Scary Steering Feel

[rittenrotton 4]

So I just fished upgrading to a borgenson power steering Box, hoses & Saginaw Power Steering pump as well as doing a shelby drop. I also replaced the upper control arms., idler arm, both outer tie rods and tie rod sleeves. I just got an alignment done this morning, but the car doesn't feel right. It just feels like there's no control at any speed above 10 mph, like the steering is just loose.

I started with the shelby drop and the car drove fine. with the exception that the car just had terrible bump steer and was pretty sloppy at highway speeds. So that's when I decided to replace all the steering components and here I am. I checked that all the castle nuts are in tight with the cotter pin and that the steering coupler isn't loose. I know its hard to determine the cause without seeing the car in person or driving it for yourself. But what could be the best way to determine the cause?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[RPM 1,190]

What are your alignment specs? The shop should've given them to you.

[rittenrotton 4]

Unfortunately they did not give me the specs

[RPM 1,190]

Hmm... not good. If all your parts are new and in good condition, and your alignment is done to dazecars.com specs, it should ride like it's on rails. 

https://dazecars.com/dazed/suspension101.html#3

If the shop didn't keep the alignment specs for you, I'd have another shop that knows early Mustang suspensions, and will align it to Daze's specs.

 

[DocWok 30]

The fact that the shop did not supply you with the final alignment spec's would suggest they have not set it the spec's you required and have something to hide.

RPM is spot on with his advice.

[lanky 44]

Yea before anyone can determine what's going on alignment specs are needed.

Maybe related...look at my profile/threads to read my experience with the borgeson system if you like.

[barnett468 418]

6 hours ago, rittenrotton said:

I started with the shelby drop and the car drove fine. with the exception that the car just had terrible bump steer and was pretty sloppy at highway speeds.

I just got an alignment done this morning, but the car doesn't feel right.

Aligning a Mustang to Fords stock specs will not cause a significant bad driving feel. For an alignment alone to cause a car to steer so badly it feels dangerous, it would have to be a mile off, with typically the toe in being way to far in or toed out.

Is it worse now than it was before the shelby drop?

Is it worse now than it was before the alignment?

What size tires do you have?

Is there any play in the steering wheel?

Are the tie rod ends good?

Exactly what is the problem?

[barnett468 418]

4 hours ago, rittenrotton said:

Unfortunately they did not give me the specs

They should have them, so simply call them and ask them if they do and what they are.

[Midlife 814]

I wonder if there is too much slop in the rag joint in the steering column...

[RPM 1,190]

All the info from the replies are good. But there's lots of info needed from the OP. 

After we get the alignment specs, and we get specific symptoms on what and when the steering is doing its scary feeling, we can give you more accurate fixes.

 

[Ridge Runner 1,112]

14 hours ago, Midlife said:

I wonder if there is too much slop in the rag joint in the steering column...

Mid life may be on to somthing here ,check to see if the pins on the wrag joint are deep enough into the steering shaft ,if they do not mesh together the wrag joint is taking all the force and will feel sloppy . The steering shaft slides in the column and can be pulled out or pushed in. 

[danno 128]

When I took mine to get aligned, the first 2 places would not touch it.  One of the guys said he would have to guess about the settings because they were not in some reference material he had.   I finally found one place in town that knew what to do,  they work on old cars all the time.   So depending on where you took it, they could have just been guessing on the settings.

[Mike65 475]

On 9/11/2019 at 4:25 PM, RPM said:

Hmm... not good. If all your parts are new and in good condition, and your alignment is done to dazecars.com specs, it should ride like it's on rails. 

https://dazecars.com/dazed/suspension101.html#3

If the shop didn't keep the alignment specs for you, I'd have another shop that knows early Mustang suspensions, and will align it to Daze's specs.

 

 

would it be better to use the specs from Dazecars or from Opentracker Racing?.

https://opentrackerracing.com/technical/

[barnett468 418]

6 hours ago, danno said:

When I took mine to get aligned, the first 2 places would not touch it.  One of the guys said he would have to guess about the settings because they were not in some reference material he had.  

Wow, don't ever go back to the first guy cuz the specs can be found in 10 seconds by just doing a Google search.

 

[danno 128]

17 hours ago, barnett468 said:

Wow, don't ever go back to the first guy cuz the specs can be found in 10 seconds by just doing a Google search.

 

Yes, but he could not translate to the software in the computer.  His computer would set it all up automatically with the fixtures.  If he could not do it on his fancy automatic system, he could not do it.   Maybe he just did not want to, because it would be more work than he wanted?

[barnett468 418]

7 hours ago, danno said:

Yes, but he could not translate to the software in the computer.  His computer would set it all up automatically with the fixtures.  If he could not do it on his fancy automatic system, he could not do it.   Maybe he just did not want to, because it would be more work than he wanted?

That makes zero sense, it has nothing to do with his machine.

[rittenrotton 4]

Sorry for the delay in my response, my wife just gave birth to my 2nd daughter.

