Motor dilemma: Freshen vs. Rebuild vs. Swap - wisdom appreciated

[foothilltom 33]

Hi guys, some background to provide context to my questions far below.  Restored a junker 1969 coupe about 11 years ago with my then 14 year old son.  Plain jane, 302/2V, C4.  We focused on body work, interior, paint, etc. back in those days and never really tore into the drivetrain except to remove the motor about 10 years ago to replace a cracked shock tower.  In other words, pretty ignorant about the history of the moving parts.  We made modest upgrades (4V manifold, holley 600, pertronix, just simple stuff).  I would say motor was never "strong" but started reliably and got the boy from A to B.

10 years later, the Mustang is back with me.  Boy has no place to store it but has plans one day to make it his daily driver.   So, my fatherly instincts have kicked in and I'm back to wrenching on the old girl.  The motor has been leaking oil for what seems like years to me (engine bay and undercarriage coated) and I'd say the motor is generally just not running well.  Sorry for the lack of specifics, but I'd describe the behavior as under-powered, poor idle, a noticeable "loping", runs hot, and some gray-ish colored exhaust.  Did the diagnostics and tune-ups that I'm capable of.   It's properly timed, makes good vacuum, and has low/consistent compression (95 lbs give or take all the way around). It runs, but I wouldn't trust it as a daily driver in Los Angeles area (where boy lives, I'm in Northern Cali).

I've pulled the motor and breaking it down to find some "smoking gun".   First oddity was cylinder heads with different castings: "302" and "289".  I asked about that in a separate thread.  2nd surprise was noting the bores are .060 over.  The PO was a doof and had no history on the car, but clearly this motor has been rebuilt once or twice (or thrice).  Timing chain was quite loose.  Bores looked "good" to my untrained eye (no scoring or obvious signs of distress).  Rotating assembly seems good from 10 feet as I haven't pulled the crank or cam and done any close-up measurements.  

With all that...to my dilemma:

I'd like to have confidence in the Stang so my boy can take it with him and Dad can retire as his mechanic.  I'm getting old and it's high time he learn what it means to own a 50 year old vehicle.  So, I'd very much like to have one last rodeo with my son and work his Stang back into daily driver status.  The question is: swap the motor entirely, do a rebuild, or just "freshen" the motor (rings, gaskets, prayers).  The biggest limitation is dough.  I don't want to throw my money at the car as my 25 year old boy needs to experience what it means to own a car.  He's just barely getting by (long story, this generation confuses me) and doesn't have endless money to put into the car.  I'd say the budget is $2000.  I'm happy to donate my time and it gives us a reason to get together.

When I saw the .060 over, my first reaction was "game over".  From what I've read, there's not a whole lot of room left and that size bore may already be part of the troubles.  The heads with different castings might be a non-issue, but it would blow my mind if they are functionally different.

I realize I'm asking this question badly, so I will try to get to the point now.  Based on what I've said so far, would you be inclined to:

1. "Freshen up" the existing 302 (rings, gaskets).  Solves leaks and possibly the low compression and pray that it runs better

2. Rebuild existing 302 in a bigger way (requiring machine shop and all that goes with that)

3. Swap the motor.  Thinking a 351W swap for example.  Make effort to re-use parts as I can.

And as a variant of #3, I'm wondering if folks have opinions on crate 351W from places like Summit vs. shopping around on craigs looking for somebody's awesome project motor that just never got where it was going.

I hope I've provided enough information to at least get some initial opinions.  I just need a hard SHOVE in one direction or another.  I don't want to put several hundred in the existing motor only to be told it's a lost-cause, but if there's optimism that the motor is worth salvaging, I'm open to the rebuild idea.  Thanks very much for listening and hope to get some opinions.

Tom

[mwye0627 44]

Now this is just my opinion and others will likely have differing opinions, but if the block is already 0.060" over bored and the engine is running hot, I would not consider "Freshening" or re-building that engine...

Since originality was not my goal for my car, I chose a different route.

What I have done with my build is to find a low mileage 5.0 HO engine from a 1991 Mustang GT.   I paid $250 for this engine, but first checked it out...   It had relatively clean oil, no sludge or buildup inside the valve covers.  I pulled all of the spark plugs and they were all oil free and appeared to have a good burn color.   I spun the engine over by hand and it rotated freely with no hard spots.

