Starting/Electrical System Issue

[JayEstes 172]

Almost embarrassed to post this one, but I have to admit that I am stumped. 

Configuration:

• 302 V8 coupe, mostly stock rebuild
• upgraded alternator (powermaster ~75A)
• Original Stock ignition switch & NSS switch
• Stock voltage regulator
• Pertronix Ignition / coil
• New battery as of April this year
• Thermal choke, stock carb, new original style fuel pump
• Original harnesses (refurbed by midlife)

Strange signature - history of events:

Car hasn't been driven  much over corona virus days.  Fire it up to go see a friend, runs drives fine.  Go to leave, solenoid clicks, no-start.  Jump it, drive it 20min at highway speeds, no problems, stop at advance auto to check battery (good), asks me to start and it starts fine, run at 2000 rpm for a few min to check charging system (good), turn it off.  Discuss, try to start and wont even click solenoid.  Had to jump it to go home.  At home I check electrical grounds.  I have one from battery to chassis (non-stock), another in firewall for starter - both kind of loose, I clean, lube & tighten, but no change.  ground from engine block to alternator is tight on both ends.

I have noticed that I don't have radio or internal lights or fan box during no-click starts.  I have headlights/domelights though.

I swap out the solenoid, and no change.  Next I dive into fuse block, pull it from wall and clean all fuses, apply anti-corrosion, NO CHANGE. WTF.

Is it the starter?  Failing to engage?  I can jump power to it, but haven't done that yet.  If it was that, why does that crank with a jump?  Is the pertronix being flaky and shorting out the start circuit somehow?  Why is starting circuit intermittent?  Is it Neutral Safety switch?  Doesn't start if I move to neural or any other gear.  Why no radio with key-on?  Is the starting switch worn out/mal-adjusted?

I am virtually certain there are no fuel, air problems.  If I go jump the car everything works. So weird.

Help.  I suck at electrical stuff, need some help if you have any ideas.

 

[Brian Conway 264]

Start with the simple stuff first.  As stated you haven't jumped the starter yet.  I would check the starter connection first, then put a test light on it , starter post and cable end, and then try the jumpers direct from the battery.  remember safety first. Brian

[1969_Mach1 333]

Will it will not crank, since it has headlights and dome lights, but no radio or heater fan, maybe the ignition switch.  When it will not crank, I'd first double check for power at the S terminal on the starter relay while the key is in the crank position.  If it's the ignition switch, there should be no power at that terminal while the key is in the crank position.

I've seen a bad battery cable cause similar intermittent issues.  But in those instances nothing worked including headlights.

[JayEstes 172]

okay, thx for tip on S-terminal.  I just checked that, and while holding the key in CRANK, the S-terminal is only reading 0.14V.  SO I believe that means the problem is likely the ignition switch inside the car.  I've no real idea how these fail, but I assume some corroded internal contacts or worn out contacts.  This failure signature came about really abruptly, and so it's not like I was getting intermittent stuff - it just went out suddenly.  Pretty surprising.

Anyone know if it can be disassembled and cleaned/repaired or is this is a "buy new one" situation?  I'd prefer to keep the original and original keys etc.

Thanks for the help!

Jay

[Midlife 814]

1 hour ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

Will it will not crank, since it has headlights and dome lights, but no radio or heater fan, maybe the ignition switch.  When it will not crank, I'd first double check for power at the S terminal on the starter relay while the key is in the crank position.  If it's the ignition switch, there should be no power at that terminal while the key is in the crank position.

I've seen a bad battery cable cause similar intermittent issues.  But in those instances nothing worked including headlights.

I agree that it is most likely the ignition switch.  The ignition switch is indicated to be bad with low voltage at the S plug and NSS properly aligned.  However, you shouldn't be hearing a click at all with very low voltage at that plug unless you have a massive voltage drop to the starter from solenoid to starter or low battery voltage.

Quote

If it's the ignition switch, there should be no power at that terminal while the key is in the crank position.

That's somewhat ambiguous wording, at least to me.

The fact that you lose radio and other ACC accessories is expected, as power to that circuit is dropped when the key is in the CRANK position.

[JayEstes 172]

Copy all, but I don't have radio or fan in ACC, RUN or CRANK.  Those just don't work at all.  Although, if I jump it, everything seems to work - which seems strange to me.  I'm gonna see if I can check connections on the ignition switch I have and if it can't be made to work, I'll replace it.  I just checked the video on west coast classic cougar site, and found out the switch is a separate electrical piece on the back of the key tumbler that can be bought separately.

Re: this comment:

30 minutes ago, Midlife said:

The fact that you lose radio and other ACC accessories is expected, as power to that circuit is dropped when the key is in the CRANK position.

so, when key in CRANK, power to radio and other ACC will be dropped, BUT I should have a full 12V at S-terminal?

[1969_Mach1 333]

34 minutes ago, JayEstes said:

Re: this comment:

so, when key in CRANK, power to radio and other ACC will be dropped, BUT I should have a full 12V at S-terminal?

That's correct.

Did you say everything works fine when you attach jumper cables to your battery?  Did you try simply jiggling the battery cables and battery cable connections?  Could be coincidence I guess and still a bad ignition switch.

