Hi Amps, need serpentine

[Mach1 Driver 560]

I've been over the numbers and the facts are inescapable; the electrical load requires a 130A alternator. I'm planning on a Sniper EFI, fuel pump, Dakota Digital dash, a 4R70W transmission control, and halogen headlights. All other lights will be LED, but If you're running at night with the A/C and radio on it breaks down like this (wipers would only make it worse):

1. With a 95A alternator the break even point is 32.6 mph in high gear or 48.9 mph in overdrive. Anything less than that and you're pulling it out of the battery. This alternator uses a V belt.

2. With a 130A alternator, break even is 24.5 mph in high or 36.7 mph in overdrive. This alternator requires a serpentine belt, or two V belts. 

I'm not sure why they call these 95A or 130A, as it has nothing to do with their actual rating. The calculation involves pulley size, engine RPM, tire diameter, transmission and rear gear size. My problem is I really hate all the billet and bling of a serpentine system. It looks like Charo doing the Cuchi Cuchi with a beer can. My problem is further complicated by all the accessories: alternator, water pump, power steering, and A/C.

What serpentine or dual V belt systems have you guys used on a 351W with these accessories?

 

[det0326 179]

1991 Bronco that had a 351W in it. F series would work also. The brackets are aluminum but could be painted black. The only problem is if you intend to use stock 1969 Mustang A/C compressor the set up won't work you would have to change to a FS10 style.  I use all the Bronco accessories, I think it had a 95A alternator.     

[Mach1 Driver 560]

3 hours ago, det0326 said:

1991 Bronco that had a 351W in it. F series would work also. The brackets are aluminum but could be painted black. The only problem is if you intend to use stock 1969 Mustang A/C compressor the set up won't work you would have to change to a FS10 style.  I use all the Bronco accessories, I think it had a 95A alternator.     

Thanks Dave, but I can slip a 95A alternator into the existing brackets with no changes to anything. Since I need to go bigger than 95A ( you can see why above) and the next step is 130A, I will need a serpentine or dual V belt for that.

Of course if I never drove at night in traffic, or in the rain I wouldn't need all that power from the alternator.

[1969_Mach1 333]

My 1995 F150 with a 351W originally came with a small case 3G 95A alternator.  About 15 years ago I replaced it with a large case 3G 130A alternator.  It fits just fine.  Same serpentine belt fits as well.

I agree, I don't like the looks of the aftermarket billet aluminum serpentine kits as well.

[gordonr 4]

Could you list out the current draw of each system your going use? Keep in mind 70 to 80 amps is what max output would be at idle with most hi output passenger car charging systems.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

4 hours ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

My 1995 F150 with a 351W originally came with a small case 3G 95A alternator.  About 15 years ago I replaced it with a large case 3G 130A alternator.  It fits just fine.  Same serpentine belt fits as well.

I agree, I don't like the looks of the aftermarket billet aluminum serpentine kits as well.

Where are the accessories? My A/C is up high on the drivers side, the PS pump in low on the drivers side, and the alternator is low on the passenger side.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

2 minutes ago, gordonr said:

Could you list out the current draw of each system your going use? Keep in mind 70 to 80 amps is what max output would be at idle with most hi output passenger car charging systems.

yes, but I'll have to clean-up the spreadsheet first so it makes sense to someone else. The so called 95A alternator is only 60A at a crank speed of 794 rpm, while the 130A puts out 80A at the same rpm.

[MN69Grande 203]

Why do you need a  serpentine or double v belt setup?   For the last 2 years i have run a 130a alternator out of a windstar on a single v belt and it seems to work.  I just have a set of March pulleys and it all seems fine.

[danno 128]

 

1 hour ago, MN69Grande said:

Why do you need a  serpentine or double v belt setup?   For the last 2 years i have run a 130a alternator out of a windstar on a single v belt and it seems to work.  I just have a set of March pulleys and it all seems fine.

I would be interested in seeing this setup.  Are you around this weekend to meet for a cup of coffee or a beer?  I forgot about the previous time. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

3 hours ago, Mach1 Driver said:

Where are the accessories? My A/C is up high on the drivers side, the PS pump in low on the drivers side, and the alternator is low on the passenger side.

On mine the A/C compressor and P/S pump are in the same location as yours.  But,the alternator is up high on the passenger side and there is a smog pump low on the passenger side.  I think the smog pump was on all 5.8L motors for 1995.  The 5.0L motors didn't need a smog pump to meet emissions requirements.  Either that or it's because its a California truck with California emissions.  I have seen smog pump eliminator kits.  Basically a pulley and mounting bracket assembly that replaces the smog pump.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

11 hours ago, MN69Grande said:

Why do you need a  serpentine or double v belt setup?   For the last 2 years i have run a 130a alternator out of a windstar on a single v belt and it seems to work.  I just have a set of March pulleys and it all seems fine.

