351C experts?

[69fstback 10]

Sorry about all the questions lately. So I have a 351C that I want to build. This is what i am thinknig of doing to it as of now. I have most of the parts already.

 

My plan is to get into the 11's I have a 3000 stall with a c4 and 3.89 gears.

 

393 stroker kit. Cast crank forged rods forged pistons

i have the copy cats of chi heads pro-form (got them from a friend $300 brand new) They have 72cc chambers and are alloy. MAchince shop said they were pretty good looking for 10.5 to 1 compression pump 93

harland sharp roller rockers

intake either a copy of the parker or an edelbrock air gap or weiand xcellerator?

850 Dp

windage tray

cam choice? Hydralic roller if money is good flat tappet if not so good

choices? comps magnum 230 at 50 with 578 lift duration at 290

or

lunati braket master 234 at 50 intake 244 exhaust at 50 562 intake lift 588 exhasut lift with duration at 300/310

or

ANY IDEAS

Sorry for a long one. IF you have any ideas of building a cleveland to go 11's in a 1969 mach 1 please help

[dchandler60 10]

69fstback, Didn`t know if you knew about this website http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/ But this is where I went for help with my Cleveland, thier are plenty of experts on that forum that can guide you. Hope this helps, David

[6T9Mach1 12]

I dont think that you will be able to make 11's with that combo. I did a quick desktop dyno of your combo, and assuming that those heads flow as well as CHI 4v heads, that motor will end up making about 500 hp. By the time you factor in for the parasitic loss of your transmission and rear end (probably about 20%, and maybe more) you end up in the 400 hp range. Pushing 3700 lbs or so puts you in the low 12's.

 

I think if you would go with a Vic Jr. intake and the next size bigger cam you might make 11's; it all depends on what this car is going to be used for. If it is going to be a street car I think that you need to stroke it further to get more displacement to make the power you need. If it is a strip only car then you could make your goal with a bigger cam and a different intake choice. Increasing compression would gain you hp but if you want to run pump gas you could only go to about 11:1. Lightening the car will help as well.

[coz 108]

IMO

 

- return the 393 and go to a 408 stroker kit

- ditch the Pro Comps (and NEVER mention them on the 335 series forum)

- either get a angle job on the iron heads or look at CHI 3V (pricey)

- If you have the funds for CHI 3V's look at their matching intakes

- None of those intakes are all that great. Look for a Torker II (great mid-range power) or even a Street Dominator if you can find one. I pushed over 612HP with a Street Dominator but could not fit it under the shaker. I make 587hp with the TorkerII.

- Another great intake is the Blue Thunder. See Holman Moody for one. He has several versions - all are bad ass.

- If possible go hydraulic roller rocker. Just an easier setup with less tweaking and headaches.

- 850DP is fine. Remember strokers and C's really need to breathe. I run a 950 Pro-systems carb jetted to the max. I run rich and foul plugs every 6 months or so but the mid to top end power is amazing. Every car I take on gets a 2-3 car lead up to about a 1/8 mile then I just FLY past them.

 

I'm willing to share my build specs if you would like to see them. I ask that you not spread them around. My engine was build by Mark McKeown who is known for nasty Cleveland engines. He is a wealth of information and you can reach him at www.mmeracing.com.

 

I also highly recommend http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

[6T9rustang 11]

Hey Coz,

what heads are you running on your motor?

[coz 108]

Original CC 4V heads with a 4 angle job done by Mark. I believe (and will confirm) they flow around 375

[6T9rustang 11]

Original CC 4V heads with a 4 angle job done by Mark. I believe (and will confirm) they flow around 375

 

 

That's a healthy set of lungs!!

[69fstback 10]

So what do you sugesst Abotu heads? i have 2v and a 4v set that all need to be rebuilt. I laso have the pro-form ones the copies. If i have work done on the pro-form it will probally be as good as iron and cost less right? Or NO

[coz 108]

Those Pro-forms are Chinese knock offs of the CHI heads so they may work fine. They are certanly lighter than the iron heads. I think the cost to have them cleaned up, bowl job, angle job and guts installed would be the same cost as having the 2v/4v heads done. So if you have them then use them just don't bring them up on other forums. The Chinese do not recognize the patents on those heads and that really pisses off alot of people. Also, I've heard about tolerance and quality control issues with those heads but having never used or seen them it may be another slam on them by Americans pissed about the knock off status.

