heads questions

[fnoble 0]

I have a rust  free69 Nevada Coupe 302 (you know the old saying, cars and girlfriends,  you want to start with the nicest body you can possibly afford) , what heads do I use? it has d o o e 302 heads, flat top pistons but the bore will need to be cut  20 over. I have the entire car to restore so I can't spend it all on the engine but, I found a pair of 351 d00e heads for $350, other options seem to be, gt40- low compression, gt40p-  spark plug concern. aluminum heads pretty expensive, anyone use the skip white heads? planning a driver that would be able to cruise anywhere  if I want to. looking at aod, have an Explorer I can pull the 373 locking out of, want to keep under .500 for cam lift not sure about duration roller rockers. probably Edelbrock performance intake would like an AVS 500 seems a little small but the 650avs seems a little big. I would appreciate any Tech advice you guys can give me.

[barnett468 418]

i have done this a few times and as recently as 6 months ago and it is a bit more complicated than it may seem. i can post more info later, but for now here is some.

i would get pistons with bigger valve reliefs just to insure that the valves won't hit the pistons, but others here may have put those heads on engines with stock pistons and a hi perf cam, and if so, they will know about the piston to valve clearance.

since you are having the engine rebuilt, i would have it zero decked. this will reduce the potential for detonation and will also allow you to run slightly more compression.

there is a bulge in the exhaust port on some of the 351 heads and they will flow slightly better if this is ground down.

you should install screw in rocker arm studs or install pins in the stock studs to insure that they will not pull up with a higher lift cam, especially if you install stiffer valve springs. speedway has pins for the studs.

the combustion chamber volume of the heads should be measured so you can calculate compression as you may want to mill the heads some to increase it.

if you use the stock 351 rocker studs, you will need slightly different length push rods. i have the correct length around here somewhere and i can post it later if no one else does. i use manly push rods for this application and they are reasonably priced.

if you are looking for a performance cam, i and others can make suggestions for that also if you supply your gear ratio and intended use of the car.

comp cams makes budget, long slot rocker arms if you need them, otherwise scorpions are the most popular but more expensive.

 

THERMACTOR BOSS ATTACHED TO VALVE GUIDE REDUCING EXHAUST FLOW

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. THERMACTOR BOSS GROUND AWAY AND EXHAUST PORT ENLARGED A LITTLE

 

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[1969_Mach1 333]

The 351W D00E heads are good.  I will only add get some pricing to do all the work that they need before committing to using them.  They are usually worn fairly bad and cost can add up fairly fast.  Screw in studs, valve guide liners, possibly some new valves, springs, retainers, locks, seals, depending on valve spring requirements possibly some valve guide and spring seat machine work, if you plan to drive the car a lot hard exhaust seats are often advised because of todays unleaded fuel.  I reused my C9OE heads mainly because I didn't have to pay full retail for all the machine work they needed. 

[barnett468 418]

 

here's some other head options . i'm 87.369% certain that the $946.00 price for the eddy e street heads is for 2, however, if it is for just one, they are smokin crack. they would be my first choice for a budget build. the eddy heads come with either 1.90 or 2.02 intake valves, for a mild build i would use the ones with the 1.90

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-5023/overview/make/for0

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wrl-053030-1/overview/

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-51410004-m61/overview/make/ford

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-51410010-m61/overview/make/ford

 

i wouldn't use an eddy performer intake for any type of performance build because it is little more than a copy of the cast iron ford one but the weiand street warrior below is decent for mild builds or an eddy rpm.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wnd-8124wnd/overview/make/ford

i also wouldn't use an avs carb but of course some people like them.

 

 

 

[sixt9stang 36]

The e-street price is for 2. I am thinking of going with them. Might be worth the $700 or so more to step up to the AFR 165 heads.

[barnett468 418]

54 minutes ago, sixt9stang said:

The e-street price is for 2. I am thinking of going with them. Might be worth the $700 or so more to step up to the AFR 165 heads.

ok, the e street heads have light valve springs and should not be use with cams that have over around .500 or .550 lift and if you use a roller cam you should keep the lift below .500 and the rpm below around 5500, otherwise the valves may float.

 

[Rsanter 152]

I used to port and rebuild heads all the time. It was good money for a while.

since the newer wave of aftermarket heads have come out, not that many people are willing to pay to have their heads ported.

