Roller rocker installation and pushrod measurement

[Vicfreg 771]

I have a pushrod measurement tool if you need one, I will sent it to you and send it back when you are done.

[ThePoose 37]

1 hour ago, barnett468 said:

exactly what pistons do you have?

is your other cam installed?

Apologies, I'm probably getting confusing.

The 351 has TRW cast aluminum pistons.  This was an engine I originally rebuilt back to stock 20 years ago and never fired.  Everything inside still looks perfect.  There are reliefs in the pistons, just don't know if there is enough relief for a .549 lift.  Obviously won't know until I measure.  I was trying to avoid pulling apart the bottom end if I could, but I will if it means getting the performance characteristics I'm looking for. 

The Lunati cam I have is in the 351, but I just installed and degreed.  It would take 5 minutes to take it out.  I was going to see if I could talk Summit into an exchange for the grind you recommended, but if they won't exchange, was just wondering your take on if it was worth the effort to hold onto the Lunati cam I have and switch it out with the e303 in my 5.0 when that motor comes out this winter. If it would run about the same, I wouldn't bother.

[ThePoose 37]

35 minutes ago, Vicfreg said:

I have a pushrod measurement tool if you need one, I will sent it to you and send it back when you are done.

Thank you for the offer, Vicfreg.  I do have one.  I have more tools than knowledge!

[barnett468 418]

ok, i will tell you a simple way to tell if the valves will hit in a little bit.

all i can say is that i for one would not run the cam you have in that engine.

 

[Vicfreg 771]

I have a 351W based stroker with all Edelbrock (performer RPM) stuff on the top end.   I chose the Edlebrock heads with the smaller valves (1.90) due to concerns with valve to piston clearance.  I am running a flat tappet cam with less than 0.500 lift.   I ran it on the test stand, great sound at idle, I am happy.  0.549 lift sounds like a lot, if it is a car you want to drive around on a regular basis. Not sure what vacuum that combination will make either, so may want to check that.

I run a B-303 cam on my roller cam 5.0 in my '68.  Old school or not, it has the best idle sound of any small block I have ever owned.  Paired with GT-40 heads, a T5Z and 3.73 gears, the car is just wicked fast and fun to drive.

Lot smarter people than me on here, but I have taken the easy road in the past, using either proven Ford Racing combinations, or using Edelbrock top end packages.

Can't wait to see how it turns out...good luck...

 

 

 

[barnett468 418]

23 minutes ago, Vicfreg said:

0.549 lift sounds like a lot, if it is a car you want to drive around on a regular basis.

Not in the least. Long durations and and long overlap are the main factors that cause poor low end performance. The high lift will give it more power everywhere basically. You don't make power by choking an engine off. I have run around .600 lift with relatively short duration cams on both 347 strokers and 351 windsors in moderate builds. I run around .450 in moderate 302 builds. The cam he has is designed more to work with the crappy stock heads that don't flow enough air to blow out a dozen birthday candles. Try to run around the block by breathing thru a straw only and it might explain it better. All the parts in an engine should compliment each other and running a wimpy low lift cam in high flow heads defeats the entire purpose of the heads..

 

[barnett468 418]

36 minutes ago, Vicfreg said:

or using Edelbrock top end packages.

FYI - Edelbrock cams are not the best choice even for edelbrock heads by todays standards.

 

[barnett468 418]

ok, here ya go.

if you have the stock push rods you can try it with those.

1. rotate engine until number 1 cylinder is at the top dead center on the fire stroke.

2. install push rods in number 1 cylinder.

3. install rocker arms

4. remove locking screws from rocker nuts.

5. install a deep socket on the nuts and twist the socket by hand until you feel an increase in resistance. this will be when the lifter bottoms out and causes the rocker to begin opening the valve. you ca also put a .002" feeler gauge between the rocker and valve tip and feel when it becomes harder to pull out.

6. after the lifters just barely bottom out, turn both nuts an additional 3 1/4" turns.

7. As you face the engine, slowly rotate the crank clockwise 2 full turns using a long breaker bar. If you feel it stop, then stop turning and rotate it counterclockwise to it's starting position.

If the crank rotates 2 full turns, you have enough piston to valve clearance to run that higher lift cam.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ThePoose 37]

This is great.  Thanks again.  Far more helpful than the tech line.  I'm going to get that cam regardless, but would be nice if I don't have to dive into more work.

