Poor low RPM assist with new Borgeson Box

[copb8 97]

I purchased and installed a Borgeson power steering box for my 1970 Mustang Mach 1 with 351 Cleveland & FMX transmission. My issue is that there is very little power steering assist at low RPMs and the feel is 'grainy' when turning the wheel under pessure. I have bled the system several times and the fluid is correct and new.

 

I contacted Borgeson to get their recommendation and received the following response:

Quote

The original pumps can strain a bit with our system. To retain the Ford look we recommend switching to a pump of the same vintage but one that was on a 70-77 4 wheel drive truck, the trucks pumps supplied more pressure and flow than the car pumps

 

Have any of you experienced the same issues and installed a circa 1970 truck power steering pump? Was it a direct bolt-in fit? What other alternatives would you suggest?

TIA

 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

The Ford power steering pump that came in these cars doesn't create enough pressure and some say volume for the Borgeson power steering box.  The Borgeson box requires a pump that can create something like 1200-1250 psi.  The test pressure specs in my Ford service manuals the these Ford pumps is 800-850 psi.  So I am guessing 800-850 psi is about the max for a Ford pump in these cars. My Borgeson power steering box works great with the Saginaw (GM style) power steering pump.  Borgeson  claimed to me that is "should work with my Ford pump IF it makes enough pressure".  I pushed them a little on that statement and got no response.  I didn't bother with Ford pump and installed the Saginaw pump from the beginning.  At the time I didn't know anything about the 1970-1977 truck power steering pump.

You might find some info for that pump on the Ford truck forums.

[copb8 97]

28 minutes ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

The Ford power steering pump that came in these cars doesn't create enough pressure and some say volume for the Borgeson power steering box.  The Borgeson box requires a pump that can create something like 1200-1250 psi.  The test pressure specs in my Ford service manuals the these Ford pumps is 800-850 psi.  So I am guessing 800-850 psi is about the max for a Ford pump in these cars. My Borgeson power steering box works great with the Saginaw (GM style) power steering pump.  Borgeson  claimed to me that is "should work with my Ford pump IF it makes enough pressure".  I pushed them a little on that statement and got no response.  I didn't bother with Ford pump and installed the Saginaw pump from the beginning.  At the time I didn't know anything about the 1970-1977 truck power steering pump.

You might find some info for that pump on the Ford truck forums.

Was you Saginaw pump a bolt-in replacement, or did you have to fabricate something to make it work? Is your '69 a 351 Windsor? 

[lanky 44]

Mine is a '69 351w, I bought the Borgeson kit with the saginaw style pump. I had to modify the bracket that came with the kit, it was way off being inline with the crankshaft and water pump pulleys. For me the belt has to be really freaking tight to not slip during parking manuevers, but if its not slipping assist is fine. FYI the hoses Borgeson includes are not great, they should be making them at least an inch longer than they are.

[1969_Mach1 333]

3 hours ago, copb8 said:

Was you Saginaw pump a bolt-in replacement, or did you have to fabricate something to make it work? Is your '69 a 351 Windsor? 

My 69 has a 351W motor.  The Saginaw pump fit fine with the bracket kit from Borgeson.  It's simply one bracket and some spacers the bolt to the front of the cylinder head.  I don't know if it will fit a Cleveland.  You can purchase the bracket kit or pump and bracket kit from Summit Racing.  If it doesn't fit, return it.

When I did my conversion I purchased the pump and bracket kit that Borgeson offered.  If there were any issues I didn't want Borgeson to blame it on somebody else's pump.

Bronco Graveyard has better Saginaw pump brackets than Borgeson for small block Fords.  I didn't know about them when I did my conversion.  https://shop.broncograveyard.com/GM-Saginaw-Power-Steering-Pump-Kit/productinfo/12846/

Borgeson Pump and bracket kit.  https://www.summitracing.com/parts/brg-800330

[det0326 179]

36 minutes ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

Bronco Graveyard has better Saginaw pump brackets than Borgeson for small block Fords.  I didn't know about them when I did my conversion.  https://shop.broncograveyard.com/GM-Saginaw-Power-Steering-Pump-Kit/productinfo/12846/

That is what I did.  Did not care about originality so I used one from a 1991 bronco serpentine set up and all.   

[copb8 97]

Thanks for all the comments and links guys. I will definitely research those. 

I sure wish I could hear from a couple of Cleveland guys as I'd guess the attach points will be different.

I should've also mentioned I have aftermarket air on the car and it's mounted in tandem with the existing power steering pump bracket.

[Rich Ackermann 174]

On 8/14/2018 at 7:41 AM, copb8 said:

Thanks for all the comments and links guys. I will definitely research those. 

I sure wish I could hear from a couple of Cleveland guys as I'd guess the attach points will be different.

I should've also mentioned I have aftermarket air on the car and it's mounted in tandem with the existing power steering pump bracket.

