302 Engine Advice Please!

[TNT69 10]

I am new to this group and this is my first post. I've had a 69 Grande since I was 16 (now 31) and drove it through high school and college. Now I am pulling it out of storage to fix it up like I have always wanted.

 

I was hoping any of you could give me some advice on

> parts to consider. Since you are all Mustang fans I figured this would be

> a good place to start.

>

> First let me tell you my plans for the car. I want to build it to

> drive for fun only, not a daily driver so efficiency is not an issue.

> It's a 1969 so emissions are not an issue either. I will mainly drive

> it to rod shows, occasional parades, and 300 mile max trips for car shows.

>

> The engine is a 302 almost bone stock 2 bbl carb, single exhaust

> (rebuild 40k miles ago). That said, I plan to keep the engine

> basically stock, stock cam etc. I am thinking about running headers,

> a 4bbl carb, a new ignition system and dual exhaust. I want plenty of

> low end tire smoking power with a decent upper end. My questions for

> you:

>

> 1) Carb- how big is to big, I am leaning toward the Edlebrock Thunder

> AVS 650 or the Holley street avenger 600(?). The classic debate on

> which is better. I like the Elelbrock mainly because of it ease of

> use and the adjustable secondary's. I don't want to choke on the low

> end so I don't want "to much carb" and I'm new to this so I want

> something easy to use.

> 1a - manifold - haven't given this much thought. I figure the

> Edlebrock performer, dual plane would work fine for my needs. I

> suppose there is an equivalent holley to this as well.

>

> 2) Ignition, I really don't know what to use here. Is there a major

> difference in the "box" MSD systems and the HEI type I have seen that

> appear to all be contained in the distributor or the pertronix points

> replacement. I want plenty of spark to light everything up but am

> overwhelmed with the choices.

>

> 3) Headers, what type? Are ceramic coated headers really much better

> and are they worth the cost? I don't know much about running headers

> and don't want to compromise low end power and/or throttle response.

> Basic hooker headers run around $150 from what I can find. Cermaic

> versions are closer to $400, however I have found some that are in the

> mid $200. I'm not sure what to look for so I don't know what's a good

> deal. Several people I talk to recommend strongly on getting cermanic coated headers.

>

> 4) Exhaust - kit or no kit, I have seen some kits online that say they

> fit Mustangs. One I am leaning toward is the Magnaflow stainless dual

> exhaust kit for just under $500. Is stainless really worth the cost?

> Similar non-stainless kits are under $200. Or would it be better to

> have a muffler shop do the entire exhaust. Keep in mind I don't have

> a welder (however I'm told some muffler shops will weld it up for you

> after I install it).

>

> If you can offer any advice I would appreciate it. I'm trying to do

> my homework but I figure going to some with a little experience is

> never a bad idea. I have a budget of around $1500 for this work and

> that includes a little bit of engine dress up (valve covers, new air

> cleaner etc.) and new rear springs.

>

[ForceFed70 14]

Welcome!

 

Lots of questions, and the replys will differ as there isn't always a clear answer.

 

Here's my answers anyways:

 

1) Carb. Go with a 650cfm if you want to leave room to grow, 600cfm if you think intake, carb, and exhaust will be the bulk of your mods. As for which brand, Holley for tuneability and max power, edelbrock for install and forget.

 

1a) I'd go with a performer RPM or performer RPM air-gap. The regular performer is little more than an aluminum copy of the factory cast iron intake.

 

2) For your plans, an MSD seems like overkill. I'd start with a pertronix, they are cheap and easy to install. Then if you want to move up from there you havn't wasted alot of time or money. The pertronix is a huge improvement over stock.

 

3) Personally, I'd go with a shorty style header. My long tubes are a real pain in the butt. I need to pull the engine to get them in/out, they heat up the engine compartment too much, and they cause problems with power steering boots, etc. Shorties are so much easier to work with and you will only loose 2 or 3HP over long tubes. Ceramic coated are nice because they will always look good. Headers have a tendency to rust quickly, and ceramic paint is the only paint that seems to last and look good.

 

4) I wouldn't bother with a kit. Buy some quality mufflers and headers, then take to a local exhaust shop and ask them to install a new exhaust using those components.

 

Now for a suggestion: To get the most out of your mods, also consider changing the cam if your budget will allow.

[*JackBurton* 0]

hiya welcome to the boards I'm going to tackle your post and try and help.

 

1. Carb: 600CFM holley don't need any more than that. Another option is the carter style carb from Edlebrock. Holley has a great online system to determine what type of carb you need.

