Head gasket issue? (No it was a wiped cam)

[barnett468 418]

50 minutes ago, Cantedvalve said:

And the verdict is... 3 bad lifters.  Exhaust #1 was only starting to wear.  Exhaust #7 was destroyed.  Intake #8 was destroyed.

A little bit of history behind this cam and lifters... bought it from a VMFer that had it in his 351C.  He kept the lifters in the right order, and I may or may not have put them in the wrong order.  Either way, I got about 15,000 out of the set before this happened.  Off to order another cam kit.

Bummer, and unfortunately, if the lifters are grooved/scraped on the bottom, you now have shrapnel in your engine, so it should be disassembled and cleaned. The shrapnel in the oil pan can easily get tossed up into the cylinders where it will score the cylinders and pistons, just ask me how I know this. This combined with the brown gunk spells disassemble and clean and inspect everything.

 

[Midlife 814]

So what are the chances that this car will be back on the road this year?  Dang, CV...sorry to hear about the lifters.

 

[Cantedvalve 128]

Cam kit is already ordered.  Already have the gasket kit.

Hey, I gambled on a used cam and lifter set. I got bit.  I’ll manage.  I’ve got a car show July 26-27 that I plan to be at.  The reason I am getting into this now is that I have a valve train in my daily driver that needs attention... was thinking I could drive the Mustang while I figured that out.

Best laid plans huh?

[Midlife 814]

You sure this isn't your problem?

 

[Cantedvalve 128]

@Midlife  as I didn’t see you anywhere near my car with a ratchet, no, I don’t think that’s my problem

[RogerC 136]

Be sure you buy 351C specific lifters and not 351W/351C lifters. The relief on thee body of 351W lifters extends higher on the lifter body. While they will physically fit that extended relief will internally leak oil as the edge of that relief will pop up above the edge of the lifter bore every cycle.

Excerpt from "351C Lubrication System Issues" on the 351C forums by George Pence I believe:

"As is the case with most OHV V8s, oil is routed to the 351C valve train via the lifters and push rods. With a Cleveland the flow of oil to the valve train must be limited because everything sent to the valve train impacts the oil supply for the reciprocating assembly. Today’s manufacturers supply lifters designed for 351W applications to their 351C customers. But a 351W has a main priority lubrication system and the 351W oil passages intersect the lifter bores differently; whereas 351C lifters work just fine in Windsor V8s, lifters designed for a Windsor V8 will not necessarily meter oil in a manner compatible with a 351C. Some roller lifters do not operate within the dimensions of the 351C lifter bore properly, the reduced OD band in the middle of the lifter will often become exposed above the top of the lifter bore at peak valve lift, thus dumping oil pressure. Solid flat tappet lifters with edge orifice metering will flow excessive amounts of oil to the valve train each time the orifice aligns with the large oil gallery port on the side of the lifter bore. Other types of lifters, solid and hydraulic, flat and roller, have proven to allow too much oil to flow to the valve gear.

A great deal of 351C lubrication system problems experienced today are the result of aftermarket manufacturers and speed shops selling lifters with an incompatible oil metering system for 351C applications. This issue will manifest itself in the same way lubrication system problems did in 1972, by failure of the connecting rod bearings on the second or third connecting rod journals (the rods for cylinders #2 or #7). But there is a secondary problem arising from use of the wrong lifters, oil is pumped to the valve train faster than it can drain back to the oil pan. In extreme cases the oil can collect quickly enough in the rocker covers that the oil pan is pumped dry."

[Cantedvalve 128]

@RogerC  As you said, for rollers you definitely need to pay attention.  Flats arent a problem though.

I ordered a flat tappet.... but I am having second thoughts.  I can get into a roller setup for about $725, which is new lifters, cam, and pushrods.  But I REALLY like the cam I had... it sounds awesome, and it makes good power.  I called the manufacturer and they pointed me at two cams that will make as much power.  One would not have the lumpy idle quality that I like so much... the other has more lift.

I think I'll make another thread about that.

[RogerC 136]

Do you know the cam specs? I've been buying engine parts for about a year but haven't yet settled on a cam. Mine from the early 80s is 290 duration .509 lift advertised. Supposedly a NAPA brand version of a OEM hi-performance cam. I really liked how it idled and ran but I also want to go complete roller valvetrain now. About 2 weeks ago I dropped in on a local engine builder. I don't know yet if I'll just have them do the machine work and I'll build it or let them do the whole thing. I'm very impressed with their set-up though.

[Cantedvalve 128]

Okay I pulled the trigger...  My old cam...

Lunati Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft

• .536/.562 lift
• 290/300 advertised duration
• 224/234 duration @.050
• 112 lobe separation angle
• 108 intake centerline

Lunati Hydraulic Roller Camshaft

• .593/.611 lift
• 272/280 advertised duration
• 221/229 duration @ .050
• 112 lobe separation angle
• 106 intake centerline

Fortunately the springs are close enough that I dont need to change them (per Lunati).  I am considering dropping down to a 1.6 rocker arm... that lift scares me.

[1969_Mach1 333]

I'll first say that I'm not very familiar with Cleveland motors.  If that valve lift spec is for a 1.6 rocker arm that's what I would use.  In my opinion that is a lot of lift for a street driver car.  It starts to get hard on valve train parts and reliability suffers.  Double check your valve springs.  Hydraulic roller's typically require higher rate springs for two reasons, the increased mass of the lifters and increased acceleration of the lifters.  Both of those increase the forces against the valve springs. You know, simply by Newton's second law of physics.  Too much spring force and you risk collapsing lifters, too little, and valve float and/or bounce. Also check for coil bind plus make certain the spring retainer doesn't contact the valve seal when the valve is open. 

