Help with idenfifying my Cam

[barnett468 418]

26 minutes ago, bigmal said:

I understand what you're saying but unfortunately I am over budget already. It was only intended to be a head change and re-balance. It would be nice to  do a lot more and get the best out of the engine that's not an option this time around. Bare in mind out $ is crap compared to the USD so we pay double what you do.

it has very little to do with money because dished pistons cost the same as flat top pistons. if the shop ordered the wrong pistons for your heads, your compression will either be too high, in which case you will be back here asking how you can stop your engine from pinking, in which case we will tell you to lower the compression, or it will be less than is optimal which is a waste of taking the engine apart and defeats your purpose of getting more bottom end power. you can either get me the info i asked for, or take your chances, unless the shop has already calculated what your compression will be but they would have had to cc your heads to do that which they didn't do, and it should only cost all of around $10.00 just to check one chamber.

 

[JET 445 43]

Mal you need to listen to Barnett on this one, those heads are most likely Aussie 302 cleveland  and they have very small chambers, around 57cc and will probably not work with flat top pistons, I've tried it and they pinged like crazy, had to enlarge them a bit to lower the comp. Much easier to just start with the correct pistons to match your heads.

[bigmal 225]

Thanks Jet and Barnett. I’m talking to my engine guy at the moment.

[Cantedvalve 128]

Oooo.. Aussie heads!  Those are the best of both worlds.  My next build is going to use those... I had a set, but sold them.  Wish I hadn’t.

[barnett468 418]

4 hours ago, bigmal said:

Thanks Jet and Barnett. I’m talking to my engine guy at the moment.

No prob, we are simply trying to save you from a possible huge mistake. Around a bazillion aussies have put the aussie heads on 351 clevos with flat top pistons and lots of them had pinging issues. I also saw this issue on the aussie 351 Clevo forum i used to post on quite a bit. I know a lot about clevos and they are not like any other engine and hsve a few unique issues including a problem with the oiling system and the front cam bearing being installed to deep allowing a large portion of the oil hole to be ecposed. If you look at your ftont cam bearing you will see part of an ool hole just in front of it that the bearing does not vover. The derper the bearing is jnstalled, the more of this hole that is exposed which allows oil to jurl out of it like a volcano. The new melling oil oumpops have a problem with the byoass valve sticking and the factory t stat system sucjs and sometimes causes overheating issues ir it often has the wrong t stat in it ehich can also xause problems. As far as more compression increasing torque goes, yes this is true in general, but it is not quite true that smaller ports will increase torque as many people falsely believe. That is another very long anf involved subject. There is suvh a yhing as too little of something as well as too much of something. Bigger is not always best and smalleat is not always best. The right size is always best but obviously the secret is to know what the right size is for a particular app or at least know how to determine what the right size should be etc.

[barnett468 418]

Quote

 

 

5 hours ago, Cantedvalve said:

Oooo.. Aussie heads!  Those are the best of both worlds.  My next build is going to use those... I had a set, but sold them.  Wish I hadn’t.

You need to port them to get the most out of them if you want a high perf 351 engine because they are a bit lame in stock form which is why they were used on 302 engines. They are decent stock heads for a 302 but not so decent in stock form for any type of performance 351. There is a company in the us called powerheads.com that was and still seems to be porting and selling the aussie heads and they were getting big power from them but they are $2000.00 a pair and for that price or a bit more money, I would rather have some aluminum heads. Some of the best aluminum clevo heads are scott cook and chi. A few true clevo gurus are scott cook  scott main, tim meyer and george pence and dan jones. Dan has done a lot of dyno testing comparing different parts back to back. Below is an intake comparison test he did.

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/911102633

 

[barnett468 418]

Here's 2 us sites that are dedicated solely to Clevelands and Clevor's.

This is a new site someone from the old network54 cleveland site started. Sadly, the netwrok54.com site is no longer accessible and all that info is lost.

http://351c.net/board/index.php

 

This site has a lot of info.

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums

 

[bigmal 225]

Just a quick update. And thanks everyone for your advice. I do listen to everything and take it on board.