Probably won't get to checking until Tuesday.  I was told it's family time now for the holiday weekend.  Apparently family time starts with a weed eater. 

[barnett468 418]

12 minutes ago, ThePoose said:

This is great.  Thanks again.  Far more helpful than the tech line.  I'm going to get that cam regardless, but would be nice if I don't have to dive into more work.

No prob, glad I can help. Been doing this exact thing for a living for around 45 years and I have learned at least a little thru my own mistakes, lol. As far as the tech lines go, I know for a fact that many of the people that answer them at lunati and comp etc, have very little knowledge regarding how an engine works and often just read the mfg's info for recommending a cam which is really pretty useless unless one  understands how cams work, and even though I am far from an expert on the topic, I know enough now to get an engine to run how I want.

 

 

 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

My 2 cents.  If this is still the cam being considered, Lunati Part Number: 20350710 Previous Part Number: 61010,  I'd think in a 351W it will have a fairly smooth idle.  Good low end power.  Maybe the lopey idle is not a concern anymore.  Which is fine.  A cam the creates a lopey idle is generally designed for upper RPM power.

Some say the Ford Racing letter cams are old technology.  They kind of are because they are straight pattern cams.  They have assymetric lobes, but straight patterns.  According to Ford Racing Tech they are selected because they are fairly easy on valve train parts and for cars that are street driven regularly.  Some motors are fine with straight pattern cams.  I'm not saying one is best for your application.  Isky cams has tech articles on this topic and on "inverse radius" cams which I think (not 100% sure) is the category of the Comp Xtreme series and the Lunati Voodoo series are.  If anything, these are interesting tech articles.  Might be worth reading.  If anything, just to gain some knowledge on the topic. 

[barnett468 418]

2 hours ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

My 2 cents.  If this is still the cam being considered, Lunati Part Number: 20350710 Previous Part Number: 61010,  I'd think in a 351W it will have a fairly smooth idle.  Good low end power.  Maybe the lopey idle is not a concern anymore.  Which is fine.  A cam the creates a lopey idle is generally designed for upper RPM power.

Some say the Ford Racing letter cams are old technology.  They kind of are because they are straight pattern cams.  They have assymetric lobes, but straight patterns.  According to Ford Racing Tech they are selected because they are fairly easy on valve train parts and for cars that are street driven regularly.  Some motors are fine with straight pattern cams.  I'm not saying one is best for your application.  Isky cams has tech articles on this topic and on "inverse radius" cams which I think (not 100% sure) is the category of the Comp Xtreme series and the Lunati Voodoo series are.  If anything, these are interesting tech articles.  Might be worth reading.  If anything, just to gain some knowledge on the topic. 

Shamelessly plagiarized from the yellowbullet.com site

"SOME FACTS ABOUT INVERSE RADIUS ROLLERS.

Inverse radius roller cams are a pain to manufacturer, requiring almost twice the time and attention by the operator. Inverse radius profiles can be designed with greater dynamic capabilities than any Flat Flank design. Comparing conventional Flat Flank Roller profiles to Inverse Radius profiles cannot be done using the seat duration values, as you can see by the numbers in the spreadsheet above.

The concave flank or inverse radius is created from the first degree off of the seat duration / the end of the clearance ramp. It picks up the valve very slow for several degrees, increasing in velocity, but decreasing it’s acceleration. The inverse continues through .050” lifter rise and is usually convex by .080” to .100” lifter rise. From there the inverse profiles begin to create more valve lift area than the Flat Flank design. The piston just happens to be at about TDC when the inverse radius profiles start making area under the curve."

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/557ford1/media/cGF0aDovSU1HXzQxMTNfenBzdHYxbXV2eG8uanBn/?ref=

 

From 2007 by the master cam designer Harold Berkshire whom if I recall correctly, worked at Comp Cams designing cams then disagreed with some of their designs and went to Lunati and designed the Voodoo series for them.

" At least half of all the rollers I make are inverse-radius, with a 28* major intensity(.020"-.050"). The opening sides are around 26* MI. The other half of the rollers I make are at 31*, with an opening side that is inverse-radius.
Every flat tappet I've designed for the past 4 years is at a 28* major intensity. However, flat tappets, by their nature, do not show inverse-radii. The valve lift curve, however, is that of an inverse radius cam.

