Which A/C, Original Style or Sanden Compressor?

[rmarks 20]

I have an original A/C car with all the equipment still in place, but the A/C has not worked in the 14 years I have had the car.  With the TX heat getting to me, it's time to correct that.  I know the compressor clutch is shot,  and was wondering what all I should replace (besides seals) to get it back in operation with R134?  I did replace the A/C coil when I replaced the heater core a few years ago.  Or, should I just replace it with a Sanden kit?   It seems the old A/C equipment is hard to come by now (either out of stock, no longer in stock, or send in for rebuild), even through the likes of Classic Auto Air.  Thoughts?   If I did stick with OEM, any recommendations on where to find the replacement parts?

[mustangstofear 608]

I would check with  Old Air, there right in your state. It's  all we use on our builds. 

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

I went with a Sanden kit from Classic Auto Air. It's not the original look, but it weighs less, is more efficient and I like to think that it can handle higher rpm's better. To maximize the cooling and have better performance I'll be using the FrostyCool 134 Replacement refrigerant. Its one of those propane based products and some may have bad things to say about it, but I have yet to hear of anyone who properly filled their system having an A/C related death.

Painted it non-gloss black (I forget exactly which variant) so as to not make it stand out. Hoses not installed yet.

[Shep69 149]

I also went for a Sanden compressor as most of my under hood A/C parts were missing when I purchased my mustang. Very happy with it. 

[barnett468 418]

there is a seal in the front of the compressor and there may be o rings on each end of your hoses. if you use 134 you could replace these with the correct seals. the compressor seal is easy to replace once the clutch is off. the clutches almost never fail. the brushes occasionally wear out but more often they just get stuck inside the pickup and can be freed up with a little pick and some contact cleaner.

there is also some oil in the compressor. you could drain it then when they charge your system have them use some oil that is compatible.

no huge benefit in using a sanden and if you want to keep the stock look you might as well use the orig style compressor.

 

 

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

14 minutes ago, barnett468 said:

there is a seal in the front of the compressor and there may be o rings on each end of your hoses. if you use 134 you could replace these with the correct seals. the compressor seal is easy to replace once the clutch is off. the clutches almost never fail. the brushes occasionally wear out but more often they just get stuck inside the pickup and can be freed up with a little pick and some contact cleaner.

there is also some oil in the compressor. you could drain it then when they charge your system have them use some oil that is compatible.

no huge benefit in using a sanden and if you want to keep the stock look you might as well use the orig style compressor. 

 

 

2

The Sanden compressors put much lower stresses on the belt due to its higher efficiency and 7-piston variety for R-134 wobbly plate layout vs the York's 2-piston on a crankshaft construction. Sanden's are a little quieter. The Sandens are so popular because they operate smoothly, with a minimum amount of torque required to operate, because the load is distributed over multiple short-stroke cylinders. The Sanden compressor has another characteristic which we like, especially for street rods: its short stroke, low-displacement-per-cylinder configuration tends to make it less efficient at low RPM ranges (1200 and below), the same speed at which our engine-driven radiator fans are least efficient. This puts less heat load on the condenser and consequently on the radiator at idle speeds. On the average classic car requiring a smaller sized condenser, that is a blessing. Above 1200 RPM, efficiency rapidly increases; at operating speeds of 1800 to 2400 RPM it is about the most efficient pump on the market. It can be operated at continuous crank speeds of 6000 RPM. These characteristics make the Sanden an almost ideal performance compressor. The York compressor is a two cylinder, reciprocating pump. The reciprocating motion causes it to vibrate more than modern Sanden compressors. The York also has higher torque requirements for peak pumping, and they don’t like higher RPM operating speeds.

[barnett468 418]

 

Thanks for the info, however, I know all about sanden compressors. I have been doing ac units on these cars for around 45 years.

Fan belts on a piston compressor can easily crack from heat and age before they actually wear out, and this cracking process can easily take 10 years or more to occur. The sanden compressor can not prevent damage caused to the belt by heat and age etc, besides, when I bought a belt for a mustang with a piston compressor just a couple months ago, it only cost me around $10.00 at Oreily's auto.

