Pink gas revisited

[foothilltom 33]

Ok, so I drained my tank and the gas coming out of there was bright red/pink like the stuff I saw going into my carb. (More on that in a bit).

 

I drained the fuel system and ran a line to a separate 1Gal tank of fresh/good gas. After priming the system, she started and the pinging/knocking definitely went away, but the god-awful Carb POPPING was non-stop. This is at about 1200 RPMs.

 

So the good news is the engine is no longer making that terrible racket, but something is still definitely not good (my technical diagnosis). Google research suggests that carb pop is a lean symptom, but I wonder if running all that terrible gas for 20 minutes or more yesterday may have goobered up (another technical term) my carb. Could the plugs have fouled up during that as well? They were new before this... Any ideas on the carb popping? The engine runs quieter but still awful. This is a real pisser because it was running GREAT before all of this.

 

Back to the gas tank. I called the radiator shop and the guy confirmed the sealer they use is red and in his 5 years of being in business, he hasn't heard of this. He said he'd "take care of it", but now I'm wondering how much damage this thing has caused. My fuel line continues to spew out little red bits even after running about .5 GAL of good gas through it from a clean source.

 

Grrr.

 

Tom

[Fordrevhead 29]

oh I didnt see this other pink fuel post... I just replied in the other. If you got a Holley you probably need a Power Valve (remove carb to change). Otherwise, pull a plug and see how she's running yeah.

[Print Dad 58]

Hello Tom

What type of carb do you have on her?

Holleys are real picky. Many small passages and things.

 

Because the car was running well, I don't think you need to be worried that something is broken.

 

I think it may take a little time and heat to get the plugs clean.

I would let the car idle at about 850 rpms for a good 15 minutes. If still popping, perhaps pull one or two plugs from each bank to see how they look.

 

Sometimes a fouled plug will not clean itself.

 

You could be looking at carb damage but I doubt any other issues.

 

Let us know about the carb...... Print dad

[foothilltom 33]

Hey Print Dad, the carb is most definitely a Holley. I have to stare at it closer to get the numbers, but it looks like a 650.

 

I did happen to pull all the plugs today just in case. They looked fine. I cleaned them up, sanded them, and gapped them just for fun before re-installing. Cleaned out the fuel filter one last time then tried running her again from the remote fuel tank. Still pops like the 4th of July. The pinging in the engine is definitely gone though, so that's a good sign.

 

I stared down the throat of the carb tonight and saw a consistent black film all the way throughout...almost like it was painted black. It comes off with my finger, but I imagine the carb is in rough shape now.

 

As you said, it was running GREAT before, so I don't imagine it's going to be too serious, but rebuilding a carb is actually quite a great challenge for me.

 

I'm trying real hard not to bail out and take this to a "professional", but clearly I'm not so great at the mechanical stuff. I'm not so great at any of this stuff but I'm trying hard to learn as I can.

 

I think I'll pull the carb off over the weekend and see about a rebuild. RevHead makes a good point about the fragile power valve, so I'll see about that along the way.

 

If I only would have bought a new fuel tank in the first place! Such is life.

 

Tom

[Print Dad 58]

Hello Tom,

Hold up for a bit on pulling the carb if you don't mind.

A couple of important questions.

1. - How long did you let the car run from the external

2. - Did you try and drain the carb bowls?

to do this, you can pull just one of the lower bolts on the fuel bowl. The gas will drain so place a container under it. There is quite a bit of fule in a bowl and if you didn't run too long yo could be running on the crap gas

 

3. - This part may be hard for you if you are like me: I would explain to the tank shop that the carb is meesed up. See if they will purchase a new one. This would be hard for me, but hell it is their fault and they said they would make good.

 

As for rebuilding the carbs. It is pretty easy but unless done right it won't work.

The problem with Holley's and other carbs is they have small passages that need to be soaked and blow out. I have done many and sometimes they still don't work right.

You would be surprised at how small the passages are. Things like the vent tubes for the bowls are tiny. The directions are hard to read and tiny.

The power valve is a simple unscrew and replace and this would never hurt, but you could still have issues.