 

http://www.holley.com/types/Street%20Performance%20-%20Traditional.asp

 

1a WEIAND STEALTH: works great from idle through the rpm band.

http://www.holley.com/8020.asp

 

2. Ford Duraspark: can get the dizzy and the module from the bone-yard or your local autozone. Here is a write up on the subject.

http://members.cox.net/joetrojan/

 

3. Headers - I don't have ceramic but I wish I did. My understanding is that it keeps engine bay heat down. I went with shorty style headers from headman. Some guys here run long-tube headers and others run hi-po manifolds. I've heard that long-tubes sometimes have clearance issues under out mustangs.

 

4. Exhaust - kit Magnaflow 2.5" kit stainless. Performance Peddler sells them. I'm not sure the promotion is still going but try "Ebayrocks" in the code field for a discount price. Part number 15816

 

http://www.performancepeddler.com/SC_output.asp?Prodtype=Exhaust+System&VYear=1969&VMake=FORD&sCtrl=Y&ProdMfg=Magnaflow&VModel=MUSTANG

 

MISC - might want to consider upgrading your cooling system while you're at it. Hope this helps.

 

Sean

[Thunder Kiss 13]

Hi TNT69,

 

Your plans all sound fairly good for a regular driver.

 

What you plan on doing is pretty much what I have now. I went 600cfm vac sec Holley, Edelbrock performer, custom tri-y headers and dual exhaust. I did it during a full engine rebuild and added GT40P heads and very mild cam too.

 

Before you spend a cent though, I would do a compression test to make sure everything is in order internally otherwise your efforts will be wasted.

I want plenty of low end tire smoking power with a decent upper end.

Unless you get your 302 stroked all of these changes you're talking about wont give you any extra low end, they'll just give you more up higher in the rpm range.

[djs69stang 10]

I have a 302 with 650 cfm Holley 4bbl, pertronix, edlebrock intake, ceramic shelby tri-y's (everyone I know recommends the ceramic, the tri-ys aren't as big as the hooker or hedman but they do cost less and they do deliver) into 2.5" SS exhaust with flowmasters, so, I sound much like everyone here in recommending the same stuff. I would also agree on the compression check and mild cam upgrade. Remember this though, you can get lots of HP in the engine but you also need to get it to the wheels. Be sure to check what's in the rear end for gears. I have 2.75's which are a great cruising gear but aren't much fun in the giddy up department. (My plans are 3.55's this spring)

[bnickel 10,004]

ok, i'll throw in my advice here.

 

carb- either 600 cfm e'brock performer (not thunder series) or a 625 raod demon jr carb, i have a 625 road demon (not the jr) on my 351 and it is the best carb i've ever had and i've had them all. another option and probably the best if you want overall reliability would be the good old autolite 4100 carb, you can get a really nice one rebuilt by Holley from advance auto parts for less than 200 bucks including the core charge.

 

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?mfrcode=HO2&mfrpartnumber=645019&parttype=26&ptset=A

 

intake-for your needs the E'brock Performer will be just fine but the performer RPM or Weiand Stealth would also be good choices if you want more later on down the road.

 

headers-hedman ceramic coated shorties, best bang for the buck in a ceramic coated header that has good ground clearance and no issue with other parts of the car.

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1∂=HED%2D88408&N=700+4294923429+400143+4294908331+4294840126+4294908282+4294925082+115&autoview=sku

 

or flowtech long tubes

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1∂=BIG%2D32102FLT&N=700+4294923429+400130+4294908331+4294839039+4294908282+4294840126+4294925082+4294880275+302953+115&autoview=sku

 

 

exhaust-2.25" with your choice of mufflers for the current application, 2.5" if you want to get more powere from a future engine combo. have a local exhaust shop do the work, ask around at car shows, cruise ins, etc. to see who around you does the best work (don't use a big cahin shop like Midas or Meineke unless of course they get a lot of recommendations from the sources above) usually the local guys and the Mom and Pop places do the best work. i don't like exhaust kits because they usually don't have tight clearances and hang really low, the shop i use tucks everything up nicely to the body and nothing on my system hangs below the frame rails

 

ignition-pertronix, mallory E-spark, Accell points eliminator, Crane XR-I and the like are all good for getting rid of the points. i'm using the mallory unlite conversion in mine, same as the E-spark just the older version, the Accell points elimniator is also just a mallory unilite as well (they're both owned by Mr gasket now) Pertronix is probably the easiest to find, even most big chain Parts stores carry them which is nice if you ever need replacement parts. (i always keep a set of points and condensor handy when i go on long trips, well when the car was driveable anyway)

 

i'd also recommend a hotter coil as well, like an MSD Blaster coil.

 

 

my specific recommendations for your car given the info you have provided and assuming this all you want to do to it.