The difference in the "load" the 2 compressors put on an engine will have absolutely zero affect on an engines temps unless the cooling system is too small anyway, in which case it should be fixed irregardless of what compressor is on it.

The difference in vibration is irrelevant since it is nearly impossible to feel the "vibration" from a stock compressor at idle unless there is something wrong with it.

Ford probably made over one hundred million cars with the piston compressor and I don't remember any recalls they had for it causing overheating, excess noise, or vibration. AMC used the same style as well for many years.

I also have no idea who "we" is but I'm sure there are thousands of people that are not in that group you are referring to.

 

 

 

 

 

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

5 minutes ago, barnett468 said:

Thanks for the info, however, I know all about sanden compressors. I have been doing ac units on these cars for around 45 years.

The difference in the "load" the 2 compressors put on an engine will have absolutely zero affect on an engines temps unless the cooling system is too small anyway, in which case it should be fixed irregardless of what compressor is on it.

The difference in vibration is irrelevant since it is nearly impossible to feel the "vibration" from a stock compressor at idle unless there is something wrong with it.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, you seem to know about the Sanden, but I will contest the heat buildup at idle speeds. Especially on a Big Block. rmarks wanted to know his options. I wanted to identify some of the differences for him. Most unmodified Mustangs do have cooling issues, and running the A/C does not help that. Many York compressors do have something wrong with them, they are old, worn, and they vibrate. So it really comes down to what rmarks wants, sticking with the original looking and operating York, or the non-original Sanden? 

[barnett468 418]

2 minutes ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

Thanks, you seem to know about the Sanden, but I will contest the heat buildup at idle speeds. Especially on a Big Block.  

You certainly have the right to contest that even though that has not been my first hand experience based on my 45 years of experience doing this in areas where it gets to 110 degrees in the summer.

[barnett468 418]

6 minutes ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

Most unmodified Mustangs do have cooling issues, and running the A/C does not help that.

And this basically proves my point. You are talking about an insufficient or faulty cooling system which has absolutely nothing to do with the compressor. If the engine runs hot, changing a piston compressor to a sanden compressor will not fix the problem. This is a 100% guarantee. 

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

Not going to argue with you, I have 3 York/Tecumseh compressors sitting on my shelf. I have used both and I'm not going to use them for the reasons I have already mentioned. Please let the OP read these articles, and you may as well. Feel free to come up with articles contrary to these.

https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/450103-sanden-c-compressor-vs-factory-york.html

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/york-vs-sanden-a-c-clutch.495791/

https://autoacforum.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=15986

https://nostalgicac.com/compressors.html

https://www.vintageair.com/basic-auto-air-conditioning-compressor-facts/

[barnett468 418]

8 hours ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

Not going to argue with you,

I have 3 York/Tecumseh compressors sitting on my shelf. I have used both and I'm not going to use them for the reasons I have already mentioned.

Please let the OP read these articles,

and you may as well.

Feel free to come up with articles contrary to these.

Then why does it seem like you are by trying to contradict what I post?

Thanks for letting me know but that is irrelevant to me. I have left the original compressors on hundreds of cars I have owned and also on those that I have worked on for others for some of the reasons I already mentioned.

Why are you asking me to let the op read the articles when I obviously have no control over what they op reads, plus I certainly wouldn't prohibit them from reading anything they wanted to even if I had control over it?

Since I have been working on ac for around 45 years, and never have an issue with it or with overheating that I can not fix, I don't need to read anything posted by anyone else regarding it but thanks for the offer.

I don't need to come up with any articles to contradict anything you posted, because, since I have been doing this for around 45 years I have pretty much determined what causes what on most things that I deal with and how to fix issues when they arise and therefore don't need input from others.

There is no substitute for experience, and what works on paper and in theory doesn't always work in real world application. Anyone can copy and paste something they read to try and support their claims like you have, which is sometimes referred to as "An appeal to authority,", but that does not mean that what they claim or copy and paste is true or accurate or relevant, or that they really fully understand what it means or how it will really affect things in actual application.