I have been chasing an engine vibration for almost a year and it got to the point that a strip and balance was the next logical step.

when stripping the engine I discovered it had a Crane cam and was seaking advice on it’s characteristics. The engine was not stripped with a major upgrade in mind as I don’t have the budget for it.

The engine has never been a startling performer. I received advice from numerous people who seemed to be in the know, saying that the 4V open chamber heads are not suited to low end torque and that I should fit 2V closed chamber heads. As I heard this from quite a few people I sourced a set of 2V heads and had them overhauled. I have not CCed them yet but will do so before I assemble the engine. This was the only performance upgrade I was looking at but as the engine was being stripped I did consider a mild cam. At this stage I am planning on keeping the Crane cam that is fitted.

i understand that this is a good opportunity to build a better engine but that is not an option at this stage. Down the track I may revisit that but not this time.

The worst part of this is that I got a call from the engine shop yesterday and the engine is ‘in balance’. This was really disappointing news and I am now trying to work out where to go next. Considering torque converter but have conflicting views on whether this can cause my balance issue. I will be talking to a transmission shop to see if they can service/balance it. at $500 to replace it I would like to be confident that it is the issue.

 I am aware my FMX is not in great condition and had previously made metal but need to hold out as I can’t justify the $2000 for a rebuild at this point. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

What I started to post earlier but then deleted was that is sounds like you have a pretty good motor and rear axle gear combination right now.  It might be best at this time to simply work with what you have.  Maybe a torque convertor with a slightly higher stall speed to eliminate that lunging when the trans is put into gear.  But with your trans in the condition it's in, you might have to put that of until later as well.  Your current cam should work fine with power brakes.  Keep in mind, sometimes if the carb idle is too lean, the idle speed will have be higher than necessary to keep the motor idling while in gear.  When you eventually get to the point of tuning again, sometimes adjusting the A/F mixture with the trans in gear will help.

I've only known a couple of people with basically stock 4 barrel Cleveland motors and they had the same complaint as you, not much low end power. 

[barnett468 418]

8 hours ago, bigmal said:

Just a quick update. And thanks everyone for your advice. I do listen to everything and take it on board.

I have been chasing an engine vibration for almost a year and it got to the point that a strip and balance was the next logical step.

when stripping the engine I discovered it had a Crane cam and was seaking advice on it’s characteristics. The engine was not stripped with a major upgrade in mind as I don’t have the budget for it.

The engine has never been a startling performer. I received advice from numerous people who seemed to be in the know, saying that the 4V open chamber heads are not suited to low end torque and that I should fit 2V closed chamber heads. As I heard this from quite a few people I sourced a set of 2V heads and had them overhauled. I have not CCed them yet but will do so before I assemble the engine. This was the only performance upgrade I was looking at but as the engine was being stripped I did consider a mild cam. At this stage I am planning on keeping the Crane cam that is fitted.

i understand that this is a good opportunity to build a better engine but that is not an option at this stage. Down the track I may revisit that but not this time.

The worst part of this is that I got a call from the engine shop yesterday and the engine is ‘in balance’. This was really disappointing news and I am now trying to work out where to go next. Considering torque converter but have conflicting views on whether this can cause my balance issue. I will be talking to a transmission shop to see if they can service/balance it. at $500 to replace it I would like to be confident that it is the issue.

 I am aware my FMX is not in great condition and had previously made metal but need to hold out as I can’t justify the $2000 for a rebuild at this point. 

well again, the point is that there is no point in assembling the engine if you have the small cc heads and the shop bought flat top pistons because it will ping. It is the shops responsibility to order correct pistons. If they order the wrong ones, they must get the right ones at no cost to you. That is how it is supposed to work and if it doesn't work that way at that shop I suggest you go to another one where it does work that way. If you told them you had big chamber heads and they ordered flat top pistons, and you then change to small chamber heads, that is a different story.

Anyone that says the 4v heads won't produce decent low end torque are either over dramatizing the issue or are simply clueless. It is really that simple. I have had countless cleveland cars and built many 4v cleveland engines and they all ran well. Ford made about 2 1/2 bazillion 4v cleveland cars and not a single one ran "poorly" when floored from a dead stop, and that is a fact, although the boss 351's I have had definitely had less low end power than a regular 4v cleveland.