 

personally I see your situation two ways, port what you have and rebuild them. You can even do the porting yourself.

or just but aftermarket heads ready to go.

if you price the difference between new valves, port Work, hard seats, labor, etc, you may find there is little difference between the rebuilt heads and the new aluminum heads

[69volunteer 84]

On 9/3/2018 at 12:07 PM, Rsanter said:

if you price the difference between new valves, port Work, hard seats, labor, etc, you may find there is little difference between the rebuilt heads and the new aluminum heads

I think if you farm the work out to a machine shop, the rebuilt heads will be MORE than the eddy heads.

[fnoble 0]

 I bought a pair of C90E 69 351 heads that need completely redone. the heads I have on my car , a 69 302 coupe, are C00E the 58.2 cc  that I could grind the bump out of and port mildly . my machinist is telling me don’t use the 351s because they will reduce the velocity a lot and lose my bottom end completely. I’m going AOD I’ll probably go either 355 or 373 rear  Will the GT 40 or P heads also lose velocity? I’m doing a daily driver. Do I rebuild the 8 inch rear end to 355 or 380? currently it’s 279 gears. I have a 95 explorer 8.8 with 373 locking.  Any insight would be greatly appreciated . Looking at Stock bottom about 9.5 compression and performer four barrel intake thinking the Edelbrock AVS 500 or 600. edelbrock tells me five is better for torque and mileage.  I will defer to the experts here .

[1969_Mach1 333]

I can't offer much in suggestions for parts.  Your machinist is right about the 351W heads on your 302.  With that said, my thoughts have always been if low end torque is critical you need more cubic inches (longer stroke).  Building a small block for a low end torque motor isn't the most ideal.

[fnoble 0]

Thank you for the response, I don't want to build this as a racer simply want a car I can drive to California and back.i want  a solid daily driver 302.  any guidance on how I should build that? torque isn't really my goal, just want a solid daily driver that isn't a dog. 50 years since it was built there must be some new secrets for better than stock performance. Have 302 block and 1970 d0oe 58.2 cc heads, am I missing any good options for a 69 coupe driver? 

[barnett468 418]

3 hours ago, fnoble said:

 my machinist is telling me don’t use the 351s because they will reduce the velocity a lot and lose my bottom end completely.

he is very wrong in your case and obviously knows very little about performance engine building.

[barnett468 418]

4 hours ago, fnoble said:

I’m going AOD I’ll probably go either 355 or 373 rear  

unless you want to roast the tires a lot and/or street race with it etc, i would not install 3.73 gears, at least unless you don't drive long distances at 70 mph or more. 350 gears with a medium stall converter will get you off the line decently unless your tires are around 27" in diameter or larger. Also, if you did nothing other than go from 2.79 to 350 gears, it will feel like you gained ,maybe 75 horsepower. it is a fairly big jump from 2.79 and will make a very noticeable difference.

 

[barnett468 418]

45 minutes ago, fnoble said:

I don't want to build this as a racer

want a car I can drive to California and back

torque isn't really my goal

want a solid daily driver that isn't a dog.

i would use 3.43 gears in your stock rear end

mildly built aod trans

2000 rpm stall converter if you want to spin the tires a little now and then.

posi rear if you don't want to sit there and melt one tire when you floor it but a posi might be overkill in your case and thy aren't cheap.

[barnett468 418]

1 hour ago, fnoble said:

Thank you for the response, I don't want to build this as a racer simply want a car I can drive to California and back.i want  a solid daily driver 302.  any guidance on how I should build that?

yes, but people need a bit more info.

do you like to rev engines sort of high to like over 5500 rpm?

do you prefer strong low end power or something with power in the higher rpm range?

do you want a mild, moderate, or dragster type idle?

are you on a tight budget?

 

 

 

[fnoble 0]

I don’t need to Rev over 5500 RPM as with an aod, 2500 will keep me at highway speed. South Dakota places are far apart so a lot of highway miles. reasonable low to mid range power is fine, mild to Moderate idle, budget -I want to do it right the first time As a healthy daily driver. I’d like to goose it once in a while just cause that’s fun but mostly I just want to drive it whenever, wherever. Thanks

[barnett468 418]

ok, xlnt. you can play with the calculator below to determine what gears you want but i would not rev an engine at 2500 rpm very long if it revs to a max of 5500. i would shoot for around 2100 - 2200 at 70 mph at the most which means it will rev a little higher at 75 which im guessing might be close to the speeds you can drive out there, and this puts you at 3.50 gears if your aod has a .67 final drive. i definitely wouldn't use 3.73 in your case but that's just me.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/gear-speed.php

 

i can post more info later but i think you might be best with the cam i put in a 289 6 months ago when i installed 351 heads. or at least a cam similar to it. it had a nearly stock type idle and with 3.00 gears and a stock converter, it would roast the single drive tire for around 20 feet. if it had 3.50 gears it would have roasted it much farther. it revved to around 5400 rpm. there was absolutely zero hesitation when slamming the pedal down from a dead stop, however, that is partially because i perfectly tune all the engines i work on.