 

 

[barnett468 418]

8 hours ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

Not going to argue with you, I have 3 York/Tecumseh compressors sitting on my shelf. I have used both and I'm not going to use them for the reasons I have already mentioned. ... OP read these articles, and you may as well. Feel free to come up with articles contrary to these.

https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/450103-sanden-c-compressor-vs-factory-york.html

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/york-vs-sanden-a-c-clutch.495791/

https://autoacforum.com/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=15986

https://nostalgicac.com/compressors.html

https://www.vintageair.com/basic-auto-air-conditioning-compressor-facts/

 

None of the articles you posted state that an engine will run hotter or a fan belt will wear out sooner with a piston compressor, or that the vibration or noise from a piston compressor can be so horrible that it warrants switching to a sanden compressor, therefore, once again, you prove my point, so thank you again for doing so because it saves me a bit of typing.

[mwye0627 44]

15 hours ago, barnett468 said:

 

Thanks for the info, however, I know all about sanden compressors. I have been doing ac units on these cars for around 45 years.

Fan belts on a piston compressor can easily crack from heat and age before they actually wear out, and this cracking process can easily take 10 years or more to occur. The sanden compressor can not prevent damage caused to the belt by heat and age etc, besides, when I bought a belt for a mustang with a piston compressor just a couple months ago, it only cost me around $10.00 at Oreily's auto.

The difference in the "load" the 2 compressors put on an engine will have absolutely zero affect on an engines temps unless the cooling system is too small anyway, in which case it should be fixed irregardless of what compressor is on it.

The difference in vibration is irrelevant since it is nearly impossible to feel the "vibration" from a stock compressor at idle unless there is something wrong with it.

Ford probably made over one hundred million cars with the piston compressor and I don't remember any recalls they had for it causing overheating, excess noise, or vibration. AMC used the same style as well for many years.

I also have no idea who "we" is but I'm sure there are thousands of people that are not in that group you are referring to.

 

 

 

 

 

It would appear that Barney is ready to instruct the WHOLE world that technology NOT used since the early 1970's is superior to Everything produced since that time - (Yawn)...    There is a very good reason that technology is over 40 years old...   It is NOT as efficient as more modern AC compressors!   We all know about your 45 year history working on cars and no matter how many times you repeat that, it doesn't seem to make you any more intelligent, now does it?

You want to know just who the WE was in 69ShelbyGT350H's post?

If you would have bothered to read some of the links he posted to the OP you just may have noticed his information came verbatim from Vintage Air and their interesting and ACCURATE page of information and descriptions on all types of modern and vintage AC Compressors...    You may, and probably will disagree, but I'm pretty certain that Vintage Air has a LOT more Experience and Knowledge collectively than you ever will have on this subject, and their experience and knowledge is largely based on our vintage cars.  Hey, NOBODY knows everything and even YOU still have a chance to learn new stuff!  (perhaps like Diesel Trucks...   LOL)

Please stop trying to berate EVERY person on these forums who happens to have a different opinion than you, many of them come on here with experience and knowledge of their own and are just trying to help others...    Please try to remember. Even with your "45" years of "Experience", your viewpoint is just YOUR Opinion, just like everyone else who tries to help others.

And yes, your replies are often very informative and have helped many on these forums and is greatly appreciated, but when you go off on people you make this forum a less enjoyable experience than it is supposed to be...   I have to take meds for my anxiety, perhaps you would feel better if you did too!!!   :)   

Moderators, please take note...

[barnett468 418]

1 hour ago, mwye0627 said:

It would appear that Barney is ready to instruct the WHOLE world that technology NOT used since the early 1970's is superior to Everything produced since that time - (Yawn)...    There is a very good reason that technology is over 40 years old...   It is NOT as efficient as more modern AC compressors!   We all know about your 45 year history working on cars and no matter how many times you repeat that, it doesn't seem to make you any more intelligent, now does it?

You want to know just who the WE was in 69ShelbyGT350H's post?

