Hi Amps, need serpentine

[69Stanger408 82]

Mach1 Driver - The AC compressor (peanut style) located on the passenger side top, alternator (Power Master) drivers side top, power steering pump (GM Type II) drivers side lower. To each his own on the "Bling", I'm building my dream car, for show and go. Couldn't beat the price from CVF Racing. 

[Mach1 Driver 560]

1 hour ago, 69Stanger408 said:

Mach1 Driver - The AC compressor (peanut style) located on the passenger side top, alternator (Power Master) drivers side top, power steering pump (GM Type II) drivers side lower. To each his own on the "Bling", I'm building my dream car, for show and go. Couldn't beat the price from CVF Racing. 

I'm not dissing your choice, it just doesn't appeal to me. I would keep mine stock if it still did the things I want it to, but it won't so I'll have to make changes and hopefully they can be subtle (or hidden).  Thanks again.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Does anyone know if the new serpentine systems, or even the 90s truck versions can be used on our cars and still have enough room for stock type fans? I feel electrics are too big a departure from stock. I've been looking at this thing for 49 years and changes don't come easy.

[unilec 57]

So it seems you are determined to go with a serpentine belt, although I cannot see why, the main problem people come across with alternator upgrades is the belt wrap, if you look at the picture that Vicfreg posted you can see that he has at least 50 percent belt wrap, i have seen others that have Less than 20 and complain of issues like squeaking and belt slippage. So I would suggest you purchase a 130A alternator and just try it first and as you are looking for more of an original look it would be my first option. 

If you want to determine you total current draw, I would suggest you either buy or borrow a digital DC amp clamp meter or find some one who has one you can borrow, you then need to up the engine revs to about 2000 rpm and switch on one circuit at a time and note the results after you allow that battery, which hopefully is in good condition to recover, a decent battery will "float" at the optimal voltage and really not have a great impact on the alternator output.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

2 hours ago, unilec said:

So it seems you are determined to go with a serpentine belt, although I cannot see why, the main problem people come across with alternator upgrades is the belt wrap, if you look at the picture that Vicfreg posted you can see that he has at least 50 percent belt wrap, i have seen others that have Less than 20 and complain of issues like squeaking and belt slippage. So I would suggest you purchase a 130A alternator and just try it first and as you are looking for more of an original look it would be my first option. 

If you want to determine you total current draw, I would suggest you either buy or borrow a digital DC amp clamp meter or find some one who has one you can borrow, you then need to up the engine revs to about 2000 rpm and switch on one circuit at a time and note the results after you allow that battery, which hopefully is in good condition to recover, a decent battery will "float" at the optimal voltage and really not have a great impact on the alternator output.

The "why" is because of communication with PA Performance who insist that their 130A alternator must use a serpentine belt, not a V belt. One can assume that they know their products and their recommendation is based on a propensity of V belts to slip when their 130A alternator is near peak power.

My method as an electrical engineer is to figure things out before I do them- that's why I made the only full car schematic for these cars (not a wire diagram) and an amperage spreadsheet. I have a multitude of measuring devices and know how to use them.  But experience trumps theory and that's why these forums are so valuable. Thanks for everyone's input.

[det0326 179]

14 hours ago, Mach1 Driver said:

Does anyone know if the new serpentine systems, or even the 90s truck versions can be used on our cars and still have enough room for stock type fans? I feel electrics are too big a departure from stock. I've been looking at this thing for 49 years and changes don't come easy.

Terry 

I am running electric fans with the truck set up that I have, so the old mechanical fan set up is long gone. If it helps I can get a measurement from the water pump mounting hub to the radiator support  panel later today. I know you can get different size spacers that go between the fan blade and water pump or even make your own if necessary . I know on mine the water pump pulley is very close to the electric fan motors. Mine are dual and the water pump pulley is between the motors, if it was a single it would have probably hit. I am not saying it is not doable because with some modification you could make it work but it may not be a plug and play. 

[Vicfreg 771]

The pulley to radiator clearance issue is a critical item that needs to be considered.  I used adjustable motor mounts to make sure I was able to move my engine back as far as possible to avoid interference.  I have maybe an inch clearance in some areas with the serpentine system. A compounding problem was my Vintage Air condenser mounting hardware which butted right up against my radiator.  I had to use "elevator bolts" (l like a T-bolt) to make sure the A/C condenser hardware didn't put a hole in my nice aluminum DeWitt direct fit radiator.   