 

 

When you say Popping...just what is it doing. Is the noise in the exhaust, thru the cab or inside the motor like a lifter?

 

My thinking is that it is a cab issue which could be caused by a lean or overly rich mixture. An overly rich mix which would give you the black could be the result of the bowl vent tubes gummed up.

 

That is why I suggest holding up a bit to be sure all the old gas is out of there and the motor has a chance to warm sufficiently to burn residue etc. from valves and plugs.

 

Just my thoughts........ Jim P.Dad

[foothilltom 33]

Hey Jim, I haven't pulled the carb yet, but I did buy a rebuild kit yesterday while I was out. It's a Holley 600 as it turns out. List number is written down in the garage.

 

The popping is a very loud and sharp sound, like a small firecracker. Anybody remember "lady finger" style fire crackers? Very sharp and high pitched compared to a more deep explosion. That's what it sounds like. It pops every couple of seconds and I can see the butterfly valve blowing open when it's partially closed. I didn't run it this way for more than 10 seconds because it sounds so terrible. I will definitely try draining the bowls...I didn't realize it could hold that much.

 

The radiator shop owner was pretty condescending and I just asked for my money back on the job. He said in "6 years, he's never seen this". At one point he said he can't know where I get my gas. That pissed me off. I poured out 8 oz or so of the gas that was still in the tank into a plastic pitcher to show him. It was the SAME color as the sealant. He offered to redo the sealer, but I decided to just go with a new tank. Anyway, that was pretty dissatisfying altogether.

 

The carb like I said before is really dirty/oily now. LIke a coating of tar all over. If there are small passages in there, I'd have to think they're full of crap now.

 

But I'll try draining and running with good gas before I embark on a rebuild -- my first ever.

 

Thanks,

Tom

[Print Dad 58]

Hello Tom,

A couple of other thoughts I have been having on your car.

1. - By any chance is the carb new? You have a 90 warranty. If possible, take it back and tell the people it doesn't run right. I would not go into details about the gas, just the fact that is doesn't run right. If you purchased it at a chain like Auto Zone or Advanced Auto, they should be happy to replace the carb.

 

2. - When I say empty the bowls, yeah they do hold enough gas to run the car for 10-15 minutes. That is why I think I would drain the bowls and then run the car. See if she will straighten out on her own. Bad fuel should not hurt the motor unless it is violent pops. Does the carb have electric choke? I am thinking it does. What you want to do is warm the motor and be sure the choke is fully open.

 

Trust me Tom, rebuilding the carb is not all that hard but unless it is done really well, you will have a problem. To do it right, it should be disassembled, soaked in a cleaning solvent, then blown out with air. If you do go for the rebuild, take pictures as you take things apart. Just 1 wrong gasket placement and the job is messed.

 

Now having said the gloomy stuff, often times I have just replaced things like needle and seat, power valve, accelerator pump and a few other odds and ends and have been fine. I am sure you could do all that no problem. My main concern is the small passages. I have tried using spray carb cleaner and air and it just doesn't do it.

 

Please understand I am not trying to discourage you...hell I think you have ample mechanical skills. I just want you to know that it is tricky and if possible try to avoid it.

 

So think about returning carb or try letting the motor burn off all the crap. I honestly don't think small popping will hurt the motor, just a s long as it doesn't get too violent.

 

In any case good Luck and we are here to help........ Jim

[Pakrat 1,043]

I had no idea you had another thread going on this Tom, the red crap obviously is not meant to burn and left the residue and the crap in your carb, probably some other old contaminents in the car from sitting aren't helping either. Before you tackel a rebuild or anything else here's what I suggest, go to the store and buy a spray can of seafoam. Open the buttefiles and spray down all over the inside, in fact if you have the energy to do so I would also pull all the plugs again and spray some into each cylinder while you are at it. Because this stuff literally burns off all contaminents (and as a result your exhaust is going to smoke badly until it's done) I would just do the cylinders now also, I do this to every car I change plugs on and the throttle body too. If you want though you can just do the carb now to fix the issue. I would also check your timing, I can't recall if you did anything with that yet but carb popping even on a car with normal color gas usually is due to a timing issue.

