Engine build vs Crate discussion

[sixt9stang 36]

So I am having trouble deciding on what I want to do to get my Mustang back on the road.  I am trying to decide if I want to build another 302 with parts I have plus extra parts I need/want, or if I just want to buy a crate engine to get the car together quicker and have a warranty as part of it.  I am by no means an expert engine builder but have built a few.  Thanks for any advice in helping me decide.

Parts I currently have:

302 roller block - bare

Pistons: Speed-Pro SLP-L2482F30

Intake: Edelbrock EDL-2121

Rocker Arms: Harland Sharp 1.6 ratio CSP-S4003

Holley 600 carb --> Will most likely will be going with FiTech

Hedman hedders

I would be needing bearings, gaskets, other small items.  Big items would be aluminum cylinder heads and a cam.  I am leaning towards a set of heads from AFR.  Thinking their 185 heads.

As for the crate engine option I was looking at something like this: https://www.tristarengines.com/performance/ford/351/351w-ford-380-hp-410-torque-street-dressed-longblock-hp-crate-engine-with-hp-aluminum-cylinder-heads

I know this engine is a 351 but for the price I figure why not go with the 351 vs a 302.

In the future the car will have an 8.8" rear end with either 3.55 or 3.73 gears.  I am also leaning towards a 4r70w transmission.  Car will mostly be used for cruising but would like to get into a bit of road course racing in the future.  Please let me know if there are any questions.  Barnett if you reply I appreciate your wisdom but please go easy on me.

 

[barnett468 418]

the only crate engine companies I typically suggest are ford racing and keith kraft . many others are crap, built with unknown parts and shoddy machine work, and they throw your warranty out the window as soon as the engine leaves their shop.

you can build a 347 stroker out of your block also but if you want big hp, build a 418 out of a 351 Windsor.

 

if you get a crate engine make sure it is only .030" at the most.

 

 

 

 

 

[sixt9stang 36]

Thanks Barnett! I have checked out Ford Racing but all of the engines I was looking at still use the alphabet cams. Everything I have been reading makes it sound that those cams aren't the greatest anymore.

I will check out Keith Kraft too. I knew you had recommended another builder before but couldn't remember who.

I will definitely check if any I am looking at have been bored more than .030 over.

[barnett468 418]

 

 

Chris Straub, but he doesn't build "crate" engines.

http://www.straubtechnologies.com/

 

You can easily change the cam in the Ford crate engines.

 

 

 

[sixt9stang 36]

Thanks, will check his site out as I have seen it recommended before.

[sixt9stang 36]

9 hours ago, barnett468 said:

the only crate engine companies I typically suggest are ford racing and keith kraft . many others are crap, built with unknown parts and shoddy machine work, and they throw your warranty out the window as soon as the engine leaves their shop.

you can build a 347 stroker out of your block also but if you want big hp, build a 418 out of a 351 Windsor.

 

if you get a crate engine make sure it is only .030" at the most.

Just started checking out Keith Craft's site and their engines are very close to prices of other crate engines that I have been looking at.  If I decide to go crate I will probably go there since you give them the thumbs up.

If you were to put together an engine for cruising and possible road racing how would you build it?  Would you start with a 302 or go to a 351 block?

[69Stanger408 82]

My 408 crate long block came from Tri-Star. Best warranty/price out there. I upgraded everything. So far happy. I have the build sheet specs, all quality parts. Had all the engine pics loaded on my build page but all pics got lost when the admin made recent changes.

 

[69Stanger408 82]

Sent pics

[barnett468 418]

4 hours ago, sixt9stang said:

Just started checking out Keith Craft's site and their engines are very close to prices of other crate engines that I have been looking at.  If I decide to go crate I will probably go there since you give them the thumbs up.

If you were to put together an engine for cruising and possible road racing how would you build it?  Would you start with a 302 or go to a 351 block?

 

A road racing engine would perform differently than a street strip type engine so you should determine exactly what type of driving/performance is most important to you.

