Help for 69 mach 1 alignment

[Bishop1911 0]

Hello all.  I am coming over here from a recommendation as I am looking for some help with an ongoing issue I have been working on for a bit.

 

Here is a link to another forum (hope that is ok) and all the responses.   There is so much that typing it over again would be a lot of typing so here it is.

 

Any help and suggestions are always welcome.

 

Someone suggested there were a couple people specifically that may have additional input.

 

https://www.vintage-mustang.com/threads/trouble-getting-69-mach-1-aligned.1181253/

 

Thank you.

[dream car 12]

  Welcome to the 69stang forum Bishop

Could you take a simple wheelbase measurement, measure the center of the front wheel to center of the rear wheel. On both side.  Make sure steering wheel is centered.  Are both side identical ?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Since the thread on VMF wasn't getting anywhere, I suggested that Bishop come over here and let 69Stang's collective brain power help. To move this along, I will give a very brief summary: the problem is that the drivers side wheel hits the front valence. The drivers fender is maybe 1/2" too far back judging from pictures of the hood and fender, even though the door gaps are supposedly correct. The drivers tire is 1" closer to the front valence than the passenger side. The drivers shock tower was cracked and welded. Alignment hasn't been adequate to correct the tire hitting the valence.

The car is new to him, and since the hood/fender and tire/valence issues didn't come that way from the factory we can assume that it has been in an accident, then poorly repaired or maladjusted. Does that about cover it Bishop?

[Bishop1911 0]

I can do that after work.  I have 2 long days starting today and then 2 shorter ones.

I will take and post as soon as I can.  Thank you.

 

[Bishop1911 0]

And yes that about covers it, however it was looked at by a frame and body guy and he said he spent an hour looking it over snd saw no evidence of an accident.

 

It is always possible, but letting you know a professional has checked it and said he didnt believe it was.  For what it is worth  

[det0326 179]

Any sheet metal that might have been replace on the drivers side with after market panels could cause this issue. Check the length of all the panels on that side with the other side to see if there are any differences. I had an after market door once that was too short. DreamCar is right that would be my first move is to measure the wheel base on both sides, if the drivers side comes up short because the caster is set negative then check panels. 

[Bishop1911 0]

Ok, got home and did some measurements.  All were checked twice or more with a second set of eyes.

 

The results are telling, but confusing.....

 

Door top 45" each

Middle door, 51 1/4" center door length

Fenders from top back where trim of windshield meets to end of fender, each is same at 61 1/2"

Center wheel to rear wheel driver side 109"
Passenger 108"

Center front wheel to center front wheel  60.5"

Driver side tire to front valence clearance space  2"

Passenger side tire front valence clearance space. 3 "

 

So basically all panels are matching size, somehow the driver side wheel is an inch further from the back wheel to the front.....

 

Thoughts from here?

[Brian Conway 264]

See comment #5 by Brian Conway from the VMF post.  Additional comments regarding a strut rod adj. approach should be explored ?  Brian

[Bishop1911 0]

I see the comment, but I am not sure we can adjust it more using that.  I asked that and was told that it keeps changing the geometry and whatever else, so it was maxed out.  

 

I am being told that shimming it may be the answer.  The drivers side shock tower is "twisted" so that it may need to be shimmed out.  Not sure how much clearance that will give, but I will ask.

I am relaying messages between multiple sources so if something doesnt make sense please let me know.

 

 

 

[Brian Conway 264]

A picture of the forward portion of the strut rod showing the adj. would be good.  The question is aimed at forum members and as owners of 69 Mustangs they share a common knowledge around these cars and maybe able to shed some light in this area.  Unlike other model years the strut rod actually adjusts caster by moving the lower control arm.  A 69 Strut rod is 26 & 5/8's " long.  How long is yours ? Brian 

[Bishop1911 0]

That is a good question.  I will have to check.  

 

However i can tell you these are the upgraded strut rods from street or track.  

[Bishop1911 0]

I will have to check tomorrow and post as it is too dark and not enough good lighting in garage.

[Casgar 21]

6 hours ago, Bishop1911 said:

I am being told that shimming it may be the answer.  The drivers side shock tower is "twisted" so that it may need to be shimmed out.  Not sure how much clearance that will give, but I will ask.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the surface where the bolts for the control arms are should be in line with the frame rails if looking from above. On my car the passenger side have the rear hole pulled outwards ~1" and the front hole ~1/2". For me that is way too much twist to be shimmed so I'll have to replace the shock tower. If your tower is less twisted it might be possible to fix with shims.

[RogerC 136]

Quote

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the surface where the bolts for the control arms are should be in line with the frame rails if looking from above.

Yup, should be parallel.