 

carb-either of the choices i gave would be good here

intake-E'brock performer

headers-hedman shorties

exhaust-2.25" from local shop

ignition-pertornix with MSD blaster coil

 

other recommendations-better rear gears in the 3.25-3.50 range, i run a 3.25 gear and it's a good all around gear. this will help a lot with your desire better low end grunt. shift kit for the trans (assuming you have an automatic)

[TNT69 10]

You guys are awesome, lots of good information here. First let me say that the current distriburator I have might be going out so I was thinking of replacing it, however pertronix might fix the problem. When the engine was overhauled the dist. was not changed and is the orginal.

 

I have considered a cam change but wasn't sure I wanted to go that deep. Now after reading your comments I might need to re-evaluate that. How hard of a job is it? Anybody got a "how-to" for this. AND what cam would be a good place to start. I noticed that JEGs sells an edelbrock kit with a cam, carb and intake as a matched set.

 

I'm fairly convinced that ceramic headers are the way to go (heat and looks), now to choose shorties, or full lengh. I have a 302 and a C4 so I don't think clearance is much of an issue (also no power steering). I'll keep mulling that over....

 

I have upgraded the cooling to a 4 core radiator out of a 429 setup with a larger fan (someday I will go electric fan for parade cruising).

 

I haven't checked the rear end ratio but I plan to. I'm guessing it pretty low geared (high number ), maybe 3.XX, because it really wings up at freeway speed.

 

bnickle,

Why not the thundar series?

[70Coupe 10]

the only info i have right now is to defintely go with shorties, as *Jack Burton* said, long tubes hve clearance issues. i dont know the make of my headers, cuz i bought the car with them on, but the bottom tubes that are supposed to be round, have been smashed flat from going over bumps and such. so yeah shorties would defintely be a good idea. sorry its the only info i got know, in the process of buildin my engine too, soo i might have more info later.

[Pakrat 1,043]

Just for the record I have never had one issue with long tube headers, clearance or otherwise and I have a 302 also.

 

The rest of the list includes a healthy CAM, Weind Stealth Intake, 4V 600cfm Holley Carb, pertronix ignitor with flame thrower coil, Accell distributor, true double roller timing chain, 9mm Bosch wires with platinum plugs and 351W heads.

 

EDIT: Almost forgot the 2.5" Magnaflow Stainless dual exhaust kit.

[burritoboi5 10]

Hey guys. I'm going to be pulling my engine within the next month or two hopefully depending on how things go. But first I want to get all the parts lined up. I'm looking at basically replacing all the same parts, carb, intake, exhaust. But was looking to get some more power out of my stock 302. And the edelbrock power packages looked appealing.

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=EDL%2D2091&autoview=sku

 

I like that they come with new aluminum cylinder heads because from what I've read I really do need hardened valve seats to run the car on unleaded gas (something that I find necessary). Just wondering what you all thought of this kit? BTW net horse I want is around 300-325 without too too agressive of a cam. Is this the way to go and even realistic?

[ForceFed70 14]

I think the edelbrock power package is a great option. And I'm surprised at how cheap it is!

 

You'd still need to buy a carb and exhaust system tho.

[*JackBurton* 0]

Burritoboi5

My thoughts on engine kits:

 

First as you can tell by my posts a master mechanic I am not lol. The kit runs $1695 -IMO something needs to give to meet that price point. I remember somewhere on VMF there was a link that talked about that kit not making its advertised HP. When shopping for my parts, I looked at other people's setups. I noticed very few folks that went with matched engine kits.

 

Personally I want to car that has some go and something that I can take up highway 1(PCH) --so I referenced owners that were into the same thing. I noticed a lot of Weiand Stealth Intakes, Duraspark II dizzy, and 351w motors.

 

Off the top of my head:

 

AFR Heads: $1400

Intake: $100-$150

Cam: $100 don't forget springs

Timing Chain: ???

 

I really feel that if you spend $1600+ for the kit a couple hundred more you could set yourself up with some really nice stuff.

 

Pakrat:

Header clearance- I've read so much about issues with long tubes I'm glad someone had them go right. On the flip side long-tube headers will bolt right up to the Magnaflow kit with little adjustment.

 

TNT69:

The best thing about these forums is that you can find tried and true combos. Between 1969stang.com, VMF, and stangnet you should be able to come up with plenty of information on the subject. Make sure you also note what parts/kits people are staying away from and why. That information is just as important.

[ForceFed70 14]

I think the big reasons for why people don't have matching engine parts is because not many people plan ahead enough to buy everything at once. Usually it's an exhaust here, a carb there, etc...

 

Also, there's alot to be said for "Flavor of the day". Nowadays everyone wants AFR's, a few years ago it was TFS, and before that....

[burritoboi5 10]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm no master mechanic, heck I'm only 18. But from what I've read and from what I've heard talking to other people and researching engine building the recurring theme has been that a well matched bottom and top end of an engine are the best way to make power. That's really the only reason I was looking at the edelbrock kit. I just want to make sure I get a cam and cylinder head combo that complement eachother and work nicely together.