As the saying goes., "There is no replacement for displacement". The bigger the engine, the less it has to rev to make power. Some people prefer high revving crappy idling small blocks while others prefer low revving good idling torque monsters so it would help if you let people know which type you prefer more. A 351 cubed, non stroked Windsor can be built to run pretty strong without having extremely poor idle quality and without having to rev to 7000 rpm. Obviously, if you stroke it, it will make more power.

You also need to consider gear ratios. The smaller the engine, the numerically higher the gear ratio needs to be for decent acceleration, so if you don't have an overdrive trans and use like 3.50 gears or numerically higher, the engine will be revving fairly high which can get annoying on long drives not to mention it will wear it out a little sooner as well.

The power is in the heads. Cheap heads do not flow nearly as well as expensive heads like AFR's but cheap heads will still make more power than stock ones so you also need to determine how much you want to pay for the power you want so to speak. Unless you are a recreational drag racer or just like to roast the bejesus out of your tires a lot, the Chinese heads will work fine although I would run good springs and change the rocker studs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ralt962 11]

I used to work for Ford but now work for Roush.  I'm not in the crate motor area, (Engineering for Alt Fuels and Performance)  but I was through the shop today.  Like a kid in a candy store.  Motors in all states of assembly and capability.  The quality of work there is fantastic.  Not a sales pitch, but you might want to check out what they have.  

[sixt9stang 36]

Thanks. I will check them out too. Didn't think about them before. I am sure they are quite expensive though.

[sixt9stang 36]

 

On 7/19/2018 at 12:04 PM, barnett468 said:

 

A road racing engine would perform differently than a street strip type engine so you should determine exactly what type of driving/performance is most important to you.

As the saying goes., "There is no replacement for displacement". The bigger the engine, the less it has to rev to make power. Some people prefer high revving crappy idling small blocks while others prefer low revving good idling torque monsters so it would help if you let people know which type you prefer more. A 351 cubed, non stroked Windsor can be built to run pretty strong without having extremely poor idle quality and without having to rev to 7000 rpm. Obviously, if you stroke it, it will make more power.

You also need to consider gear ratios. The smaller the engine, the numerically higher the gear ratio needs to be for decent acceleration, so if you don't have an overdrive trans and use like 3.50 gears or numerically higher, the engine will be revving fairly high which can get annoying on long drives not to mention it will wear it out a little sooner as well.

The power is in the heads. Cheap heads do not flow nearly as well as expensive heads like AFR's but cheap heads will still make more power than stock ones so you also need to determine how much you want to pay for the power you want so to speak. Unless you are a recreational drag racer or just like to roast the bejesus out of your tires a lot, the Chinese heads will work fine although I would run good springs and change the rocker studs.

Good info. I would say that the biggest thing the car will be used for in the immediate future will be spirited driving on the country roads near where we live and cruising to get togethers.

I plan on putting an overdrive trans in at the same time whatever engine I do goes in.

I definitely loved the sound of my 302 revving at close to 6000 rpm so I would like to safely rev it to at least 6k. 

I want to get quality parts when it comes to the cam and heads so I will probably base this build around the AFR heads. That is if I decide to build vs buy an engine.  I would just be looking for advice on the size of AFRs and then what cam to match the heads with.  I was thinking that I would get the AFR 185s as they are still under $2k and could possibly be used on a 302 or future 351 if I wanted more cubes.

 

 

[sixt9stang 36]

I am guessing I should go with the 58cc chamber AFR heads for more compression? There are some decent priced used sets of 165s on eBay. Still looking around though.

[RPM 1,190]

Yes, go with the 58cc heads. AFR 185's under $2k? Dang, glad I bought mine when they were $1,200.

[sixt9stang 36]

42 minutes ago, RPM said:

Yes, go with the 58cc heads. AFR 185's under $2k? Dang, glad I bought mine when they were $1,200.

Ya. I was reading some older comparisons where they said the heads we're about $1,200 thinking to myself that I really missed out.