Inverted-radius cams are a function of cam acceleration rate and base circle diameter. An acceleration rate that makes a severe inverted-radius cam as a small block Chevrolet may not be inverted at all as a LS-1 or a BBC camshaft.
I have ramp designs that can be made with our 450mm wheel as a normal SBC cam, but have to use the 140mm wheel when made as a small-base-circle cam. You can run much higher acceleration rates on large-base-circle cores, like those 50mm and larger, than you can on cores like the SBC.

Using Major Intensity as a figure-of-Merit for hydraulic cams is a NO-GO, because Major Intensity is the .020" duration minus the .050" duration, and Hydraulic Intensity is the .004" duration minus the .050" duration, an entirely different set of numbers.

Many cam design programs calculate radius-of-curvature for each degree of lift/rotation, with inputs including base circle radius and roller lifter radius. There is a certain point in a cam radius where the follower wheel and the grinding wheel have trouble getting cleanly into and out of the inverted radius, which is why small grinding wheels and follower wheels are used. The Landis 3L at Custom Camshafts have both mounted."

 

All this being said, it does not mean that an inverse radius cam is the best one for all builds etc. It depends on other variables like piston speed and head flow etc.

 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I have never heard of the yellowbullet.com website.  So if they have similar information, it's merely coincidence.  And I though the OP might like to read some other information.  Always good to gather as much info as possible from different sources then make informed decisions.  I'm not trying to tell the OP what to do.  Just give him a source of additional information.  It may or may not be relevant at this time.  We all don't have to agree on the same thing.

[barnett468 418]

1 hour ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

I have never heard of the yellowbullet.com website.  So if they have similar information, it's merely coincidence.  And I though the OP might like to read some other information.  Always good to gather as much info as possible from different sources then make informed decisions.  I'm not trying to tell the OP what to do.  Just give him a source of additional information.  It may or may not be relevant at this time.  We all don't have to agree on the same thing.

No idea what that is supposed to mean but Mike Jones posts on the yellow bullet site which is the biggest drag racing site in the world with a wealth of info on high end builds, and he is one of the premier cam grinders in the country and he grinds a lot of inverse cams, so the op can go to that site as well as the place you suggested. Good info does not only come from one place.

It is really also not possible for a person that knows nothing or very little about cams to quickly learn enough about them to be able to make a well informed decision, I guarantee it. That would be like trying to read how to do brain surgery so you can perform your own operations. It just doesn't happen quickly.

 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

I thought you were referring to what I wrote in my post.  Not the first time for a misunderstanding.

[barnett468 418]

1 minute ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

I thought you were referring to what I wrote in my post.  Not the first time for a misunderstanding.

I was merely posting some specific info on what you mentioned so he wouldn't have to try and find it on his own thru google etc.

 

[mwye0627 44]

 

5 hours ago, barnett468 said:

All this being said, it does not mean that an inverse radius cam is the best one for all builds etc. It depends on other variables like piston speed and head flow etc.

 

I re-read 1969_Mach1's post a few times, and while he did refer to the Inverted Flank camshaft lobe, (that's what we used to call them), I seen absolutely NO instance where he inferred that Inverted Radius cams would be the "best one for all builds etc."   He only stated that he had read interesting tech articles and they might be worth reading for someone who wanted further information...

In order to have "Shamelessly Plagiarized" from whatever source, his written text would have to be Verbatim to the source you specified, which it most certainly is not....

Many, in fact, Most people are not familiar with the YellowBullet.com website as it is tailored to a pretty specific audience. The two predominant groups that are drawn to YellowBullet are either Drag Racers, as it has a lot of different sections for various classes and venues.  The other group would be the "Pissers and Moaners", as it's first listed forum is "Trash or Be Trashed, where the Weak are Killed and Eaten"...   There are also quite a few political dissidents who regularly air their grievances...

There  is a LOT of information available on YellowBullet, but nearly nothing I would consider Gospel...   and yes as a Long Time Drag Racer, I have been a member on YellowBullet for many years!  But as with MOST forums, the information presented is typically Opinions Only and should be regarded as such.

As to the rest of your "Dissertation" on inverted radius roller cams, the vast majority of your rant is totally unnecessary to the typical classic car and muscle car hobbyist that frequent this forum.   I do understand much of your information since we ran a few different Inverted Flank roller cams which were all custom grinds specified by our engine builder, Ex NHRA Pro Stock racer and engine builder Sam Gianino back in the early 1990's. They were not nearly as aggressive as they could have been at that time, since the primary objective of the inverted flank lobe at that time was to increase the acceleration and velocity of the valve event to allow more "Area Under the Curve" for increased air flow.   Since we were not Billionaires we requested a slightly milder profile to save money due to valve spring attrition.   Again, this was before the advent and more widespread use of the SpinTron device which ultimately demonstrated the damage created by such camshaft profiles at high lift and RPM.