The wheelbase being 108" and his left side measuring 109" and have a twisted shock tower sounds like the problem. I don't think shimming is going to fix being an inch out though. Maybe a frame shop can square it up.

[Bishop1911 0]

I will try to get a good pic and double check the mounting points on upper control arms.  I actually did check that yesterday and it honestly didnt seem very far off if at all.

 

This is all very confusing.

Here is my thoughts.

 

If i keep chasing this problem and cant get it aligned for my wife to use for the next year before I start to tackle other things, I can start to dismantle and strip down to prep for metal work and send to a shop sooner.  Start working on it over winter.

 

I just wanted her to be able to drive and enjoy it a little as a driver before we did some major repair and work on it.  She has put maybe 30 miles on it.

 

 

 

[Bishop1911 0]

And another question is since we know that shock tower had work done to it and not correct work, is it possible the holes foe the upper control arms were put in wrong position?  

 

Is there a way to verify that?  Guessing i can match up to other side measurements but who knows if that side is right. 

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I keep going back to the fact that the drivers fender is maybe 1/2" too far back judging from pictures of the hood and fender, even though the door gaps are good and the doors and fenders are the same lengths. The drivers tire is 1" closer to the front valence, and the wheel centerlines are 1" longer on the drivers side. At least that correlates.

So what could cause that? I can see the shock tower causing all kinds of problems with the position of the wheel, but how could it affect the position fender/hood? Its like the car is shaped like a parallelogram instead of a rectangle. Any thoughts on ways to check this? His frame guy says it "looks straight". 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

It's hard to determine what's going on with those photo's.  Some of the strut rods might help.  For some reason they might have adjusted the drivers wheel far forward with the strut rod to get enough positive caster.  If so, then you have to find out why, shock tower issue, upper control arm issue, lower control arm mount issue, etc.  Also, is the rear axle installed correctly?

Probably unrelated, but, what's going on with those upper control arms?  I've seen those bushings before, but they are not normal on 1969 Mustangs.

[Brian Conway 264]

All possible area's that need a good look...   Early on in the VMF discussion Hemikiller pointed out that the UCA was not correct.  In that same discussion Bishop posted this picture of the in correct UCA.  Obviously, to me, the spindle and  ball joint are out of alignment.  Seem that way to anyone else ?  As of today has the UCA been replaced ?  Speculation; if the UCA and ball joint are collapsing forward the LCA would need to be pulled forward just to line up with the UCA ?  Brian

[Bishop1911 0]

I will reply more later after work

 

 

But the upper control arms have been replaced with street or track adjustables.

 

 

[Bishop1911 0]

Tomorrow I have an earlier day.

 

I will be able to put up on jack stands and take wheels off and take pics and measurements if needed.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Yeah, you need to look closer at it.  Take measurements side to side and be certain everything is symmetrical before throwing more parts at it.

[RPM 1,190]

I "think" your twisted shock tower is the basis of your issues, and would be repair job 1 to me. Because of the out of position shock tower, (which throws off the UCA) the109" wheel base is needed to get your caster close. 

I've been wrong before.

[Bishop1911 0]

4 hours ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

Yeah, you need to look closer at it.  Take measurements side to side and be certain everything is symmetrical before throwing more parts at it.

I agree with that.  To this point there isnt anything i have spent that I wouldnt have at some point anyway because i wanted to upgrade suspension and all that at some point, just wasnt hoping now.  Either way, we are at the point that if I cant get this figured out without it being a major thing from here, we may just start the disassemble this winter and start taking her apart and dealing with any metal issues we have to.

 

Remove the engine and trans, maybe do a cleanup and refresh on  those, not a whole rebuild tho, considering swapping the old amx trans for something lighter and better, and remove all the interior and send it to the shop to have the metal work done.

 

Part of the issue I will have I believe is finding a good place to do it that will still be somewhat reasonable.  We live in a remote southern coastal section of oregon, so there isnt much close for at least a few hours.

 

Makes it challenging for sure.

 

I hope to try to do as much myself as I can, including some body work, body fitting, all the interior.  Do the engine and trans refresh, etc.

 

I cant weld and dont want to start so I need a place to repair it properly.  Then eventually a place to do a decent paint job.

If anyone knows anyone in the area please let me know.

Anyway, just got home from work and it is dark and lighting out there is not good. Have a shorter day tomorrow so will reread all these and then try to get some pics and measurements done.

Thanks all.

[dream car 12]

Your passenger side measurement is on the dot.  Ford spec for 1969 Mustang is 108 inch.

Could you take pictures from underside looking up, I like to see the strut adjusting nuts positions reference to the thread. Both side passenger, and driver side for comparison.