This era of Ford small blocks have High Nickle blocks which are markedly harder and therefore  the cylinder bores stay good longer. This block had no ridge and the crosshatch was still good on all cylinders. I bought a starter mounting plate on E-bay for $15 and did some testing before tearing the engine apart.  First I  drained the oil pan and put 4 quarts of new 10w30 oil in and Cranked it over using the starter.   Using a good mechanical oil pressure gauge I recorded 45 psi oil pressure at cranking speed. I then performed a standard compression test which revealed compression ranged from 180 psi to 155 psi across all cylinders.    I then performed a compression leak down test and the test revealed a range of 6% to 11% leakage, which is great for an cold engine which had not been run for over 3 years...

On an engine like this, you could replace the fuel injection manifold and associated plumbing and wiring with a dual plane intake manifold and a 600 cfm carburetor, and replace the TFI distributor with a Ford Duraspark or other earlier Ford distributor and have a good 225-250 HP engine for not much money.   You could even sell the EFI components and distributor for a few buck to offset your costs...

On my build I decided to use the good short block as a starting point, then I got small chamber aluminum heads for more compression and higher flow, I replaced the stock Hydraulic Roller camshaft with one better suited to my goals, I upgraded the fuel injection with a GT-40 upper and ported lower manifold and higher flow injectors. I use a Ford Lightning 90mm MAF and 70mm throttle body with a custom ECU for a total package that makes 370 HP and is very streetable...

Good luck with your project and keep us all informed!!!

[1969_Mach1 333]

Not much to add here.  One thing is for certain, your existing 302 is beyond rebuilding or refreshing.  The options now are (1) get another worn out but rebuildable motor and rebuild it, (2) try to find something used at a wrecking yard that is hopefully in good condition.  If you go this route, for 302 motors get something that is 1985 or newer, for 351W motors get something from a 1995 or 1996 F150.  Any of those selections will get you a motor that has a factory hydraulic roller cam setup.  (3) Research getting a new or rebuilt crate motor.  I'm not a big fan of this option since quality is all over the place and they typically use the cheapest parts available.

Best of luck.

[barnett468 418]

6 hours ago, mwye0627 said:

What I have done with my build is to find a low mileage 5.0 HO engine from a 1991 Mustang GT.  This era of Ford small blocks have High Nickle...

Please post where you got this info from.

[GypsyR 32]

Unsubstantiated internet rumor, it's all over the place and won't die. Such 5.0 blocks have less wear in the bores simply because they use "low tension" rings. 

[barnett468 418]

are the pistons flat or dished on top.

post a close up photo of the top of one if you can.

if you have dished pistons and 63 cc heads, it will have very low compression.

[barnett468 418]

12 hours ago, foothilltom said:

I just need a hard SHOVE in one direction or another.  I don't want to put several hundred in the existing motor only to be told it's a lost-cause, but if there's optimism that the motor is worth salvaging, I'm open to the rebuild idea.  Thanks very much for listening and hope to get some opinions.

Tom

As was mentioned, your block is junk, period.

You need to decide for yourself how much power you want for whomever will be driving it. Most people rarely use all the power of a stock engine, much less a hi perf engine.

Unless you can drive a used engine you are interested in and do a compression test on it, I wouldn't buy one. Used rebuilds often also have vibration problems.

If you buy a rebuilt one from a rebuilder, get one that has been balanced and has a warranty. If you get a freshly rebuilt one from someone on craigslist, make sure it has receipts and was also balanced.

Also don't buy one that has been bored .040" over. Jaspers builds a lot of them. They are not the best but they are typically at least decent.

For a high perf crate engine, Ford Racing is one good place to get them from. Keith Kraft is another.

If you get a high perf engine, you may need different gears, a higher stall converter if you have an auto and you will probably soon blow the trans up if it is old and stock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fvike 173]

I'd spend a day in a junkyard trying to find an untouched roller engine. 302 or 351W.

[1969_Mach1 333]

3 hours ago, fvike said:

I'd spend a day in a junkyard trying to find an untouched roller engine. 302 or 351W.