[barnett468 418]

ok, well I guess you need to determine what you want . if you want a big hp 351 or 351 stroker, I would use afr 190 heads. the 185 heads are way too big for a 302 irregardless what you might read on other forums because those guys are clueless. so you can't buy heads for a 302 then put them on a built 351, it just doesn't work that way.

also, since your 302 already revs to 6k, I don't know exactly what type of build info help you need. do you want it to rev to 8k or something?

[sixt9stang 36]

Gotcha. I guess then I should just stick with the 302 block since it is already machined to save money. I have a possible 351 block I could grab to build down the road.

Don't want to rev to 8k lol. Just around 6k safely.  I am guessing I just need to have the right springs for the cam.

So if I go with the AFR 165 heads, any cam recommendation? I'll have to check if the rocker studs that come in those heads are the correct size for my rockers.

[barnett468 418]

ok, I still have zero idea what you want because you say you are happy with 6,000 rpm and your engine turns 6,000 rpm now, so exactly why do you need a recommendation for new heads and a different cam just to make your engine turn exactly the same rpm it does now?

you also haven't mentioned exactly what heads, cam, and intake, and compression it currently has so we have no baseline to compare to.

I for one would at least not use a stock crank and stock rods or stock main caps or stock main cap bolts for any 6,000 rpm engine if you want to do it "safely".

I also wouldn't use that intake with a 6,000 rpm engine but it will work.

if you use an overdrive trans and want to get from light to light quickly, I would use the 3.73 gears instead of the 3.50 with a 6,000 rpm engine.

I would also be running at least 10.5 compression with a 6,000 rpm 289/302 that has aluminum heads.

ati crank damper

rollmaster timing chain

aftermarket fuel injection systems do not like big lumpy cams.

 

 

 

 

[sixt9stang 36]

Barnett, it is possible you missed it earlier in the topic.  The engine hasn't been in the car for a little more than 11 years when a lobe rounded off the cam.  The cam that was in it was an Edelbrock Performer.  The engine had 69 302 cast heads on it with screw in studs and unknown valve springs.  It also had the Edelbrock Performer intake.  The engine would float the valves at anything about 5800 rpm.  This was all in the original 69 302 block bored .030 over.  I now have a 302 roller block bored .030 over that I will be using for this build.  I had the machine shop shave the lip off the back of the 69 crank so that I could use it in the newer block.  This way I could keep my balanced rotating assembly.

I have all ARP hardware for the engine but it does have a stock crank and rods.  

Would just stepping up to the Performer RPM intake be better or would there be another intake in that price range work even better?

I have never calculated compression ratio before but have read up on doing it a bit.  I will have to check into what I would be at with the pistons I have and the ARP heads.

Adding the ati crank damper and rollmaster timing chain to my list.  Thanks again for all the wisdom!

[barnett468 418]

exactly which performer cam was it?

you can run the same type cam with the afr 165 heads if you want and it will make more power providing you run the same compression. if you changed pistons, your rotating assembly will no longer be balanced. also, the damper and flywheel should also be balanced.

stock rod bolts will eventually break and the stock rods probably will also and so may the stock crank. some people get lucky and some people don't.

you also should have the block zero decked. I would run around .038" - .040"quench/squish with that. cometic makes .035" thick head gaskets but with the stock crank and rods I would be a little concerned about them possibly stretching enough to hit the heads at high rpm. this type of thing is often a best guess but good rods will stretch less and a steel crank will flex less.

internally balanced is the best type for high revving engines.

the 351 Windsor firing order cams are also the best for high perf apps as they put a little less stress on the crank.

you will need to mill the heads to around 52 cc's to get the compression up but call afr and ask them if they can be milled that much. you may or may not have a problem getting the intake to fit properly if you zero deck the block then mill the heads more than around .040". if so, you can have the intake machined to fit properly.

stealth and rpm and cobra replica intakes are all ok for your app.