[foothilltom 33]

I'm game to try the SeaFoam stuff. Is it safe to say I hose down the carb with the carb installed and the engine NOT running? Or do I do all of this with it running?

 

I'm hoping the former as it's all I can do to keep this thing running at all. I could see it being hard to keep it running while spraying all that stuff down the throat.

 

With that said, would it be superior to just remove the carb and spray it down good, then re-install, spray the cylinders, and fire her up?

 

Thanks for the idea, Pak.

Tom

[Print Dad 58]

I had no idea you had another thread going on this Tom, the red crap obviously is not meant to burn and left the residue and the crap in your carb, probably some other old contaminents in the car from sitting aren't helping either. Before you tackel a rebuild or anything else here's what I suggest, go to the store and buy a spray can of seafoam. Open the buttefiles and spray down all over the inside, in fact if you have the energy to do so I would also pull all the plugs again and spray some into each cylinder while you are at it. Because this stuff literally burns off all contaminents (and as a result your exhaust is going to smoke badly until it's done) I would just do the cylinders now also, I do this to every car I change plugs on and the throttle body too. If you want though you can just do the carb now to fix the issue. I would also check your timing, I can't recall if you did anything with that yet but carb popping even on a car with normal color gas usually is due to a timing issue.

 

Hello Pak,

I didn't know seafoam came in a spray form. Thanks for the tip. Aslo, according to Tom, the motor was running great until this batch of gas.

I would agree that timming was an issue and still could be but it would be a coincidence that the pink gas and timming came at the same time.

 

I mention this because I respect your opinions a great deal but I don't think you have all the info. From what I understand, the motor was running very well until the gas. I too wondered why would the car pop even with the bad gas. My first thought probably like yours is the timing of the valves. I am very curious what is going on. Perhaps debris is hanging a valve? I don't quite know what to think.

 

Thanks..... Jim

 

I plan to get some seafoam spray for myself. Thanks

[Pakrat 1,043]

I think the seafoam in spray is fairly new, like within a year or so. Just follow the directions, I believe they suggest to warm the car up first, shut down then apply and restart, in your case you may need to be playing with the throttle at first since it won't idle well on it's own. There will be no harm if you need to apply it to a cold engine first instead, you may just need to do an intiial cleaninng once like that then redo it if it doesn;t all burn off.

 

As far as the timing is concerned I'm going under the assumption that it is set at the very enemic stock setting of 6* BTDC, I can't recall if it is still running on points or not and if so if they are the original or new but with normal gas under perfect circumstances that was probably just enough to get it running, it may have run well but that was mostly at idle, as I understood it this was the first real test drive so even with good gas it could have been popping back at him, we may never know that now. So since most of these cars actually seem to run best at 11 - 13* BTDC I figured there was no harm he could do by checking the timing out even though cleaning the gunk out of the carb may take care of the problem all on it's own, think of my timing suggestion as some chicken soup for the cold. With cars that are loaded with gremlins a coincidence is not a far stretch. It could be that the point gap has increased too if again he is running them still so that should be checked also as too much gap will certainly pop.

[foothilltom 33]

Hey Pak, solid advice. I will get the SeaFoam later today. FWIW, I pulled the carb last night just to prove that I could and I am going to give it a good cleaning for fun and re-install. Mess with nothing, just clean.

 

I'll then try the SeaFoam to clean out downstream from the carb. I figure the car will start right now and I should be able to goose the throttle enough to run it through the system.

 

Regarding timing, of all things, my distributor wouldn't turn. It was good and stuck. I've been putting drops of Mystery Oil down the shaft every day for 3 days in hopes that will loosen her up. I may resort to a pair of vice grips and a little tapping if necessary. In short, I have no idea where she's timed currently, but it was good enough to run the other day, so I'm going to leave that variable alone for now.

 

In any case, I'm still of the mind that my carb is *really* dirty/clogged and the explanation for the pops now that then "pinging" has stopped with good gas. If my naive cleaning doesn't do it, I'm going to try the SeaFoam. If that doesn't do it, I'll check the timing. If that doesn't do it, I think I'll try the carb rebuild.