[bnickel 10,004]

absolutely nothing wrong the e'brock power package. some people still prefer e'brock heads to AFR's even, i think one of the main reasons is that they aren't always on backorder and the quality control is better. nothing says you even have to run aluminum heads, in fact unless you're running at least 9.5:1 compression or preferably 10:1 you might actually be better off with cast heads like World Windsor (sr or jr) or Roush 180 or 200 heads (the roush heads are a slightly improved world head) because the thermal efficiency of the engine goes way down when running aluminum heads and low compression, that's why i'd prefer to 10:1 with aluminum heads.

[Pakrat 1,043]

And don't rule out that you can have hardened valve seats put into your exisiting heads as well if you need to spend cash elsewhere. It's sounding like you may not be able to do all this yourself so don't forget that you will need money for labor as well and that ain't cheap. Most of the stuff is bolt on for the most part but a Cam can be tricky to install.

 

Just so you know depending on how many miles your car has there can be quite a build up of lead from the old gas protecting your stock valve seats still and it's not hard to through in the occasional bottle of lead substitute in your gas now and then as a alternative. Not that I don't recommend hardened valve seats but I get the impression you have been somewhat scared by some of what you might have read and you do have other options besides new heads.

 

BTW Jack, my driver side header is unlike any I have seen before and it's design makes a big difference in the reason it fits so well I think, the Power Steering doesn't even need the relocation bracket with it.

[pile_53574 0]

Best bang for your buck, My opinion Edelbrock RPM package, everything matched, and fairly easy to install everything!!

[70Coupe 10]

Just for the record I have never had one issue with long tube headers, clearance or otherwise and I have a 302 also.

so how come your long tubes dont have clearance problems, but mine do? Then again, i guess it depends on the manufacturer who created the headers. but mine a so flat on the bottom tubes, to the point of being level with the framerails, that it aint even funny.

2 other things, adybody got any good advice on decent headers for a 351W, nice price, bang for the buck type of deal. and the other thing, is how many of you have seen the 429 460 headers, with the crossover tube underneath, now THOSE would be a bitch i would think.

[Pakrat 1,043]

so how come your long tubes dont have clearance problems, but mine do? Then again, i guess it depends on the manufacturer who created the headers. but mine a so flat on the bottom tubes, to the point of being level with the framerails, that it aint even funny.

2 other things, adybody got any good advice on decent headers for a 351W, nice price, bang for the buck type of deal. and the other thing, is how many of you have seen the 429 460 headers, with the crossover tube underneath, now THOSE would be a bitch i would think.

 

It could be any number of things I guess, maybe yours reach down further, maybe your car sits lower, maybe you take speed bumps way too fast, who knows. All I know is mine fit like a glove with just one small dent near the housing on the drivers side and they have never scraped the ground.

[burritoboi5 10]

Yeah, I just don't want to go through an entire rebuild and then find out I've blown some cylinder heads/ruined the seals. As far as the machining I still need to find a competent shop here. But I've talked to my friends at NAPa and am not too concerned about the cam install. I did however start stripping down the front of the car tongiht though and found that there may have been some damage previously. Frame rails look fine but the inner fender panel is very wavy. I'll probably just replace it once I get the engine out because it only is a 45 dollar piece but what do you guys think of it?

[Pakrat 1,043]

Well it is either badly crumpled or someone put a crap load of nasty sealer or undercoating or something over the surface to look like that. Most of the grooves aren't even visible. Mine was recently completely smoothed out so here is how it should look.

 

[burritoboi5 10]

Yeah, I think I'm just going to replace it since the part itself is cheap, and because when I run my hands on both sides I can feel that the metal itself is actually warped.

[Truck 12]

Sign of fire? That's the first thought that comes to my mind. Are your wire(s) new? (Wiring harnesses, etc?))

[PaleRider 12]

Here is what I got on my 302 1970. Would not change a thing:

 

1. 289 Performaer Intake

2. 600 Holley - electric choke

3. MSD ready to run distributor

4. Hooker Comps - Ceramic - No clearance issue at all - look sweet

5. Magnaflows exhaust kit

 

Car runs great.

[burritoboi5 10]

Well guys your input has been awesome this far and I've been coming to you from as I learn new information from a How to book on rebuilding small block fords. And what i came across today on the airplane was the Summit Racing 302 block. It costs about 500 and I would need a new crank or to machine to lip off the crank I have now but What I don't want to do is spend the same amount of money getting my stock block machined oversized/cleaned/honed and all that when for a hundred dollars or so more I could have had a brand new block. What do you all think my best bet is? BTW I pull the engine or atleast heads next week to see if it is even possible to bore it any further ( there is evidence of a previous rebuild). Any input would be great, thanks

 

Steve K.

 

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SES%2D5%2D60%2D04%2D200&autoview=sku