I looked at PA Performance alternators. They caution that you must use a serpentine with their 130A alternator because a single V belt will slip when the alternator is under heavy load.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

8 hours ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

On mine the A/C compressor and P/S pump are in the same location as yours.  But,the alternator is up high on the passenger side and there is a smog pump low on the passenger side.  I think the smog pump was on all 5.8L motors for 1995.  The 5.0L motors didn't need a smog pump to meet emissions requirements.  Either that or it's because its a California truck with California emissions.  I have seen smog pump eliminator kits.  Basically a pulley and mounting bracket assembly that replaces the smog pump.

That would work- the hoses should be the same lengths, and the alternator up high isn't a problem either. Is this one or more serpentine belts?

[MN69Grande 203]

1 hour ago, Mach1 Driver said:

I looked at PA Performance alternators. They caution that you must use a serpentine with their 130A alternator because a single V belt will slip when the alternator is under heavy load.

That might make sense.  Currently I only run dual cooling fans, factory headlights, some additional gauges, a gear vendors controller and an aftermarket stereo so could be my loads aren't getting up there yet.  This winter I'm hoping to add AC back.  Then maybe it will be too much.  But really I get some squeal when the car starts but it doesn't last more than 5-10 seconds.  I do have to tighten the belt once a year though.

That said again March Performance has some Black Serpentine kits you might want to consider.  Looks like with PS and AC a Black kit start around $800 for the simple kit.  If you are a ways out from getting it together it looks like they are putting together new economy kits that might be worth asking about.  If it Drops a couple hundred more I might be inclined to upgrade.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

23 hours ago, gordonr said:

Could you list out the current draw of each system your going use? Keep in mind 70 to 80 amps is what max output would be at idle with most hi output passenger car charging systems.

see attached Excel spreadsheet

Mustang amps4.xls

[gordonr 4]

I like your spreadsheet. There are a couple items that need clarifying though. 1st there is a wild card you haven't listed and that is the battery. It is a load. It can draw as little as 5 amps (a sulfated battery) all the way up 40-50 amps (low charge state due to a drain overnight or a charging issue generally). Avg current draw is 8-12 amps. 2nd is the lighting. I could expect max total lighting current draw at 21 amps. But the front lower park lights are out with head lights on so subtract. To get an accurate amp spec from your car the associated wiring  and switches will cause voltage drops and lower the current or the motors such as blower, radiator fan, wiper, fuel pump can draw more or less. If you have an amp clamp handy wrap it around the main battery power feeding to the solenoid. Battery charger attached engine off for lighting and motors. leave  the EFI systems out. Do those test running and clamp main associated with those circuits. For battery current draw battery, charger off and engine running, leave clamp on the same cable and read.  

[Cantedvalve 128]

Wait... are footwell lights different on a 1969 vs. a 1970?  You have a 1156 variant listed.  Mine is a goofy looking festoon thing.

[aslanefe 333]

22 minutes ago, Cantedvalve said:

Wait... are footwell lights different on a 1969 vs. a 1970?  You have a 1156 variant listed.  Mine is a goofy looking festoon thing.

As I remember, 1970 uses the bullet type bulb while the 1969 uses regular twist type bulb.

[Cantedvalve 128]

Yeah, that is what I am seeing.  The bulbs I got for LED replacements dont look like the ones I took out.  Here are stock:

Here is what SBL.com recommended:

[Mach1 Driver 560]

22 hours ago, gordonr said:

I like your spreadsheet. There are a couple items that need clarifying though. 1st there is a wild card you haven't listed and that is the battery. It is a load. It can draw as little as 5 amps (a sulfated battery) all the way up 40-50 amps (low charge state due to a drain overnight or a charging issue generally). Avg current draw is 8-12 amps. 2nd is the lighting. I could expect max total lighting current draw at 21 amps. But the front lower park lights are out with head lights on so subtract. To get an accurate amp spec from your car the associated wiring  and switches will cause voltage drops and lower the current or the motors such as blower, radiator fan, wiper, fuel pump can draw more or less. If you have an amp clamp handy wrap it around the main battery power feeding to the solenoid. Battery charger attached engine off for lighting and motors. leave  the EFI systems out. Do those test running and clamp main associated with those circuits. For battery current draw battery, charger off and engine running, leave clamp on the same cable and read.  

I concede your point that batteries are a load, but I think your numbers are high. I get about 3.5A on my old Die Hard at 14v when charged (which typically means its on its way out). My Red Top Optima is less than a year old and drags about 2A at 14v when charged.

Lets “assume” the battery is in good shape and the alternator is sized to service all the loads of the car. Perhaps the biggest load is the starter. How long would it take to recharge the battery after starting the car? Lets be conservative and assume it takes 10 seconds to start the car and the starter uses 800 amps. So 10 seconds times 800 amps is 8000 amp-seconds (8000 coulombs for you physicists) or 2.2 amp-hours. If the alternator is sourcing 80 amps, this will be replaced in 99 seconds.