 

 

[barnett468 418]

heres just 1 option

pistons - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/uem-kb115-020/overview/make/ford

plasma moly rings but cast iron rings will work also - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tsr-cr9090-20/overview/

lifters - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99280-16/overview/make/ford

if your 351 valves have rotators buy stainless valves . if your valves are good and don't have rotators, have the intakes back cut.

install 3/8" screw in studs

install hardened seats if they are bad

drill the steam holes in the heads

red label rollmaster timing chain without the thrust bearings

drill a .020" hole in both lifter oil galley plugs while they are out.

mellings standard blueprinted oil pump -http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/blueprinted-melling-ford-302-5-0-standard-volume-street-pump/

cometic .035" thick 4.02 bore head gaskets

oil pump drive - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-154-7904/overview/

scorpion rocker arms . the race models hut some valve covers. the endurance models don't but cost more. stock ratio is 1.6 but you might want 1.62 depending what cam you use.

intake - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-9424-f302/overview/make/ford

carburetor - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/qft-sl-600-vs/overview/

i think 1 of these are the intake gaskets i used but check the port sizes. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1250s3/overview/make/ford

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1262s3/overview/make/ford

remflex exhaust gaskets if you use headers.

comp cams valve springs that will get you around 105 closed and 250 open.

 

 

 

[fnoble 0]

Thank you what cam?

[barnett468 418]

26 minutes ago, fnoble said:

Thank you what cam?

i will try to look tomorrow.

[barnett468 418]

here ot is but i would use 1.62 or 1.65 in your case, especially if you do any port work to the heads.

http://www.herbertcams.com/205-215-dur-050-450-475-112lc-1000-5000/

 

here's another slightly more aggressive option

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-31-238-3/overview/make/ford

 

[Rsanter 152]

Just because you port the heads does not mean just make them bigger.

on the exhaust side the ford heads are so restricted that going bigger is the first step. But a lot of porting is to get the best flow out of the size of port you have/create.

when I do porting I always want to know what the customer wants out of the car. And that drives how much I port and how big I make things.

this is why you will find that companies that make the aftermarket heads will have several versions of their heads and will list the port volume. That way you can best match what heads are for your application

 

with stock heads it would be hard to make them too big as you can only go so far

[fnoble 0]

I'm guessing flat top pistons to make up for the compression loss with a 351 heads eyebrows for the larger valves reasonable cam what kind of Street manners will this engine have on a  long distance Drive? what kind of mileag?  hundred thousand mile car? I really do appreciate the information. My last two cars were from a different manufacturer sort of new to the Ford small block. Hate to admit this but grocery getter and vacation touring car.  If it was a Fastback or a special car I would feel different, but it's a coupe I really do want to just drive it.it is going to be a nice car and for the money I will have in it I can't think of anything else I'd rather have for that amount of money -. Kia... 69 mustang...humm. 

[barnett468 418]

2 hours ago, fnoble said:

I'm guessing flat top pistons to make up for the compression loss with a 351 heads eyebrows for the larger valves

reasonable cam

what kind of Street manners will this engine have on a  long distance Drive?

what kind of mileag? 

hundred thousand mile car?

Hate to admit this but grocery getter and vacation touring car. 

 

yes, those are the exact pistons i posted.

those are the cams i posted.

i don't understand the question but the main difference will be that it will be louder if you have headers and loud mufflers etc.

around 15 mpg on the freeway with a .67 overdrive and 3.43 or 3.50 gears.

depends on the quality of the parts and the machine work, but these engines easily did 100,000 miles from the factory if the oil was changed frequently which reminds me of something, if it were me i would machine it for a 1 piece rear main seal if it doesn't already have one and run high quality oil. valvoline 20w-50 v twin oil is one superb choice.

since you plan to drive this long distances, i suggest you put a fairly quiet exhaust on it unless you don't mind hearing the exhaust mile after mile.

 

 

 

 

[fnoble 0]

 Thank you very much I really do appreciate this. I agree on the exhaust note - fun when I was a kid now that I’m 66 not quite as much fun,  like to keep the hearing I still have!  Would an Edelbrock 500 AVS squeeze a little more mileage out of it versus the 600 or would I be giving away top end ?