Barnett468 - I have 225/45ZR17 on all 4 wheels; the car felt better after the Shelby drop but still had terrible bump steer before I changed the steering components. I thought by replacing all the worn out steering components (which where original) the car would handle better. I definetly did not match the lengths of the new tie rods to the old ones. There was very little play in the steering wheel; it's a little difficult to describe the problem but I think the best way to describe it, is that the steering wheel doesn't seem to match the tires. Almost like the feeling that the wheels aren't going the same direction. Before the alginment, you could see the camber was not right (as you could see the wheels were at a slight tilted angle) and the wheels were definitely not matching the same direction. I would of taken it to a shop like ETD Tire or a national chain but it was not safe driving the car the way it was.

 

I' located in the Bronx in NYC; there is a 100 little independent shops that do alignments.. I'm sure I could of asked for the documentation but I wasn't aware that there was such a thing.exisits. Would the specs really help to understand what a potential issue could be?

After I wrote this post, I contacted Borgeson about my issue and their tech believes that my steering box was not centered before I attached the pitman arm and connected it to the center link. I was in the process of seeing if this was the issue but unfortunately I didn't get the chance to complete this yet and take it on a test drive. In a few weeks, i hope to see if this is the issue. 

[mustangstofear 608]

We've used that exact same  setup without any problems  at all, of course we  do our own alignments:)

[1969_Mach1 333]

8 hours ago, rittenrotton said:

Sorry for the delay in my response, my wife just gave birth to my 2nd daughter.

Barnett468 - I have 225/45ZR17 on all 4 wheels; the car felt better after the Shelby drop but still had terrible bump steer before I changed the steering components. I thought by replacing all the worn out steering components (which where original) the car would handle better. I definetly did not match the lengths of the new tie rods to the old ones. There was very little play in the steering wheel; it's a little difficult to describe the problem but I think the best way to describe it, is that the steering wheel doesn't seem to match the tires. Almost like the feeling that the wheels aren't going the same direction. Before the alginment, you could see the camber was not right (as you could see the wheels were at a slight tilted angle) and the wheels were definitely not matching the same direction. I would of taken it to a shop like ETD Tire or a national chain but it was not safe driving the car the way it was.

 

I' located in the Bronx in NYC; there is a 100 little independent shops that do alignments.. I'm sure I could of asked for the documentation but I wasn't aware that there was such a thing.exisits. Would the specs really help to understand what a potential issue could be?

After I wrote this post, I contacted Borgeson about my issue and their tech believes that my steering box was not centered before I attached the pitman arm and connected it to the center link. I was in the process of seeing if this was the issue but unfortunately I didn't get the chance to complete this yet and take it on a test drive. In a few weeks, i hope to see if this is the issue. 

The description is a bit confusing.  I don't think you are experiencing bump steer.  It's very critical that you center the steering box before reinstalling the pitman arm, rag joint, column and steering wheel.  If you do not, then when the steering wheel is straight the box will be positioned off of "center steer"  The way the gears are cut inside a steering box, when it is in it's centered steer position there is no "play" between the gears.  The steering gears actually have an interference fit in the center steer position.  This occurs for about 1/4-1/2 revolution through center position.  As the box comes off of center there is some play between the gears.  On borgeson boxes the sector shaft where the pitman arm attached has 4 master splines master splines plus there is no master spline on the input (worm gear) shaft.  This leaves you to find the steering box center as best possible before installing the pitmant arm, rag joint, column and steering wheel.  If your steering box was not centered, you will have a lot of play in the steering wheel when going straight which might be what you are experiencing.

[RPM 1,190]

On 9/12/2019 at 4:16 PM, Mike65 said:

 

would it be better to use the specs from Dazecars or from Opentracker Racing?.

https://opentrackerracing.com/technical/

Either one is fine, as they are pretty darn close. I don't think anyone here could feel any difference between the two. I went from 4° caster and .25° neg camber to 8° caster and 1.5° neg camber and could not feel any difference with normal street driving. 

[RPM 1,190]

On 9/13/2019 at 10:38 AM, danno said:

Yes, but he could not translate to the software in the computer.  His computer would set it all up automatically with the fixtures.  If he could not do it on his fancy automatic system, he could not do it.   Maybe he just did not want to, because it would be more work than he wanted?

Ditto what barnett said. The computer doesn't adjust the specs, a person with hand tools does. It doesn't matter the car in the software. They can adjust the steering and suspension until it matches the Daze or Opentracker specs. 

[RPM 1,190]

Rotten, I recommend you read Huskinhano's how to thread. 

https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/885066-setting-caster-camber.html

[barnett468 418]

On 9/14/2019 at 4:16 AM, rittenrotton said:

Barnett468 - I have 225/45ZR17 on all 4 wheels;

These can contribute to a "wandering" and "bump steer" feel, especially if they are flat across the face with very little curve/crown.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Changing the steering box does not affect or change the steering linkage or suspension geometry.  With that in mind, bump steer will not occur from simply changing the steering box. It's probably either the tires like barnet468 mentioned or your steering box was not centered before installing the pitman arm and/or rag joint/steering column assembly.

After installing my Borgeson steering box, I reset the toe with a tape measure then did a fine centering of the steering wheel with the tie rod adjusting sleeves and it steers just fine.  I didn't increase the caster like is suggested for better steering wheel return to center, but that doesn't bother me.