As far as the lighting goes, the headlights will be halogen and everything else will be LEDs. The halogens will connect directly to the battery via relays with less than 8 feet of 12 gauge wire. The 21.252A in cell B41 is just the headlights on hi beams at 14v, since the alternator is sure to be charging. I’m old, live in a rural area and love hi beams.

The “other” lights noted would pull 15.088A if they were incandescent, but since they are LEDs they only pull a combined 2.18A. Since the LEDs are using circuits designed for incandescents and cumulatively run at only 14.4% of the designed load, I am not concerned about the voltage drop.

Yes the front park lights are out, as shown in cell C48. However, the rear park/on circuit (cell B49) is active, not by park but because the light switch is “on”.

The spreadsheet loads are from three sources:

1) Everything down to line 60 (except LEDs) are actual measured amps using a digital ammeter in series with the load, with the car charging at 14.46v as indicated in cell C5. I dislike inductive ammeters because their resolution and accuracy is lacking. So what you see is what I get in the circuit with its corresponding voltage drop.

2) LEDs: since I don’t have them yet I used manufacturer’s data.

3) Added Stuff: from line 61 down, I also don’t have this stuff and used 80% of their fuse size as the amp draw. In reality they probably run somewhere between 50-70%.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

3 hours ago, Cantedvalve said:

Yeah, that is what I am seeing.  The bulbs I got for LED replacements dont look like the ones I took out.  Here are stock:

Here is what SBL.com recommended:

huh, interesting: that is similar to the lights in the doors of my 69

[69Stanger408 82]

I have the Wraptor from CVF Racing. 408 Stroker, 4R70W Trans, Dakota Digital, Holley Sniper & Holley Tank, Holley Dual Sync Dist, Vintage Air, Optima Red top

[Mach1 Driver 560]

20 minutes ago, 69Stanger408 said:

I have the Wraptor from CVF Racing. 408 Stroker, 4R70W Trans, Dakota Digital, Holley Sniper & Holley Tank, Holley Dual Sync Dist, Vintage Air, Optima Red top

Wow, around and around it goes and where it stops nobody knows! That's a long way from the stock look. Is that the A/C on the drivers side top? Vintage Air rotary compressor? No offense, but that's a lot of bling, and those big arms over the top. This is what I want to avoid if possible. I'm not sure that the systems used in the mid 90s F-150s is that much better though. Thanks for the pic.

[Vicfreg 771]

I have a 140 amp alternator and a CVF pulley system.  Made in US, great quality, great price.  It is installed on my Windsor Based 393 Stroker.

More details on my 1970 Convertible Restoration thread...lots of electrical stuff in my car, trunk mounted battery, etc....

I this pic, I have the power steering pump bypassed so I could run it on the engine test stand.

https://www.cvfracing.com/black-ford-5-0l-5-8l-serpentine-conversion-kit-ac-alternator-power-steering/

 

[Mach1 Driver 560]

11 hours ago, Vicfreg said:

I have a 140 amp alternator and a CVF pulley system.  Made in US, great quality, great price.  It is installed on my Windsor Based 393 Stroker.

More details on my 1970 Convertible Restoration thread...lots of electrical stuff in my car, trunk mounted battery, etc....

I this pic, I have the power steering pump bypassed so I could run it on the engine test stand.

https://www.cvfracing.com/black-ford-5-0l-5-8l-serpentine-conversion-kit-ac-alternator-power-steering/

 

Thanks Vicfreg, I like the black much better than billet bling. It looks like the system relies on turnbuckles instead of a tensioner. I wonder if this will require periodic adjustment? The old v-belt systems don't but they don't have belts this long. I wonder if they make a version for my old York compressor. I went to your build thread and got interested in the spreadsheet that you used for wiring on page 11 (I'm an engineer too), but I couldn't view it. Could you post it here? Maybe it'll spark some ideas for me. Thanks

[gordonr 4]

I measured the current draw off my systems with a power supply that maintains exactly 14vdc . My 69 has stock factory wiring in very nice condition.Only mods are that I changed out the head lights for Wagner halogens and replaced the rear tail light bulbs with plasma leds.

Park lights and dash illumination on max bright (all bulbs in dash illum operate)   5.82 amps

Head lights on low                                                        5.3 amps

Head lights on Hi                                                            12 amps

Brake lights (plasma led)                                              .5 amps

Factory A/C  Blower motor                                           15 amps

Factory A/C compressor clutch                                     3 amps

As far as how long it takes for a battery to recover from a starting sequence I would say a few minutes. The largest current eaters that I come across are cooling fans. For some reason they are set to come on at a low temps and basically never shut off which does lower alternator life. Also I would wire A high pressure switch for the a/c fan actuation as it doesnt need to run at at speed. 

In general I will always recommend the largest capacity alternator that fits and looks good. Going larger is a good thing.