It is illogical for one to think Ford would produce 2 1/2 bazillion cars that ran like crap when they were floored. Unfortunately, way too many people want to seem like an expert but very few are, and it sounds like the "experts" you are referring to forgot to mention that your engine will likely ping with flat top pistons and aussie 302 cleveland heads.

 

[barnett468 418]

"The worst part of this is that I got a call from the engine shop yesterday and the engine is ‘in balance’. This was really disappointing news and I am now trying to work out where to go next. Considering torque converter but have conflicting views on whether this can cause my balance issue. I will be talking to a transmission shop to see if they can service/balance it. at $500 to replace it I would like to be confident that it is the issue."

Well you need to run a converter that has a higher stall than a stock one if you keep that cam if you want it to idle properly.

 

[barnett468 418]

Here are some rough guestimates.

BORE ......................................................................................... 4.0

STROKE .................................................................................... 3.5

FLAT TOP PISTON VALVE RELIEF SIZE .................................. 2.0

GASKET BORE .......................................................................... 4.1

COMPRESSED GASKET THICKNESS ...................................... 0.041

COMBUSTION CHAMBER SIZE ............................................. 58.0

DECK HEIGHT ........................................................................... 0.015

STATIC COMPRESSION .......................................................... 11.02 + IRON HEADS + 015" DECK HEIGHT (.057" SQUISH CLEARANCE) + 3.25 GEAR RATIO = PING LIKE A PACHINKO MACHINE

 

If your pistons are at least 10 cc's they will be ok with the cam you have as it will have around 10.1 compression.

 

Also, if the weight of the pistons is much different than the old ones, they need to rebalance it.

 

[RogerC 136]

8 hours ago, barnett468 said:

Anyone that says the 4v heads won't produce decent low end torque are either over dramatizing the issue or are simply clueless. It is really that simple. I have had countless cleveland cars and built many 4v cleveland engines and they all ran well. Ford made about 2 1/2 bazillion 4v cleveland cars and not a single one ran "poorly" when floored from a dead stop, and that is a fact, although the boss 351's I have had definitely had less low end power than a regular 4v cleveland.

 

X2

I've also found the forums and people you've referenced very helpful in the past and also recommend them.

[bigmal 225]

Another question. Getting ready to assemble the engine and noticed the crankshaft sprocket can go on three ways. I'm pretty sure it was with the '0' over the keyway but not positive.

Any advice?

Also what are the other options for?

Thanks.

[Brian Conway 264]

Yes the O marks your keyway.  The others usually indicate 4* advanced or 4* retarded.  Brian

[barnett468 418]

Yes,  R =retard, A = advance.

[bigmal 225]

Thanks guys. Another question. how does this oil slinger fit? I should have paid more attention when pulling it apart.

I will give an update of the rebuild on another blog shortly. Ended doing more than I originally wanted.

 

[barnett468 418]

Just the way you have it facing so it sticks outward.

[bigmal 225]

And the next question...

As I was given no history with the car it makes it difficult to work out what it has. Could I get some help with the dizzy such as:

Is it an original dizzy modified?

What type of unit is it and where would I get parts?
Are they any good?

Does it take a standard dizzy cap and rotor?
Thank.

[barnett468 418]

 

70 351C Mustang Torino 4v ST AT Imco

It has an aftermarket pertronix I unit installed.

it would have originally had a dual chamber vacuum advance.

its a stock distributor and they work decent if the shaft bushing is not worn excessively, and the timing curve is adjustable with different springs from mr gasket p/n 925D, and there is 2 settings for the total amount of advance it can provide.

what parts do you need for it?

[bigmal 225]

9 hours ago, barnett468 said:

 

70 351C Mustang Torino 4v ST AT Imco

It has an aftermarket pertronix I unit installed.

it would have originally had a dual chamber vacuum advance.

its a stock distributor and they work decent if the shaft bushing is not worn excessively, and the timing curve is adjustable with different springs from mr gasket p/n 925D, and there is 2 settings for the total amount of advance it can provide.

what parts do you need for it?

Thanks for that. Don't need any parts at the moment but just like to know what I have.