If you would have bothered to read some of the links he posted to the OP you just may have noticed his information came verbatim from Vintage Air and their interesting and ACCURATE page of information and descriptions on all types of modern and vintage AC Compressors...    You may, and probably will disagree, but I'm pretty certain that Vintage Air has a LOT more Experience and Knowledge collectively than you ever will have on this subject, and their experience and knowledge is largely based on our vintage cars.  Hey, NOBODY knows everything and even YOU still have a chance to learn new stuff!  (perhaps like Diesel Trucks...   LOL)

Please stop trying to berate EVERY person on these forums who happens to have a different opinion than you, many of them come on here with experience and knowledge of their own and are just trying to help others...    Please try to remember. Even with your "45" years of "Experience", your viewpoint is just YOUR Opinion, just like everyone else who tries to help others.

And yes, your replies are often very informative and have helped many on these forums and is greatly appreciated, but when you go off on people you make this forum a less enjoyable experience than it is supposed to be...   I have to take meds for my anxiety, perhaps you would feel better if you did too!!!   :)   

Moderators, please take note...

Your post is generally off topic, and non constructive, and is based partially on grossly inaccurate assumptions. If you want to contribute then I suggest you post some info that is pertinent and potentially useful to the op's question. If you simply want to be condescending, sarcastic, and attempt to berate someone like you are feebly attempting to do to me, I suggest you double up on your meds or go berate your dog or your cat to relieve whatever you have that needs relieving, because comments like some of the ones you made here not helping anyone.

Moderators, please take note...

 

.

 

 

[barnett468 418]

2 hours ago, mwye0627 said:

It would appear that Barney is ready to instruct the WHOLE world that technology NOT used since the early 1970's is superior to Everything produced since that time - (Yawn)...   

We all know about your 45 year history working on cars and no matter how many times you repeat that, it doesn't seem to make you any more intelligent, now does it?

1. ummm...I suggest you stick to the FACTS. I have never stated on this or any other forum that 40 year old technology (or York/Tecumseh compressors etc), are "superior to Everything produced since that time." as you are implying I have - (Yawn)... 

2. That is a pointless question. My 45 years of experience makes me far more knowledgeable than most others that have far less experience like recreational weekend type mechanics. If you are looking for a Doctor to do some type of surgery on you, are you going to look for one that has only done a couple of that type of surgery or are you going to look for one that has done hundreds if not thousands, and which one of them do you assume will have the greatest knowledge and best advice regarding that type of surgery based on their FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with it.

 

FYI - Our shop was one of the first in the US to install a sanden compressor on a Mustang, and we installed many after that.

It is far better to ask people questions then it is to assume things about them like you are doing.

 

 

[69RavenConv 286]

Guys, we pride ourselves on keeping a polite and respectful site. Differences of opinion are normal and to be expected but please don't make it personal. If you want to continue discussing A/C options, I'm all for it. If it degenerates into more bickering I'll lock the thread and we'll all move on. We're all here to learn from each other. 

 

[barnett468 418]

On 8/3/2018 at 1:07 PM, rmarks said:

If I did stick with OEM, any recommendations on where to find the replacement parts?

There are 2 different types of seals that were used in these compressors. one of your local auto parts stores or napa should still be able to get them. if not you should be able to get them from the shop below. i have been buying ac parts from them for around 30 years. you should also still be able to get a rebuilt compressor from some of the auto stores. if you do, make sure it uses the same style fittings as your original.

http://auto-heating-and-air-conditioning-retailers.cmac.ws/california-auto-refrigeration/6825/

[rmarks 20]

Gents,

Thanks for the information.  I appreciate each of the posters' experiences and recommendations, which is what I was hoping for -- some food for thought in making my decision.  This is not an inexpensive proposition and I that's why I appreciate the insights and opinions.  I like originality, but then again driveability and comfort too.  It will be awhile before I can invest in a restoration so I may go with the Sanden kit and keep all the original components in case I want to revert back to original at a later time.

The one thing I don't like about the Sanden kits is the hardware store type hardware that seems out of place.  Have any of you used automotive style hardware?  From where?

69ShelbyGT350H I really like your set up with the non gloss black look.  Where did you get your kit from.  Also, thanks for the articles.

Thanks again guys!

