A and the mechanic thought it was a carb issue so they swapped out the carb. The car was still not running well so Mechanic A installed a Petronix and adjusted the rockers. Ironically it was at this time that the radiator blew.

So Big S took the car back to the mechanic and this mechanic thought there was a wrist pin or piston slap. Mechanic A advised to take the car to mechanic B.

 

Upon researching "Big" found that mechanic B was highly recommended by local Ford people. The car was still running rough and there seemed to develop a problem in the tranni or flex plate. It was thought that the problem could be in the rear-end. When you coast down there is a bang sound??? It is a C-4 auto but that is not the main issue.

 

The car was taken to mechanic B. Mechanic B was told of all that was done and the concern of a piston slap. Mechanic B kept the car for about 10 days and did adjustments to the carb, rockers etc. The car was picked up and driven about 30 minutes to home. When the car arrived home, there were noises in the motor.

 

The car sat and was finally taken to a retired mechanic. This mechanic did compression and vacuum tests and was happy with the numbers but we don't know what they were.

This last retired gentleman, adjusted the valves and returned the car.

 

Now the motor has a roughness and there is still noises.

 

It would be a shame to pull the motor apart only to find out that there is no problem with the pistons and pins.

 

I have not seen many wrist pins loosen on Fords but I guess it could be that.

If I am correct the piston should slap more under load.

 

I have listened to several videos and each time I hear noises that seem to be from the rockers. I am no mechanic and I know it is hard to figure things out over the net, but I am not certain he has a major problem.

 

Now I think he is getting nervous upon seeing the exhaust smoke. He does not want to rebuild the motor unless he knows that this is what is wrong.

 

I am sure he will post soon. Must be busy with the holiday preperations.

 

Thanks S code and all the others. I just think his trouble is not as bad as what people are telling him they could be. Print Dad

[S code 69 13]

A pin seldom just starts making noise, it's a long process and I doubt very much that's the problem. if the engine over reved I'd sooner thing a skirt let go or a valve got bent, though the compression test should have picked that up.

 

I still think I'd check the valve adjudstment and IF they're all within spec go with max preload and try that. if that doesn't cure it why not just drive it, you can rebuild it later just as easy as now and there's a good chance it's fine, and if it's not the problem may give itself up in the mean time and can be fixed.

[Big Secz 26]

Sorry for the delay in posting. Like Print Dad mentioned I’ve been a little busy getting ready for the Holiday. So here’s step by step what happened to get me to where I am now.

The problems started around the June timeframe. The car would have issues with sputtering and stalling. I talked to Mechanic A and he said that it appeared to be a carb issue. It had a stock 2bbl carb on it at the time. He recommended that instead of rebuilding the 2bbl carb I upgrade to a 4bbl. So he installed the Edelbrock Performer intake and Holley 600 CFM carb. After working on it for a few days he still couldn’t get it running right so installed a Pertronix ignition system. It seemed to run fine after that.

One evening I was at a stoplight and when the light turned green I tried to go and the car died. I noticed the accelerator pedal was stuck to the floor. After freeing the linkage I was able to get it home. I then installed a new accelerator cable and when I took it for a test drive the accelerator got stuck and this is when the motor over-revved and after this is when I started to get a tapping. On top of this I still had issues with starting. I sent it back to Mechanic A who was still unable to get the car running right so he recommended Mechanic B.

When Mechanic B got the car I told him that the issues at the time were starting and the tapping sound. After a week with the car he called me and told me the car was ready. When I went to pick it up the car started up right away and I didn’t hear the tapping anymore. This mechanic swapped my distributor with an MSD billet distributor, replaced my spark plugs, spark plug wires and starter solenoid. On the way home once the car reached operating temperature I heard the tapping again. By the time I got home she was on the verge of overheating.

I contacted Mechanic A again and told him what was going on. He recommended upgrading the radiator and replacing the thermostat. After replacing the radiator with a big block radiator and installing a 180 thermostat, I didn’t have any more problems with overheating. But I still had the tapping sound and that’s when Mechanic A had said that it might be a piston slap.