[Cantedvalve 128]

Original spec is 1.73 rockers. So 1.6 would bring it down a bit.  Valve springs... the ones I am using now are SLIGHTLY on the low side, but Lunati said they will work. The rate for the springs recommended is 348, mine are 342. Open pressures and closed pressures are similar. So unless Lunati is way off on their recommendation, I should be fine... and I’m not going to rev this thing to the stars anyway.

[1969_Mach1 333]

21 hours ago, barnett468 said:

Bummer, and unfortunately, if the lifters are grooved/scraped on the bottom, you now have shrapnel in your engine, so it should be disassembled and cleaned. The shrapnel in the oil pan can easily get tossed up into the cylinders where it will score the cylinders and pistons, just ask me how I know this. This combined with the brown gunk spells disassemble and clean and inspect everything.

 

I agree.  At this point the entire motor should be disassembled and cleaned.  But then where do you stop?  Once you start you'll likely find a lot of parts worn beyond their useful life.  Maybe you can get away with merely cleaning everything and freshening the motor for now.

[Cantedvalve 128]

Motor was freshened around 15,000 miles ago.  New bearings, new rings.  Bores were checked... remarkably little wear for a 63,000 mile engine.

Yes, needs a full tear down and cleaning.  My son and I are going to pull it this weekend

[1969_Mach1 333]

I would expect a 63,000 mile motor to have very little wear.

I'm curious, what kind of oil was in the motor when the lifters and cam went bad?

[barnett468 418]

11 hours ago, Cantedvalve said:

Okay I pulled the trigger...  My old cam...

Lunati Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft

• .536/.562 lift
• 290/300 advertised duration
• 224/234 duration @.050
• 112 lobe separation angle
• 108 intake centerline

Lunati Hydraulic Roller Camshaft

• .593/.611 lift
• 272/280 advertised duration
• 221/229 duration @ .050
• 112 lobe separation angle
• 106 intake centerline

Fortunately the springs are close enough that I dont need to change them (per Lunati).  I am considering dropping down to a 1.6 rocker arm... that lift scares me.

What made you decide on that cam, are you going to race the car?

 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I kind of wondered why that cam selection as well.  Mainly because of the lift.  The duration numbers are not bad, only 52 degrees overlap at advertised duration and 1 degree overlap at 0.050" tappet lift.  It will have a noticeable mild rough idle but I don't think it will be that slow lopey idle that some people really like (not me).

[barnett468 418]

While you have it apart i would also drill a .020" hole in the front drivers side lifter galley plug before installing it. This will oil the bejesus out of the distributor gear without affecting oil pressure.

Also, if much of the oil hole in the front cam journal hole is exposed, i would install another front cam bearing and sink it no more than .005" deeper than the chamfer on the front of the hole.

 

[Cantedvalve 128]

New cam selection... Lunati is having a hard time getting cores, so they cant make it for awhile.  Went looking for a different cam... found one I liked better from Howard Cams:

• .576/.600 total lift
• 278/282 advertised duration
• 224/229 duration @ .050
• 110 LSA
• 106 ICL

Similar, but probably a little more lopey than what I had or what I picked out.  Valve overlap is 59* and 6.5* @ .050

Got the old camshaft out of the engine.  Three bad lobes.  As expected.

[barnett468 418]

22 minutes ago, Cantedvalve said:

New cam selection... Lunati is having a hard time getting cores, so they cant make it for awhile.  Went looking for a different cam... found one I liked better from Howard Cams:

• .576/.600 total lift
• 278/282 advertised duration
• 224/229 duration @ .050
• 110 LSA
• 106 ICL

Similar, but probably a little more lopey than what I had or what I picked out.  Valve overlap is 59* and 6.5* @ .050

Got the old camshaft out of the engine.  Three bad lobes.  As expected.

I use a lot of howards cams. That one needs at least 3.50 gears to get the most out of it.

[Cantedvalve 128]

I have 3.89 gears :-)

Found what I think is a video of the camshaft running with open headers:

 

[Cantedvalve 128]

So I was reading about installation... does the 351C need anything extra or different for installation of the roller cam?  I started looking at cam gears... I need to find out from Howard what they recommend.  Then I saw something about Torrington bearings and cam buttons... but I think that is for Chevy's?  I am only looking at what is necessary to get the engine running.  I know you can get different cam plates and use Torrington bearings, but I don't want to do that if I don't need to.

[1969_Mach1 333]

I think you just need to check the camshaft end play.  With flat tappet cams the taper on the lobes serves two purposes and one is to stop the cam from walking front to back.  The lobes on roller cams do not perform that task so correct end play is critical.

Regarding the distributor gear, check with Howard cams.

[barnett468 418]

49 minutes ago, Cantedvalve said:

So I was reading about installation... does the 351C need anything extra or different for installation of the roller cam?  I started looking at cam gears... I need to find out from Howard what they recommend.  Then I saw something about Torrington bearings and cam buttons... but I think that is for Chevy's?  I am only looking at what is necessary to get the engine running.  I know you can get different cam plates and use Torrington bearings, but I don't want to do that if I don't need to.

I use crane melonized gears. They are the best available at the moment.

You do not need a torrington bearing.

If you are replacing the timing gear set, rollmaster is the best overall option. If you are on a budget then a cloyes street master set is good.

Yes, the buttons are for chevy's.

 

[Cantedvalve 128]

Thanks again guys.  I’ll check with Howard’s and check out that crane gear.

[Cantedvalve 128]

Melonized sounds like cancer... sorry, needed something for the repost post