 

I'm definitely trying to avoid real pain until I have to. I appreciate the info.

Tom

[foothilltom 33]

Oh, and interesting comment about the point gap. I *did* reset the gap before the popping starting (during the pinging episode, before I realized my gas was pink)!

 

I set the gap to the .017" according to my manual. To be honest, the points were set much closer to that originally -- and I assumed it could be resulting in my pinging (keep in mind I hadn't seen the pink gas yet).

 

I wonder if the stock gap is too wide for whatever is happening here. I guess measuring the dwell/timing/gap holistically is a good idea eventually.

 

In any case, bear in mind that I did mess with the point gap before all the popping, but well after the pinging and all the bad gas went through the carb.

 

Tom

[Print Dad 58]

Hello pakrat,

Thanks once again about the seafoam spray.

I also respect and admire your logic and the way you took the time

to explain your thinking

As you point out, the gremlins can work weird ways.

 

I guess my question would be - if the gas is bad wouldn't it just pop out the exhaust? I am trying to learn about this as I have followed the re-birth of this motor for awhile. I know pre-ignition could cause a lot of pops but I was thinking out the exhaust. It seems logical that it could be another problem that has surfaced. Perhaps even a compression test may help.

 

Perhaps you are right that maybe it is a combination of several things.

It appears Tom has been working fast and furious on the car and I'll be damned if I can figure out anything but those great ideas you suggest.

 

Thanks for your polite responses....... Print Dad

[Pakrat 1,043]

My original post I guess was a bit incomplete, I should have mentioned to check the point gap at the start in addition to the timing, that is more of what I meant about the carb popping. Now that Tom admits he already adjusted that prior I am certain that is what is causing the popping now. I don't think any of the pinging or the popping has to do directly with the bad gas which yes would usually be heard more from the exhaust than the carb. I think you point gap is the issue for the pop and your timing for the ping.

 

In my experience all these things work kinda like a symphony and because you don't know everything that has been done over the past then putting just one thing back to the way you think it should be can screw up everything. Example, lets say one day long ago someone fiddles with the carb thinking they are doing something good and it creates a new symptom, Instead of readjusting the carb they change the point gap to compensate, that creates another issue and they adjust the timing and so forth. Now at the end of the day the car may run and seem to run fine with everything running out of whack in controlled kaos but in reality it is not running efficiently or at least at maximum efficiency. Now a new person comes along, oh the gap is wrong, let's put it back to stock, suddenly the orchestra is out of sinc, everyone is playing in a different key, things sound horrible, how can that be. The only thing that can be done really is to set every single variable back to stock parameters no matter how insignificant, then try to improve on those settings one at a time until it is perfected. Even in storage for so long God only knows just how many hands have been under that hood and nudged this or bumped that over the years so trying to correct just any one item can have adverse effects.

[Print Dad 58]

Hello Pak,

Now I am feeling foolish. For some reason I did not see the little post about the points.

I was under the impression the car was running great and Tom had not done anything.

I don't know how I missed that? Blame it on old age.

 

You have been very helpful and informative. You could have just told me off and said i don't know s...from shineola. I am glad you didn't and I think you understand I am trying to help this guy.

Again..thanks for taking the time to post detail anaology of the situation. My respect level has been raised even higher..... Jim

[Pakrat 1,043]

LOL, that's what makes this forum so much better than the average one Print Dad, no one gets flamed here or told off, we are all pretty polite and courteous in exchanging ideas and we are all here to help each other with our common interest. No one is worng and there are no stupid questions. Tom is a perfect example I think, when he first came on here rebuilding his father son car he was all questions 24-7, look how he pays it forward now though, answering whenever he can and passing on the knowledge that's what it's all about, that's all I try to do. That's why I hardly go to any of the other forums anymore, too many egos and bullies. Hurting people is easy, especially on the faceless internet, helping them is in art though.:rockon:

 

 

:whistling: PS: You can always click on my reputation button anytime you like, I won't get mad.

 

BTW Tom, try soaking the dizzy in PB Blast instead for a few days then lock the vise grips on it and a few feet of pipe for leverage.