Rich

 

[barnett468 418]

34 minutes ago, rmarks said:

 I like originality, but then again driveability and comfort too.  It will be awhile before I can invest in a restoration so I may go with the Sanden kit and keep all the original components in case I want to revert back to original at a later time.

The one thing I don't like about the Sanden kits is the hardware store type hardware that seems out of place.  Have any of you used automotive style hardware?  From where?

69ShelbyGT350H I really like your set up with the non gloss black look.  Where did you get your kit from.  Also, thanks for the articles.

Thanks again guys!

Rich

 

There will be no noticeable or significant difference in driveability or comfort or air temp or engine performance between a sanden and an original compressor. Bear in mind that ford installed thousands of these types of compressors on 6 cylinder mustangs in 65/66.

What do you mean by hardware store look?

You can get different styles of bolts like flange head or button head socket etc. If you want a different finish other than the shiny type you can paint them with krylon bright silver metallic etc so they look more like bright silver plating.

 

if you get stainless hardware you can have it polished. if you want.

 

.

 

.

 

 

.

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

[rmarks 20]

1 hour ago, barnett468 said:

What do you mean by hardware store look?

 

I mean standard cheap looking bolts that don't fit the original-style automotive nuts and bolts.  Here's the hardware from a Sanden replacement kit:

 

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

1 hour ago, rmarks said:

Gents,

Thanks for the information.  I appreciate each of the posters' experiences and recommendations, which is what I was hoping for -- some food for thought in making my decision.  This is not an inexpensive proposition and I that's why I appreciate the insights and opinions.  I like originality, but then again driveability and comfort too.  It will be awhile before I can invest in a restoration so I may go with the Sanden kit and keep all the original components in case I want to revert back to original at a later time.

The one thing I don't like about the Sanden kits is the hardware store type hardware that seems out of place.  Have any of you used automotive style hardware?  From where?

69ShelbyGT350H I really like your set up with the non gloss black look.  Where did you get your kit from.  Also, thanks for the articles.

Thanks again guys!

Rich

 

5

I rebuilt my under dash A/C box and replaced the evaporator and heater core with parts from NPD. I purchased the Classic Air/Original Air 69-70 Mustang/Cougar A/C Compressor Upgrade Kit V8 STAGE-1, which did not include the condenser or expansion valve. This kit is $499. They also offer a 69-70 Mustang/Cougar A/C Performance Upgrade Kit V8 STAGE-2 kit that includes the condenser, Sight Glass Hose, and expansion valve. This kit is $799. I got the Stage 1 kit and shopped around for the other parts and got them for less than the cost of the Stage 2 kit. I see they offer a satin black compressor for an additional $75. Get a can of satin spray paint for less than $7. Along with the compressor, I also painted all the nuts and bolts.

Test fitting before painting all the parts.

 

After

Almost finished

[barnett468 418]

1 hour ago, rmarks said:

I mean standard cheap looking bolts that don't fit the original-style automotive nuts and bolts.  Here's the hardware from a Sanden replacement kit:

 

other than what i mentioned, you might be able to buy orig style looking hardware individually from AMK in the sizes you need.

https://www.amkproducts.com/Catalog_PDF.htm

 

You can also get flange head nuts in most finishes. These are the silver color I mentioned earlier.

 

 

Some places like Dorman also have flange head in phosphate or at least they look similar to phosphate which is also one of the finishes Ford used.

 

 

[barnett468 418]

 

Also, the flat washers in the sanden kit are USS washers. SAE washers have a smaller outside diameter and look far less hardware store like.

 

 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I'd use the Sanden A/C compressor unless you want it to look original.  Since R134A operates at higher pressures than old R12 there's a chance your old compressor won't last very long with it.  Also R134A is made up of smaller molecules than R12 and tends to leak more often.  Sometimes it's difficult to get an old R12 system completely sealed when converting it to R134A. 

If you really want the original look search around for some R12 before deciding to go the route of using your old compressor.

If hardware is a concern some hardware stores carry the SAE spec washers.  I know ACE hardware in my area does.   McMaster Car is always a good source for hardware.  They have flanged bolts and nuts for more of an OEM look.