I also think the CVF price and quality can't be beat.  The strut rod design is ok with me, matter of personal taste.   I see no reason why I would have to do frequent adjustments.   

 

[Mach1 Driver 560]

5 hours ago, det0326 said:

Terry 

I am running electric fans with the truck set up that I have, so the old mechanical fan set up is long gone. If it helps I can get a measurement from the water pump mounting hub to the radiator support  panel later today. I know you can get different size spacers that go between the fan blade and water pump or even make your own if necessary . I know on mine the water pump pulley is very close to the electric fan motors. Mine are dual and the water pump pulley is between the motors, if it was a single it would have probably hit. I am not saying it is not doable because with some modification you could make it work but it may not be a plug and play. 

Thanks Dave, I'd appreciate a measurement when you get time

[Vicfreg 771]

Here is the spreadsheet.  I have a redline copy in my shop, and one of my winter projects is to update it. 

I powered up my electrical system today, and no issues.  But, as I move on to finishing the car, I have found omissions in the AAW kit that continue to cause me to stop and add wiring. Today's example was the light that is in the automatic shifter housing.  It needs to be hooked to the dash light circuit, but that is not explicitly captured in the AAW wiring diagram.   So, I will route a new wire from the "grey" dash light feeds to my shifter light.   I needs to be routed with the neutral safety switch and backup light wires, which for me, run under the car.  

You can IM me and I will send you my phone number, and we can chat about the details in the spreadsheet. Thanks  Vic

 

AAW Wire Tabulation( V8) 1-29-18.xlsx

[det0326 179]

Terry,   I am getting about 6" from the end of the water pump shaft to the radiator support, where the radiator mounts.  My radiator takes up about 3" of that space which only leaves 3" for fan.  That's tight.  

[Mach1 Driver 560]

20 minutes ago, det0326 said:

Terry,   I am getting about 6" from the end of the water pump shaft to the radiator support, where the radiator mounts.  My radiator takes up about 3" of that space which only leaves 3" for fan.  That's tight.  

Yeah Dave, that may not be enough to play with. My stock beast has 4.75 from the front of the water pump pulley where the mount is to the radiator and 0.813 from the back of the fan blade to the nearest obstacle. I'm guessing that around 3.75" may be the minimum needed. Dang, dang dang, this just keeps getting worse- electric fans drag a round 22A with a 57A inrush. I suppose motor controllers can soften the inrush. But still I'm really not liking this.

[det0326 179]

If you decide to try this route there maybe a combination of water pump and serpentine pulley that may work for you I don't know. Like maybe a 90's mustang water pump and pulley. Whatever tho if you find a shorter pump shaft the pulley would have to be offset to accommodate it to keep the belt alignment . 

[Vicfreg 771]

I used a pulse width modulation (PWM) fan controller for this very reason.  It measures temperature (in line) at the bottom radiator hose.  The fans do a soft start and slowly speed up, based on the temperature.   They don't cycle on and off like they would with a conventional temperature switch and relays.  I ran them on my engine test stand and was able to control the engine temperature where I wanted it.  I used the controller from the "Auto Cool Guy".  It is industrial strength equipment used on military and diesel trucks.  Works great, easy to hook up.  I tried the Derale controller, but the temperature probe needs to stick into the radiator fins, and did not fit.

I would not worry about the amperage of the alternator.   Get the biggest one that fits, and run large wires.  Make sure it is protected with a fusible link or MIDI fuse.  Most single wire alternator kits come with that.  My AAW wiring kit also came ready to run for a single wire alternator.  

If you are running a stroker, like I am, cooling is king, and big fans are required.

 

[Vicfreg 771]

Here is a picture of mine.  The 2 fan Maradyne setup clears the waterpump pulley completely.  My closest pulley is the power steering pump which is about an inch away from the drivers side fan motor.

[Vicfreg 771]

some better pictures here, hope it helps.   If my fan was in the center, the fan would hit the water pump pulley for sure.   I have about an inch clearance between the serpentine system and the closest stationary object....     I have about another 1/2" I could gain if I did not have A/C, and didn't have to worry about the A/C condenser hardware hitting my radiator...

[Mach1 Driver 560]

Thanks for the pictures vicfreq. The spreadsheet you posted doesn't match the description on page 11(?) of your build so I'll need to get back to you on that but we are a little busy right now. Thanks for all the input.

