Noisy valve train

[Cantedvalve 128]

I’ve put a hydraulic roller cam in my 351C. It is a Howard’s Cam unit. I used the matching lifters and push rods. I have pedestal mount roller rockers. When I assembled the engine, I went through the firing order to set preload. 1/2 to 3/4 turn past zero, which should be 0.030” to 0.050” on the screw.  Had to shim a few of them cause they were over a full turn.

As far as I can tell, I’ve done everything right. Contact point of roller tip is centered on the valve. I’ve got good oil pressure when cold, haven’t checked it hot yet. Not sure how I can have bad pressure hot if cold is good.

Anyway, looking for advice.

Parts used:

Howards Cams camshaft 230245-10

Howards Cams hydroller lifters 91168

[barnett468 418]

What do you mean by noisy valve train?

How long has the engine run?

What exactly did you shim?

 

 

 

[sixt9stang 36]

I don't know anywhere near as much as barnett but in my opinion your valvetrain should all take about the same amount of turns to achieve the proper preload.  You should not have to shim some of the valvetrain.  You might have some lifters that are not pumped up all the way.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Needing to shim between the cylinder head and pedestals on bolt down type of rockers arms is not uncommon.  Most bolt down type of roller rocker arms include shims to obtain the correct preload.

If the oil pressure is good, and the preload is correct, ideally there should be no noise.  But, with hydraulic roller cams, some are made with rather aggressive ramps on the lobes and some valve train noise occurs.

[Cantedvalve 128]

Engine has under 300 miles on it since it was put back together.  The shims went under the pedestals of some old FMS pedestal mount rocker arms.  How did I know what to shim?  Well, i installed the lifters, pushrods, and rockers.  I found zero preload, then turned the bolt until tight.  If I had more than 3/4 turn, I put a .020 shim under it.  Then (after letting the lifter recover), I repeated the process.  If I had more than 1/2 turn, I torqued it to spec and went to the next one.  I think I shimmed 4 rockers.  All told, the assembly went very well... no surprises or issues.  I didnt soak the lifters (directions said not to), just coated them with oil and installed them. rotated the engine looking for interference with the link bars and to make sure the oil band on the lifters stayed in the lifter bore.

After all the reading I have done on the subject, two things keep popping out.  1) Roller rockers are noisy.  My last cam had some noise to it (other than the lobe being wiped off) that I would now probably attribute to the roller rockers.  2) some camshafts, particularly high ramp hydrollers, can be noisy.  I dont pretend to understand it, but there it is.  I sourced springs that were a match for the camshaft (went with the lightest spring I could find that still met requirements... definitely didnt overspring it).

Car runs great.  I have no complaints on performance at all... just the noise.  I may have an exhaust leak... I will look for that.  That would not be the whole issue though.  The valve train just sounds very clattery.  Almost like a solid cam.

[barnett468 418]

What size and thread pitch are the rocker arm bolts?

What roller rockers do you have.

Contrary to what many people have wrongly posted on the internet, you will not hear excessive noise from a small to moderate size steep ramp cam. If one hears unusually ticking sounds from one, it is from something other than the cam and the lifters are sometimes the cause, especially if they are crappy comp cams hydraulic lifters.

Only crappy, or worn out roller rockers are loud.

 

[Cantedvalve 128]

So the roller rockers are old Ford Motorsport units - M-6564-B351.  They are the same rockers I had with the previous cam.  The bolts are 5/16-18.  One turn is 0.0556".

The instructions on installing the lifters was 0.020" to 0.025" preload.  1/2 turn would give me 0.027".  All of my preloads were between 1/2 and 3/4 turn, so 0.027" to 0.040"

I wouldn't be surprised if these were ProForm rockers that Ford had made for them... ProForm makes them now, look the exact same.

My cam specs are:

Duration 278/282 advertised, 225/229 at 0.050, 0.576/0.600 lift, 106 centerline, 110 lobe separation angle.

I wouldn't think that would be noisy either.  I think I have the original rockers... I COULD reinstall those and see if that makes a difference.

[barnett468 418]

50 minutes ago, Cantedvalve said:

So the roller rockers are old Ford Motorsport units - M-6564-B351.  They are the same rockers I had with the previous cam.  The bolts are 5/16-18.  One turn is 0.0556".

The instructions on installing the lifters was 0.020" to 0.025" preload.  1/2 turn would give me 0.027".  All of my preloads were between 1/2 and 3/4 turn, so 0.027" to 0.040"

I wouldn't be surprised if these were ProForm rockers that Ford had made for them... ProForm makes them now, look the exact same.

My cam specs are:

Duration 278/282 advertised, 225/229 at 0.050, 0.576/0.600 lift, 106 centerline, 110 lobe separation angle.

I wouldn't think that would be noisy either.  I think I have the original rockers... I COULD reinstall those and see if that makes a difference.

The following is for 1.62 ratio rocker arms and 18 threads per inch rocker arm bolts:

1 turn changes preload by .090

1/2 turn changes preload by .045"

Adding a .020 shim reduces preload by .063"

If you had 3/4 turns of preload then installed a .020" shim, you would have .008" of clearance or minus .008" of preload.

If you have exactly 3/4 turns of "preload" on the rocker bolt, you have .0675" of preload on the lifter.

Also, it is best to fill new lifters with oil before starting an engine. This makes the engine start faster and run better when it first starts and also prevents the lifter internal parts from sledge hammering each other until the lifters fill with enough oil to prevent the internal parts from making contact with each other.

Your howards lifters are most likely morel lifters, but you can call howards to confirm.

That cam can certainly make a little noise, but won't sound like a bunch of extremely loose rocker arms.

Also, heavier springs are better than lighter ones and you should probably have at least 125 lbs of spring pressure with the valves closed.

 

 

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[Cantedvalve 128]

See, the directions for the lifters said specifically to NOT soak the lifters, only to coat the outside with engine oil.

my springs are set up for 130 lbs closed, 375 lbs open.

ive got time this weekend.  I’ll pull the valve covers and redo the preloads.  No reason not to.

[barnett468 418]

43 minutes ago, Cantedvalve said:

See, the directions for the lifters said specifically to NOT soak the lifters, only to coat the outside with engine oil.

my springs are set up for 130 lbs closed, 375 lbs open.

ive got time this weekend.  I’ll pull the valve covers and redo the preloads.  No reason not to.

i know that some directions say that but in my 45 years of doing this for a living, i have never seen any upside to installing them dry and have only seen downsides to doing it that way.

i do not soak them, i install them then prime the oil system then rotate the crank 1/2 turn and prime it again then do that 2 more times.

[Cantedvalve 128]

oh yeah I did that (priming).  I though you meant presoaking them.

[barnett468 418]

3 minutes ago, Cantedvalve said:

oh yeah I did that (priming).  I though you meant presoaking them.

just in case you didn't know, if you prime it the way i suggested, all the lifters will be nearly full if not completely full. if you just leave the crank in one position, several of the lifters will still be nearly empty.

[1969_Mach1 333]

On 7/31/2019 at 7:26 PM, Cantedvalve said:

See, the directions for the lifters said specifically to NOT soak the lifters, only to coat the outside with engine oil.

my springs are set up for 130 lbs closed, 375 lbs open.

ive got time this weekend.  I’ll pull the valve covers and redo the preloads.  No reason not to.

The reason you don't want to soak the lifters before installing them is because sometimes if they are filled with oil before adjusting the preload, when you adjust the preload instead of the plunger in the lifter moving, it holds the valve open.

I use Barnett's method, it works great.