Mini Starter

[jrw69 16]

Wanted some input on starters. 69 Mach with 351W, long tube headers having hard starting when hot. I have a stock starter now and was wondering about changing to a mini. I looked at the  PA Performance 1881 starter at CJ Pony. Has anyone gone this route and what are your thoughts on this? 

 

Thanks 

[danno 128]

If you are having a hard time starting the motor when hot, I would think replacing the starter is chasing the wrong problem.  If the starter does not have the same power when hot, the odds are it could be something else is contributing to issue that is not the starter.   Perhaps there is a weak connection somewhere that gets weaker when hot?  The problem certainly could be the starter, but it might not be. 

I had a similar problem.  I attached a wire from the connection on the starter to the plus side of a  voltmeter, and connected the negative side of the voltmeter to the engine block header bolts.  I could see the voltage during cranking was dropping significantly.  I had a bad starter solenoid.  

Consider vapor lock or a gas issue that could be the problem.  A new starter will not solve that problem. 

[SM69Mach 68]

Check the grounds.  They could be corroded or you might need more.  I had the same issue, and changed out all of the ground wires and made sure the connections were good and that helped out.  

 

[jrw69 16]

will check grounds, just put in a new solenoid. Do like to keep the    original starter if possible.

Thanks

[lanky 44]

This sounds backwards, but if I know the engine bay is hot, I hold the throttle to the floor while cranking the engine. It seems to help with the vapor lock. Not pump, just push and hold.

As soon as it's firing I release the throttle. My car would crank fine, but wouldn't turn over. This trick solved the problem for me.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Mini starters can be expensive. And some of the gear reduction aftermarket stuff can be noisy.  I had the same issue you are having, hard to crank over when hot with the 351W in my 1969 Mach 1.  This was many years ago, I went to the parts department at my local Ford dealer, the part number changed a few times, but I ended up with a late model permanent magnet gear reduction mini starter.  It solved all the hard starting issues.

If you have an automatic trans, I think a starter for a 1995 or so F150 with a 5.8L and automatic trans will fit.  Those are a PMGR mini starter and you can get one from a parts store.  Just do a close comparison before installing it, especially the drive gear.

[jrw69 16]

I have a 4 speed top loader. I will check out gear reduction starter

Thanks

[dream car 12]

19 minutes ago, jrw69 said:

I have a 4 speed top loader. I will check out gear reduction starter

Thanks

  Let me know whatever you install, like to know does it do any good on hot engine.  What works and don't works ?

[RPM 1,190]

Putting a used 1986 PMGR starter solved this very problem on my 351w with headers. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

3 hours ago, jrw69 said:

I have a 4 speed top loader. I will check out gear reduction starter

Thanks

Keep in mind, an auto trans starter will not work on a manual transmission.  A couple of things to remember when selecting a starter for your car. (1) Do you have a 164 tooth or 157 tooth ring gear.  If you have an 11" clutch (standard on 351W cars) then you will have a 164 tooth ring gear.  If somebody installed a 10.5" clutch setup like used on the 302 engines, then it would have a 157 tooth flywheel. (2) Manual trans cars use a 3/8" offset drive gear on the starter and an auto trans car uses a 3/4" offset.  An auto trans starter will bolt on a manual trans, but because the drive gear sticks out further, it will never disengage from the ring gear, (guess how I learned about this.) 

[jrw69 16]

1969_Mach 1   

Thanks for this reminder. I have a 11" clutch so must have a 164 tooth ring gear. I wasn't sure of the offset. With the top loader it should be a 3/8" I assume.

[RPM 1,190]

An exception to this rule is when using a 157t flywheel an auto starter is the correct one to use. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

3 hours ago, jrw69 said:

1969_Mach 1   

Thanks for this reminder. I have a 11" clutch so must have a 164 tooth ring gear. I wasn't sure of the offset. With the top loader it should be a 3/8" I assume.

Yes, that's correct, 3/8" offset.

20 minutes ago, RPM said:

An exception to this rule is when using a 157t flywheel an auto starter is the correct one to use. 

I had no idea that was the case for a 157 tooth flywheel.  I learned something new.

[danno 128]

Does this mean you need to count the teeth?   That can be a real tedious process.  beer helps. 

[RPM 1,190]

Oh ya, gotta count those teeth. Something I learned while searching for my flywheel is that Ford makes a 160 tooth flywheel. True story. 

[snafu 10]

I recently swapped in this Powermaster starter.  Works good and fixed my slow hot start problems.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9162/year/1969/make/ford/model/mustang

 

[Grabber70Mach 107]

Does anyone know of a Ford stock application PGM starter that would fit a 351C with Auto?  It's an AOD if that makes a difference.

[Vicfreg 771]

I have a 351 W with shorty headers.  I got a mini starter from Jegs that works great.  I also have a massive ground cable that runs from my chassis near the idler arm to the engine block, attached to the starter bolt.   I have a trunk mounted battery and have no issues.  Both the min-starter and the hot and ground cables are protected by DEI heat wrap.

 

[dream car 12]

On 10/2/2020 at 10:15 AM, Grabber70Mach said:

Does anyone know of a Ford stock application PGM starter that would fit a 351C with Auto?  It's an AOD if that makes a difference.

 

Just installed my geared hi-torque mini starter past weekend.  It solved the hot starting issue I had.  Now the motor crank, and turn without hesitation.  Go to NPD they have a good selections.  I bought the all black, 180-lb model. (don't want to give you a wrong parts number)

 

[EastYorkStang 63]

On 10/2/2020 at 7:12 PM, Vicfreg said:

I have a 351 W with shorty headers.  I got a mini starter from Jegs that works great.  I also have a massive ground cable that runs from my chassis near the idler arm to the engine block, attached to the starter bolt.   I have a trunk mounted battery and have no issues.  Both the min-starter and the hot and ground cables are protected by DEI heat wrap.

 

Did you secure it with a bolt into the actual frame or where is it bolted to ? Thinking I might do this.

[dream car 12]

2 hours ago, EastYorkStang said:

Did you secure it with a bolt into the actual frame or where is it bolted to ? Thinking I might do this.

It bolt onto original mounting holes, you might need little longer bolts, because the new starter is little thicker at the mount plate.  

Edited October 14, 2020 by dream car

[EastYorkStang 63]

On 10/2/2020 at 7:12 PM, Vicfreg said:

I also have a massive ground cable that runs from my chassis near the idler arm to the engine block, attached to the starter bolt.   

Where, how is it attached on the chassis ? 

[Vicfreg 771]

I drilled and tapped a hole in the horizontal surface of the frame above where the idler arm is.   I used a 3/8 inch Tap and 3/8 inch chassis bolt.  

I sourced a surplus Military ground cable from EBay

The other end of this cable is attached directly to where the starter bolts to the block
 

I will try to find a picture