I drove the car for another month with the tapping and then a neighbor of mine noticed the smoke. This was now the early September timeframe. I chose to attempt to tackle the valve adjustment myself and as Print Dad had mentioned I’m new to wrenching. My mistake here was not adjusting the valve in the correct order or seating the valves before attempting to adjust them. I simply started and cylinder 5 and went down the line 5, 6, 7, 8 and then moved to the other side 1, 2, 3, 4 and I just tightened them down until zero lash. After this I started her up and that’s when the motor started vibrating. I cut her off and she has only run intermittently since.

So now I still had a tapping though not as bad, a bad motor vibration, and smoking. I was then put in touch with the retired mechanic, Mechanic C. He took the car for a couple days about two weeks ago. He ran a compression test and vacuum test and said they came back fine. He said he adjusted the valves and the choke on the carb. Now what you see in the video is the current state after getting it back from Mechanic C. I spoke to Mechanic C and he wants to look at it some more when he has more time which will be after the 1st of the year.

Motor vibration: I still think the valves aren’t adjusted properly. This started after I attempted to adjust them myself and I think I over tightened them putting pressure on the cam causing the vibration.

Tapping: I’m assuming that this is still related to the valves or the lifters. I’m wondering if it would be worthwhile to go ahead and pull and inspect all the lifters and pushrods.

Smoking: This started in the warmer months so It’s not just due to the cold weather. Up close the smoke is gray/black. I also have carbon residue in my tailpipe and carbon build up on the spark plugs. Some have mentioned from the pictures of the plugs that it appears to be oily. There is one section of the plug by the post that is wet but the carbon on the post is chalky and not gummy.

So now I’m waiting for Mechanic C to look at it again.

[S code 69 13]

Since you say the tapping started with the over rev situation I'd check the push rods, you need to adjust the valves with more preload anyway so see if you have a bend one while you're in there.

 

This won't explain the smoke or over heating but it could explain the vibration. you have some sympyoms that don't tie together so one has to figure you have more than one problem. I guess fix one them move on to the next.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

Now this is just my 2cts,

But it was my engine in this condition I would pull off the top half and inspect ALL of the parts.

The cost of gaskets is less than the constant rework your doing.

On the plus side of doing it this way, You can verify that there is no coolant leak into the chambers and intake.

Toss in some new rocker nuts because of the many readjuts to them the selflocking part of them is most likely not retaining the adjustments on the valvetrain.

 

Mech C would be my choice if I couldn't do it myself, Mech A/B do not seem like they are interested in doing it correctly.

 

Looking at your pic's of the plugs, I would bet that if you smelled them you would find coolant traces with and over rich condition.

[S code 69 13]

But still, you can't have a coolant leak if you're not using water.

 

I'll shut up on this now unless I'm asked but since this is an older rebuilt 302 do what you can then run it, if you find a problem that can be fixed fix it , if you can't run it until it needs rebuilt so what. we're not talking about a numbers matching Boss 429 here, if it aint broke don't fix it, sooner or later you're going to have to rebuild it anyway.

[mymach 0]

Just a few thoughts, for what they're worth...

 

I may have missed something somewhere but do we know for sure that these are adjustable rockers and not positive-stop style? I think I would also look into the condition of the push rods for damage, straightness, and wear. Damaged or otherwise collapsing lifters could also cause the tapping noise and a rough running condition. I have also heard a noise from a mechanical fuel pump that sounds very much like a loose rocker or lifter. It occurs when the return spring under the pump arm breaks or falls out and the arm then slaps against the cam eccentric.

 

I don't recall seeing anywhere that stated for sure when the smoke was apparent out of the pipes. Under what conditions (hot, cold, idle, accelerating, etc) is the smoke worse or better, or is any change noted in the amount or color?

 

Sure appears to be a top-end issue from what I'm seeing and hearing. Long distance engine diagnosis can sure be frustrating...