I think that would be my first option as well.  Except, here in California, wrecking yards are basically dismantlers.  They do not store cars (very few do), they simply remove the valuable stuff to resell and crush/recycle the remainder of the car.  Most have good knowledge of their motor inventory.  So, basically a lot of phone calls to find the lowest possible mileage untouched roller motor.  In once sense, it's easier than spending days walking through wrecking yards.

[rwcstang 201]

I'd invest in a roller 351w, stronger and can take anything you throw at it. you can build a good street-able stroker motor.

Stay away from Online crates, unless you have extra money laying around to ship it back. Most online stores dont really specify what parts are being installed, could be chinese parts to cover their build cost. not saying all online shops do this, but if you are going to buy a online crate motor, i recommend speaking with them and letting them know what you want and they should give you a detailed list of whats being installed. 

 

[mwye0627 44]

17 hours ago, barnett468 said:

Please post where you got this info from.

Hi Barnett...

I read that on one or several of the Ford forums several years ago, and remembering from my metallurgy classes 30+ years ago I knew that adding a very small percentage of nickel to cast iron improves wearability and increases corrosion resistance.  I thought it was plausible so I never researched it further. 

GypsyR's statement is correct. I tried researching it last night and while I found at least 2 dozen references to a higher nickel content in some 302 blocks, I found no substantiated evidence to prove that as fact.

Having recently rebuilt several 5.0L engines with anywhere from 80,000 to 155,000 miles and finding a distinctive crosshatch pattern still in each of them, I just made an assumption that the blocks were in some way better, but as GypsyR said, the low tension rings are a factor, as well as the use of EFI which lessens the likelihood of fuel washed cylinder walls or severe lean burn conditions which could lead to premature bore wear...

I was quite familiar with the 5.0L family from the 20+ years I spent at Watson Engineering in Taylor, Michigan where our technicians performed the engine mods and suspension upgrades while building the Limited Edition SAAC Mk I and Mk II Mustangs for Ford and the SAAC Car Company.   The following link leads to an article where a Mr. Bob Hahn picked up one of the first SAAC Mk I Mustangs from our facility at a cost of $42,394.   

 http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/1408-1992-ford-mustang-saac-mk-1/

[barnett468 418]

5 hours ago, rwcstang said:

Stay away from Online crates, unless you have extra money laying around to ship it back. 

This does not apply to the ford motorsport or keith kraft engines I mentioned.

[ashleesmach1 28]

I would go with the crate motor

[foothilltom 33]

On 5/17/2018 at 10:51 PM, barnett468 said:

are the pistons flat or dished on top.

post a close up photo of the top of one if you can.

if you have dished pistons and 63 cc heads, it will have very low compression.

They are dished on top.  I'll get a photo if that helps.  So, based on that, would you say 95 lbs compression across the board is relatively expected or indicates something out of whack?  

[foothilltom 33]

On 5/18/2018 at 10:48 AM, rwcstang said:

I'd invest in a roller 351w, stronger and can take anything you throw at it. you can build a good street-able stroker motor.

Stay away from Online crates, unless you have extra money laying around to ship it back. Most online stores dont really specify what parts are being installed, could be chinese parts to cover their build cost. not saying all online shops do this, but if you are going to buy a online crate motor, i recommend speaking with them and letting them know what you want and they should give you a detailed list of whats being installed. 

 

Hey, thanks for responding.  I'm in Livermore and wondering where you might suggest one find a 351w roller (other than craigs, which i'm scouring like a brillo pad).  Have spent some time at Pick/Pull when I lived near Sacto, but I don't know what the hip spot down here in the East Bay might be.  Any recommendations are highly appreciated.

[barnett468 418]

3 minutes ago, foothilltom said:

wondering where you might suggest one find a 351w roller (other than craigs, which i'm scouring like a brillo pad). 

they are quite rare but you can also try ebay.

 

 

[barnett468 418]

15 minutes ago, foothilltom said:

They are dished on top.  I'll get a photo if that helps.  So, based on that, would you say 95 lbs compression across the board is relatively expected or indicates something out of whack?  

well you have around 8.5 compression, so it definitely should be low on a gauge, but it's difficult to convert that to psi without the cam specs and an engine program.

also, never, ever, believe a compression gauge unless it says snap on or mac tools on it etc.