[Midlife 814]

If you don't have ACC in any key position, then definitely the ignition switch is bad, or...you also don't have BATT power! 

ACC comes from the ignition switch.

[JayEstes 172]

2 hours ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

That's correct.

Did you say everything works fine when you attach jumper cables to your battery?  Did you try simply jiggling the battery cables and battery cable connections?  Could be coincidence I guess and still a bad ignition switch.

Yes.  I had to remove the battery to rework the the non-stock ground I have installed in the chassis near the battery, so all of those connections were opened, checked, (already clean) and retightened.  It was jumped both times with a portable battery system.  Definitely not loose/dirty connections in the engine compartment - I've checked all of those.

[JayEstes 172]

2 hours ago, Midlife said:

If you don't have ACC in any key position, then definitely the ignition switch is bad, or...you also don't have BATT power! 

ACC comes from the ignition switch.

New ignition switch should be here tomorrow, so I'll know then.  I checked the harness connection, unplugged & replugged and still no joy - so it's not just a loose connection there or anything.  

[JayEstes 172]

okay, well bend me over and "thank you sir may I have another!".  NO JOY with new ignition switch.  I still get some sort of relay click (or "pop") when I turn the key "sometimes".... but sometimes I don't.  Sometimes its just silence....  Headlights now DO NOT work.  They DID work before the swap and now don't. However, interior dome light works fine (while door open etc) but when I pull headlight switch - dome light goes off.  I really don't know WTF is going on.   Radio and fan are no go in any key postion.  

I got under car and started looking at NSS, and found some heat damage on the jacketing from exhaust pipe.  I pulled it, and wire jackets are melted some, but no sign of shorting anywhere.  Is there a standard test I can run on the NSS?  OHM it out or something?  The interior collar rotates but is kind of gritty/grindy, and I wonder if it is still good...

I've lost the knack men.  Someone save me - I can't find my ass with either hand in the garage now...

[1969_Mach1 333]

You are certain the wires are connected to the ignition switch correctly?  If so, it's possible the new switch is bad since things that operated before now don't.  Almost need to check it with an ohmmeter or a simple self powered continuity tester before installing it to be certain you have a good switch.

Back to the jumper cables, since it has worked fine when they are connected, do you have another battery, maybe from another car to temporarily install and see if all your issues are resolved.  You said your battery was tested at Auto Zone and was okay.  But was it tested correctly?  It might have a cell going bad but still be able to operate the headlights.

[JayEstes 172]

7 minutes ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

You are certain the wires are connected to the ignition switch correctly?

Back to the jumper cables, since is works fine when they are connected, do you have another battery, maybe from another car to temporarily install and see if all your issues are resolved.  You said your battery was tested at Auto Zone and was okay.  But was it tested correctly?  It might have a cell going bad.

thx yes.  I'm doing that tomorrow.  My charger still thinks it's fully charged, but maybe it's got a weird failure where it only reports full charge, but has no real charge when you need it.  Tonight I did put the charger on 50A charge for a second and tried to crank - not a peep out of the solenoid.  HOWEVER the NSS switch and cable were removed so I think that's not a good test.  I am so fed up with this dang problem.

 

[aslanefe 333]

1 hour ago, JayEstes said:

thx yes.  I'm doing that tomorrow.  My charger still thinks it's fully charged, but maybe it's got a weird failure where it only reports full charge, but has no real charge when you need it.  Tonight I did put the charger on 50A charge for a second and tried to crank - not a peep out of the solenoid.  HOWEVER the NSS switch and cable were removed so I think that's not a good test.  I am so fed up with this dang problem.

 

Going from my old memory, you can undo the NSS connector at firewall and put a jumper on firewall side of the connector to bypass NSS. There are 4 wires on that connector, 2 for NSS, 2 for reverse. Can't remember the wire colors for NSS that needs to be jumped on firewall side of connector. Also, I have opened and cleaned the original ignition switches of my 69 and 70s before and used them with success.

[aslanefe 333]

How about running a wire from under S terminal to inside, and an other wire from battery + to inside. Connect a switch to the ends of the wires. Turn the key to start, if starter does not engage, do not let the key off but press the switch you just rigged up. If the engine turns over, the battery, starter and selonoid are fine.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

One thing I can think of that all those circuits have in common. Start at the battery and the cable goes to the solenoid. From there it depends on if you have a tach or not. With a factory tach, wire 38A connects to the solenoid, which splices to wire 37. Without a tach, then 38B connects to the solenoid, splices to 38A, and that splices to wire 37. Its unlikely the problem is here in these splices.

Main power wire #37 goes through the firewall connector and splices to three other wires:

21- goes to ignition switch B, explaining your intermittent solenoid, flashers, radio, backup lights, and heater.

37A- goes to the fuse panel and connects to 14A fuse #6 and 20A fuse #7. Em flashers are on #7,  while #6 has courtesy lights clock and cigar lighter

 25 - goes to light switch B which controls interior and exterior lights and horns.

Its unlikely that this splice is the culprit, and more likely that its the firewall connection. Its easy to spot- its the biggest one in there.