As you constantly speak down with a condescending tone to anyone with an alternative opinion to your own, please try to remember that MOST members simply cannot  comprehend the engineering aspects of most active components within an Internal Combustion Engine, and instead of your diatribes being informative in a useful manner they typically come across as self serving babble with the sole purpose of stroking your own ego...

As many wise men have said, think before speaking.

[barnett468 418]

13 hours ago, mwye0627 said:

1. I re-read 1969_Mach1's post a few times, and while he did refer to the Inverted Flank camshaft lobe, (that's what we used to call them), I seen absolutely NO instance where he inferred that Inverted Radius cams would be the "best one for all builds etc." 

2. In order to have "Shamelessly Plagiarized" from whatever source, his written text would have to be Verbatim to the source you specified, which it most certainly is not....

3. There  is a LOT of information available on YellowBullet, but nearly nothing I would consider Gospel...

4. As to the rest of your "Dissertation" on inverted radius roller cams, 

5. the vast majority of your rant is totally unnecessary to the typical classic car and muscle car hobbyist that frequent this forum. 

6. ...we ran a few different Inverted Flank roller cams which were all custom grinds specified by our engine builder, Ex NHRA Pro Stock racer and engine builder Sam Gianino back in the early 1990's. ...this was before the advent and more widespread use of the SpinTron device which ultimately demonstrated the damage created by such camshaft profiles at high lift and RPM.

7. As you constantly speak down with a condescending tone to anyone with an alternative opinion to your own,

8. please try to remember that MOST members simply cannot  comprehend the engineering aspects of most active components within an Internal Combustion Engine,

9. instead of your diatribes being informative in a useful manner they typically come across as self serving babble with the sole purpose of stroking your own ego...

10. As many wise men have said, think before speaking.

 

1 I didn't say that he did, therefore, your comment is irrelevant.

2. I didn't say that he was the one that shamelessly plagiarized it because I am the one that shamelessly plagiarized it.

3. So according to you, none of Mike Jones's and Chris Straubs statements on there are "gospel" (accurate). That's extremely interesting since both of them are top level cam designers, but I guess according to you, people will have to find somebody else other than them that might actually know what they are talking about whenever they have an engine and/or camshaft question etc, and buy your comments, you are implying that one of those people would be YOU, so thanks for the tip, I'm sure many here will appreciate it, and the member here that just had Chris Straub design his cam and engine build will see your comments and will possibly ask Chris for a refund and have you do it for him!

Also, please post your credentials that qualifies you to judge the accuracy of other peoples info like Mike Jones and Chris Straub on the yellow bullet site and subsequently make such a statement, because NOTHING you have posted in your two, very boring (imo), essay long, self aggrandizing posts, qualifies you to do so.

4. It is NOT my dissertation, they are statements from other people that I merely copied and pasted.

5. For the SECOND time, it is NOT MY RANT and I did not bring up inverted radius cams, 69_Mach1 did, therefore, according to you, he is the one whom first posted info that you deem useless to the op.

6. I suggest you tell that to Mike Jones and everyone that is running them on yellow bullet so he can stop making them and they can stop using them even though it seems that the engines that are running inverted flank cams are not blowing up left and right.

7. ummm....No, I do NOT, and by the 239 "Likes" I have received here, it is obvious that many others here disagree with your "opinion" as well, which is based upon your assumptions of the "intent" of some of my comments, which you can not know unless you are psychic, which as evidenced by your posts, you clearly are not.

8. I do not need to "remember" anything, and I will continue to do exactly what I have been since I joined here which got me the 239 "Likes" in the first place. If you don't like what I or others post, than don't read it. It's really that simple.

9. That's amusing since it is YOU whom have TWICE now incessantly droned on and on and on and on about YOURSELF. Also, if I am going to stroke something of mine, I can assure you I can find some part of me that would enjoy it much more than my ego would, lol.

10. Thank you for those words of wisdom Ghandi, now I suggest you practice them. Now I have some words of wisdom for you, which are, "Never assume, ask questions instead.".