 

Mark confirmed - 378cfm flow on my heads.....

 

69fstback - I will PM you a breakdown of my build. The only thing that is not spelled out is the actual grind Mark did. He's funny about that....

[69fstback 10]

Thanks coz as of right now i have a 351W looknig to get more power out of a 351C Hopefully push 11's Thanks

[6T9Mach1 12]

You can get plenty of power out of a Windsor as well. If you already have a 351w you might want to check out this 418 stroker build; 670 hp on pump gas. http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0702phr_budget_418ci_windsor/index.html

[coz 108]

I have to agree with 6T9. If I had a choice I'd build a Windsor up unless I had a lot invested in the Cleveland. Clevelands make rightious power and there is a certain coolness factor running the big C but the W offers many more aftermarket items and can make power lower in the RPM range. Shoulda, coulda, woulda - I would go with the Windsor build. 408 with a stock block, 418, 427 or even 434 with a Dart or World block. That will get you into 600hp+

[69fstback 10]

Ya i was recently thinking that. I am hoping that my dart pro 1 195cc can get me enough flow to get 550hp on my 351W if i go in that direction

[6T9Mach1 12]

Those heads should be fine for 550 bhp...if you want much more though they will probably have to be ported.

[69fstback 10]

Do you guys have any ideas what combo will make 550 or alil more hp and torque 408W. Here is what i have already

 

dart pro 1 195cc

edelbrock performer rpm (change or use?)

 

So any builds that should net about that probally a hydralic roller cam. Any suggestions?

[69fstback 10]

So after thinknig about this for awhile her is what i came up with for a 550 hp motor hopefully close to

 

408 stroker cast crank eagle h beams forged pistion

11.1 compression

dart pro 1 195 cc (with $500 of port work if budget allows)

harland sharp roller rockers

850 holley

edelbrock performer rpm air-gap OR vic jr. (still undecided)

mechnical water pump with electric drive kit

cam??

 

236/242@.050 with 602/608 both are xtreme enegry mechanical rollers

Or

248/254@.050 with 614/621

 

What do you guys think? Thanks you guys are big helps

[coz 108]

Look at 205cc AFR or CHI heads for comparison. A 408 needs to breath....

[69fstback 10]

The proplem I have is budget so I was hoping to only spend $500 on the heads I Have Everyone I talked to say they flow just as good as afr 185 so with some port work hopefully up to the 205's Any suggestion on the intake or cam. (mostly stop light to stoplight) not street racing just showing off

[6T9Mach1 12]

It seems to me that you need to decide which direction you want to take this car

 

1) An 11 second car

2) A stop light to stop light street car

 

To get to the hp level you would need to get into the 11's you will have to use a cam that needs to be way up in the rpms; a cam that will not perform very well on the street.

 

I ran your combos on my desktop dyno and cam out with 512 hp @ 5500 rpms and 538 ftlbs @ 4000 for the first cam...a monster of a street motor. The second combo came in at 522 hp @ 6000 rpms and 518 ftlbs @ 4500 rpms.

 

You can make an 11 second street car; it will just be a dog at normal street rpms and wont be a good stop light to stop light car, IMO (an 11 second car isnt going to hit its power band till around 3000 rpms). I think that your first cam you have listed and an Edelbrock RPM Airgap intake would be a very nice street combo. I would stay away from the Vic Jr. intake unless you are shooting for that 11 second car; a Vic Jr. will not perform very well at everyday street rpms.

[69fstback 10]

Ok thanks. YA i will only be at the drap strip maybe once or twice a month and want to pull a off a respective time but mostly street light to light.

 

 

6t9MACH1 Can you maybe play with desktop dyno on the 408 with different stuff to see what looks to work best. I never had that if it is to much work I understand just want to buy the right stuff once. Thanks

[bnickel 10,004]

here's another Popular hotrodding link to check out.

 

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0712phr_complete_408_stroker_engine_build/index1.html

 

i helped Steve pick the cam for this one, in fact, he used the exact cam i recommended and he just got that big fairlane to break into the 11's, barely but he did it. he said this engine has deccent street manners as well, it's no stocker but it won't buzz your brains out either. i'd follow his build as closely as possible but using your heads. the Victor JR will work fine on the street with a healthy 408 and won't give up much on the bottom end to the Air Gap.

[69fstback 10]

That does look like a very good. build. I wonder how much my will make with the dart heads?