It looks like you've got a Fitech command center- how do you like their EFI?

[Vicfreg 771]

Hi Mach1, yeah I have modified the spreadsheet in the last year, so removed some columns I found I wasn't using.  If you have questions, send them my way.

I have not run the FiTech yet.  I found it easy to install.  When I started my project a few years back, I did not envision fuel injection.  As the systems started to get less expensive, I decided to go with EFI.  I had already finished my custom trunk woodworking, so did not want to pull that out to remove the gas tank, which is what most of the systems needed.   So, I chose the FiTech, as it had the Fuel Command Center.  That, as you know, has had a lot of issues with overheating of the fuel.  So, I modified my Fuel Command Center, and will use the vent line as the return line.  Now I have to run a steel return line.  This is essentially what the Fuel Command Center II is.  I have friends with the FiTech, and they really like the features, and the handheld (not laptop) programming interface.  

Another unforeseen issue is the FiTech (like all the EFI systems) needs an external square wave tach signal as a RPM reference.  I was using a Pertronix III plug and play single wire billet distributor, as it was small, self contained, and looked OEM.   The P III has a built in MSD box, and does not have a "clean" external tach reference.  So, I called Pertronix and had to buy their external ignition module, called the DHP.   That has a separate square wave output for a tach/EFI system.  I used that on my engine test stand, and it worked great with a modern tachometer.      Anyway, if I had to do it all over again, I would go with the MSD Atomic and their ignition system, or the Holley system, and use an in tank fuel pump.   

Once I get my exhaust built over the winter, I will be starting and tuning the FiTech system.  I will post progress on my thread....

[Mach1 Driver 560]

1 hour ago, Vicfreg said:

So, I called Pertronix and had to buy their external ignition module, called the DHP.   That has a separate square wave output for a tach/EFI system.  I used that on my engine test stand, and it worked great with a modern tachometer.

The DHP doesn't appear on their site, even with a search. I'm interested in Holley's Sniper, and like all the EFIs it doesn't like points either, as it doesn't get a clean tach signal. However you can use PertronixII as a points replacement and that signal will work with the Sniper.

I'll see if your description from page 11 of your build makes more sense now that I know columns have been deleted. Thanks

[Vicfreg 771]

Right if you use a Pertronix II that will work.  I mis-named their ignition box, it is the Digital HP.      http://www.moreignition.com/

 

I think the Holley is a good choice.....

[gordonr 4]

Mach1 Driver, I don't see the necessity of a 130 amp unit if you stay away from radiator fans. Also the lack of heated seats and rear window defrost really suggest to me you can keep the standard V belt with a 100 amp alternator and keep the "Electrical Gods" happy.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

1 hour ago, gordonr said:

Mach1 Driver, I don't see the necessity of a 130 amp unit if you stay away from radiator fans. Also the lack of heated seats and rear window defrost really suggest to me you can keep the standard V belt with a 100 amp alternator and keep the "Electrical Gods" happy.

Well, everyone has their own opinion.

I based my opinion on the amperage spreadsheet, and the break-even speed where battery power is no longer needed. There isn't any guess work, the variable is what you turn on, and that is shown. 

I haven't given up- BUT no one has mentioned using a dual groove V belt pulley. I had to stand in front of the car for a while before I went "WELL DUH!!!" The alternator pulley is closest to the engine. The next one out is for the power steering. They both have the same diameter crankshaft pulley. All I have to do is get a longer power steering belt and make it reach over to a second groove on the alternator pulley on the other side of the engine. No new water pump or crankshaft pulleys are needed. The A/C pulleys are not affected. I talked with PA Performance and they said that a 130A alternator will work with a two groove pulley and they sell them that way. This would be a really easy way to eliminate the need for a serpentine system, electric fans, new Sanden type A/C compressor and potentially a different PS pump. The car will look almost completely stock, have around 100 more amps available, and is exactly what I'm looking for.

[Vicfreg 771]

2 groove is a great idea!!

[lanky 44]

Just for the sake of conversation, I've been running a 130A alternator with factory bracket setup (just made an intermediate bracket). With my contour fans, upgraded headlights, 2 additional fuseboxes etc no signs of belt slippage. I used a late model alternator and swapped my pulley over. To be added later is an ignition box, and if I ever have the money maybe efi...