[JayEstes 172]

9 hours ago, aslanefe said:

How about running a wire from under S terminal to inside, and an other wire from battery + to inside. Connect a switch to the ends of the wires. Turn the key to start, if starter does not engage, do not let the key off but press the switch you just rigged up. If the engine turns over, the battery, starter and selonoid are fine.

Thanks.  That's a good simple test I can try.  

[LoneWolf2U 136]

Everything points to open or poor power lead. Trace the wire from batt/sol connection to ign switch.

There looks like a broken or bad connection as loss of lights now.

Work from the source outward chasing electrical gremlins.

 

[RPM 1,190]

Jay, when you get this figured out, let me know. I've got the exact same thing going on. My clicking sound is coming from the solenoid. I've changed every ignition part more than once, except for the wiring and battery. Battery is 2-3 years old and tested fine. 

[LoneWolf2U 136]

Your getting click from sol is possible poor ground at sol.

No power would not activate sol function.

His lack of power to acc or on to other functions like radio, wipers, signals lean to power not making it to the jgn switch.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

58 minutes ago, Mach1Rider said:

Your getting click from sol is possible poor ground at sol.

No power would not activate sol function.

His lack of power to acc or on to other functions like radio, wipers, signals lean to power not making it to the jgn switch.

I think its a high resistance connection at the firewall for the main power wire #37. Some things work, some don't- it just depends on the resistance in the circuits down stream of the firewall.

[LoneWolf2U 136]

Yes it is possible. I would test the ign switch plug by putting a volt meter on the hot lead and use a jumper wire from it to test the terminals for operation.

Keep eye on voltage of hot lead, it should drop slightly with each term test. If the voltage drops to 0 then search for break in wire or poor connections.

Simple test for start system is jump from batt side to S term on sol,  It should crank engine and atemp to run. If not sol may be bad or sticking.

NSS is just a contact on/off quickly checked with ohm meter at 4 prong plug. place meter inline and move shift lever. it should show completed circuit on meter in park, neutral and rev lights (other wires) in R.

 

[JayEstes 172]

OK, well a verdict is in, although, I am going to admit - as is usually the case between me and electricity - I found something that makes it work fine, but I'm not 100% sure why it did what it did. 

So, I had my harnesses refurb by Midlife which I think is still one of the best decisions I made.  When I had him do the engine harness, I had him add a line for the tach.  Now I haven't had a tach put in since, and it is not wired to a tach.  I understood this to be tach power, so I ran it to the positive terminal harness and hooked to 12V power there (this could have been a problem that I did that - I don't know how the tach is configured, but assumed this "tach power" red wire needed to go the +12V).  So it was hooked up to the + terminal - it has been that way since I put it in, I've had essentially zero elec problems since I put the thing back together ~2016 or so.  But I never had a tach....

I also suspected the NSS so I removed and cleaned it - I did find some heat damage from the new dual exhaust, but upon inspection, no shorts in that cable.  I jumpered over the NSS switch just in case for the rest of the troubleshooting.

So what I found was really odd - stumbled onto it this way:  I hooked up my battery charger, because I thought I could drive out the problem if I did - the car would generally start when jumped. Put the thing in 50A mode... It cycles on/off because the batt is saying full.  I get the car cranking, and as I do- I crank, then stop, then crank, then stop.  Did this about half a dozen times and I notice a spark at the base of the positive terminal right on the battery.  Battery is bad I thought!  How could a good battery spark at the +post!  gotta be a bad battery.  Swap the battery and it seemed to go away initially, however I cranked/stopped something like 10x and then I see the SAME spark at the +post of the battery.  OKAY this is the car somehow - not a bad batt.

Removal inspection showed that little tach power wire was tied down right where the sparking was occurring.  Now, I do not know what has happened, but initially I was like well, it must be shorted to ground somewhere in the car because if I remove it, everything is fine.  Car runs/starts normally all other functions are restored.

In thinking about it since finding the problem - There is a very good chance I did something stupid by hooking up that wire, but that is definitely what I thought I needed to do at the time I put it in.  Also, if that wire was occasionally short, WHY would the thing spark at the positive terminal post??  Shouldn't it spark at the location where it touches ground?  Maybe not, because the tach end at the instrument cluster was left free.  Taped-up, but free.  Anyway, I now believe one of two things occurred:

1. That wire is hooked up properly, but is hitting ground somewhere, and was draining my current to crank the starter, and run ACC circuit.
2. I made a mistake hooking up the "tach power" line and should have left it unattached until a tach went in.

SO, in summary - it's running again, but the logic of how I got a spark at the battery post really baffles me.  So me and mr electricity are back in our respective corners - catchng our breath for the next round....

How crazy is that?

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I'm not sure what was done exactly, but its best to understand the problem instead of just hoping its OK, so I'm sure Randy will be around to give his opinion.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Hope Midlife comes along with his explanation, because that makes no sense to me.  Simply adding a tach wire to only the engine compartment harness?  I've converted a non-tach harness for a factory tach and it involves reworking both the engine compartment and under dash harness, and much more than adding one wire.