 

You are not posting ANYTHING that is useful to the op and instead are detracting from his thread with your novel length posts about yourself and how you did this and that and worked for so and so etc, because I seriously doubt that he, or many others here, care. I suggest that if you post anything further here that it be directed at the op and be of some help to him, or at least somewhat related to the topic.

 

 

[ThePoose 37]

On 5/27/2018 at 12:04 PM, 1969_Mach1 said:

My 2 cents.  If this is still the cam being considered, Lunati Part Number: 20350710 Previous Part Number: 61010,  I'd think in a 351W it will have a fairly smooth idle.  Good low end power.  Maybe the lopey idle is not a concern anymore.  Which is fine.  A cam the creates a lopey idle is generally designed for upper RPM power.

 

 

Yes, I decided to trade the lope for better driveability.  

[barnett468 418]

Have you installed the front lifter oil galley plugs yet?

Do you have the right gear for the distributor to use with the cam material?

Since you don't have push rods yet, if you don't know what ones you want to get, I would suggest Howards 5/16" chromoly with .120" wall from summit racing. The thinner wall push rods are prone to flexing more than these thicker .120 wall ones and howards have one of the best deals on them.

 

 

[ThePoose 37]

1 hour ago, barnett468 said:

Have you installed the front lifter oil galley plugs yet?

Do you have the right gear for the distributor to use with the cam material?

Since you don't have push rods yet, if you don't know what ones you want to get, I would suggest Howards 5/16" chromoly with .120" wall from summit racing. The thinner wall push rods are prone to flexing more than these thicker .120 wall ones and howards have one of the best deals on them.

 

 

I have installed the oil galley plugs.

I haven't bought the distributor gear yet.  I haven't even decided on which distributor.  Mainly because I was hoping to get one that works with the EFI for timing control, but I've been reading about technical issues with that feature.

I didn't have a preference on the pushrods, so I appreciate the Howards suggestion.

[barnett468 418]

43 minutes ago, ThePoose said:

I have installed the oil galley plugs.

I haven't bought the distributor gear yet.  I haven't even decided on which distributor.  Mainly because I was hoping to get one that works with the EFI for timing control, but I've been reading about technical issues with that feature.

I didn't have a preference on the pushrods, so I appreciate the Howards suggestion.

OIL GALLEY PLUGS

well, not to put you thru any additional work but I would get new plugs and drill a .020" hole in the center of each one and install those. this increases oil flow to the cam and distributor gears and the timing chain set. the cam and distributor gear do not have direct oiling, and although they can go for 100,000 miles or more on a stock engine they way they are, there is more load on them with the bigger cam and stiffer springs etc, so the additional oil flow helps cool them lubricate them which reduces the potential for premature wear.

the holes will not have any significant affect on oil pressure either. this is a well known common old school high perf engine build trick.

 

DISTRIBUTOR GEAR

I would only run a steel melonized gear. Contrary to what some magazine articles may say or some other people may say, they are in fact compatible with all cam materials. I use the Crane gear but it does not fit all distributors. I would not use a bronze gear or a composite gear because they can wear prematurely although some people get decent life out of them.

Below is the distributor gear on a solid lifter Howards cam in a 550 hp 363 stroker that was removed yesterday and has around 100 miles on it. I used a Crane distributor gear with and the parkerized coating isn't even worn off the cam gear yet.

 

.

 

 

 

[DocWok 30]

On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 8:35 AM, barnett468 said:

I used a Crane distributor gear with and the parkerized coating isn't even worn off the cam gear yet.

 

Hmmm, looks remarkably similar to the picture Fitzy1980 posted a couple of days ago on the Mustang Owners Club of Australia forum of his engine.

[barnett468 418]

8 hours ago, DocWok said:

Hmmm, looks remarkably similar to the picture Fitzy1980 posted a couple of days ago on the Mustang Owners Club of Australia forum of his engine.

That is the exact same one. I selected that cam and the Crane gear for him after the engine his "professional" builder built ate ate the cam gear on his schneider cam, the bronze distributor gear on his msd distributor, the cam gear pad on his new aftermarket block, AND the timing chain set after only a few hundred miles or so.

 

 

[ralt962 11]

The guys at Roush taught me the trick of using an adjustable push rod then using a Sharpie mark the top of the valve stem.  Roll the engine through and see where the roller hits.  They adjusted the length based on this picture but also tweaked it to put the line in the center.   351W with Roush heads.

You want it as close to the center as possible.  No side loading.