I am considering installing a Borgeson P/S conversion kit  in my 70 Mach 1 Cleveland 351C 4v with Manual P/S (e.g. Tremec 5 spd so no Z-bar, Borgeson, Global West). I understand the Saginaw pump Borgeson uses higher pressure pump than the stock Ford OEM type. By using the Ford pump does not provide as much power assist at low RMPs. Anyone using.. the Ford OEM or the Saginaw pump that Borgeson provides with the manual conversion kit on their Cleveland?

Second question, Borgeson does not have a P/S pump bracket for their Saginaw pump when installing it on a 351C. March Performance has one that works with the Saginaw on Cleveland non-A/C cars only. Anyone, find a Saginaw pump bracket that works on a 351C with A/C (either Stock or aftermarket A/C like Classic Air) or is my only option to use the stock Ford pump and brackets with A/C and the Borgeson P/S conversion kit and live with less power assist at low RPMs?

Thanks, Rich

[copb8 97]

I hope you have better luck finding a reasonable solution than I did. I have a 70 w/351C, PS, FMX, and aftermarket A/C and haven't been able to find a straightforward bolt-on solution other than one vendor at Good Guys telling me I could go to a serpentine belt system and replace the front end of the motor to do it. Uh....no.

 

[Rich Ackermann 174]

On 2/18/2019 at 4:27 PM, copb8 said:

I hope you have better luck finding a reasonable solution than I did. I have a 70 w/351C, PS, FMX, and aftermarket A/C and haven't been able to find a straightforward bolt-on solution other than one vendor at Good Guys telling me I could go to a serpentine belt system and replace the front end of the motor to do it. Uh....no.

 

I'll post what I find out..

Update: I found this on a Bronco aftermarket website: https://www.wildhorses4x4.com/product/Steering_Pump_Bracket_Kit/Bronco_Extreme_Duty_Steering_Pumps

The pump bracket should work with the Saginaw press-fit style pump that comes with the Borgeson kit. Not sure about the bracket to the block, but it looks like it would be easy to modify if need be and for $60 I may give it a try.

 

Found this on another site, where someone adapted a 460ci bracket from a 78-79 E350 to their 351M Bronco. 

[Vicfreg 771]

I have the Saginaw pump on my 1968, and also installed on my 1970.  I used the Borgeson supplied bracket on my '68, and CVF racing serpentine system on my '70. Details on my build thread.

 

 

[unilec 57]

I would be worried with too much flexing with that Bronco bracket, let us know if you do fit one.

[1969_Mach1 333]

That Bronco bracket shouldn't flex because in addition to bolting to the water pump, is also bolts to the front of the cylinder head similar to the OEM Ford brackets.  However, I've looked into using that bracket on my 351W because I was never really happy with what Borgeson provides, it is made for a Windsor so I don't think it will fit Cleveland motors.  

[fvike 173]

If originality isn't important, have a look at the KRC PS pumps. They have both cast iron and aluminum pumps, so the price range is pretty broad. The cool thin about them is that the flow valve are changeable for flow tuning.

[copb8 97]

I like to follow up on threads I started to let anyone who's searching for answers know what the final resolution was.

Since there seems to be no solution to install a Saginaw pump on a 351 Cleveland with AC unless you go to a very expensive and non-original looking serpentine belt system, I decided to roll the dice and simply buy and install a re-manufactured OEM pump from Summit. It's a Cardone pump and I've heard quality can be a bit hit and miss (hate to say this since I contracted for them for 10 years). Unfortunately there weren't too many alternatives that were highly reviewed.

During the install I found out that the old pump in my car was a Ford unit but was a non-original pump and that the bracket wasn't the same as an original OEM either. I sourced an old correct bracket from a friend and stripped it down and refinished it. I then painted the ugly silver reman pump black and installed the entire unit. I had to rework the hoses as the connectors were in different positions. The BIGGEST pain was getting the hoses correct and fitted between the pump and the Borgeson box. What a pain! 

After the install the pump was an improvement but not where I'd hoped it'd be, but after some bleeding, burping and driving it is now a HUGE improvement. I can now back into my garage at idle without having to practically twist the steering wheel off the column. I'm thrilled.

Now on to the next thing...... 

[jmlay 80]

The external canister may be swapped between pumps without affecting the pump it’s self. This would allow you to use the old with the desired hose locations.

[Hux 45]

HI RICH

Ford Australia used Saginaw pumps from @1979-1982 on the Aussie Falcon and Fairlane with 302/351c. There is not that many around and am currently hunting for one at a reasonable price myself.  Some folks only want to see with the steering box which is of course RHD.

I’ll let you know - the alternative I am toying with is the EV and hot rod folks all talk about about a particular electric power steering pump which is an Australian model only I think (GM Holden Astra).  It needs only power no other extras to work and runs @ AUS $120 used.

[cavboy78 28]

Have you looked at CVF Racing? They have 351C brackets that look lke they work with the saginaw pump, but appears you have to also use their a/c bracket that only works with a sanden compressor. I'm a 351w guy, so not too well versed on the 351c issues. FWIW, i have their complete v-belt pulley system on my 351W for about 10 years. very high quality and no issues. 

https://www.cvfracing.com/ford-351c-power-steering-bracket/

 

 

 

[Hux 45]

Rich this is what the Aussie bracket looks like