 

 

 

[foothilltom 33]

1 hour ago, barnett468 said:

well you have around 8.5 compression, so it definitely should be low on a gauge, but it's difficult to convert that to psi without the cam specs and an engine program.

also, never, ever, believe a compression gauge unless it says snap on or mac tools on it etc.

 

 

 

Ok, I hear you.  I'm going to invest/borrow a quality tester and repeat along with a more careful leak-down test.  This motor wasn't anything to write home about, but maybe I condemned it too quickly with the low compression numbers on my 70's vintage gauge (of unknown brand).  There was obviously more to the story, but the low compression was the main factor in motivating me to take it out and start this conversation.

[Print Dad 58]

Hello Tom,

Just sent you a message - -I think you can tell I am thinking mostly about

a 351W swap - -just don't know what is in your area.

I think you will get a lot of help here - -I do think long term that the 60 ever spells issues in the 

future- - 

we will talk 

Sam - -aka Print Dad- - Jim

[barnett468 418]

did this engine ever run hot or smoke?

what is the temp in the summer where you live?

[foothilltom 33]

Hi Barnett.  My answers are not great because the Stang was down south for 6 years and I have to rely on what I experienced for just a few months I had it (in late Winter) before I pulled the motor and began this quest.  I would say it was running hot to my way of thinking.  It "felt" hot if you get my drift.  The temp gauge never got into dangerous country.  I wound up flushing the cooling system months ago and thought that helped quite a bit.

(Car has lived most of its life in Northern Cali, some years on Southern Cali.  It can get quite warm here, but it's not desert hot)

It did in fact smoke quite badly until I replaced the carb with a new Holly 600 I had lying around from a previous project.  I attributed the smoking to a rich mixture as the smoke was smelly and greasy (not blue-ish).  To me, not indicative of burning oil but rich.  After the carb rebuild (and general tune-up), I felt like the main problems were general low-power and a "loping" at idle (that didn't exist 10 years ago, so it isn't a cam).  The loping forced me to set the idle up beyond what I'd like (around 900 RPM) just to keep 'er running at various stop lights around town.

The motor leaked a lot of oil, but I don't think it is getting out into the exhaust.  Honestly, the leaking was huge motivation to pull the motor as it appeared to be leaking from everywhere.  Engine bay and undercarriage or gross to an annoying degree, not to mention the mess on my driveway.

I'm not sure how clear I've been since the removal and tear-down, but the only oddities I am sure of at the moment are mismatching but probably not different heads, a fairly loose timing chain, .060" over bores, low-compression pistons.  This week I plan to get into the rotating gear and see if there's any signs of distress or poor-quality build.  

If I were to stumble on a good 351W soon, I would probably lose interest in this 302.  But until then, I keep playing with the idea of just solving any obvious problems on the cheap and taking another whack at running that motor.  As I say, I'm not really interested in throwing good money after bad, but if this old motor just needs rings (I assume the oil ring is doing its job), new timing chain, and some valve work, this is all stuff I could do in my garage and I could probably justify the expense.  But the down-side is I really don't know if I'm just putting lipstick on a pig and would be better off just turning my back on it.

Like I said, I have  time to think on this while I'm looking for a replacement and I'm maybe a bit antsy to get this car back on the road.

I appreciate your questions and advice.

Tom

[barnett468 418]

ok, never trust the stock temp gauge. get a high quality infra red gun or a numerical gauge.

again, i would not use a .060" 302 under any condition and i have been working on these for a living for around 45 years.

if you build it and it runs hot you can install a bigger cooling system but this can cost upwards of $700.00.

if you want more power and can't find a 351 you can buy a 289/302 and build a 331 or 347 stroker.

the heads you have have around 63 cc's. to get the compression up in a small block you can install earlier heads which are around 54 cc's. i have a couple sets of them but they should not be hard to find.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rwcstang 201]

On 5/19/2018 at 7:45 PM, foothilltom said:

Hey, thanks for responding.  I'm in Livermore and wondering where you might suggest one find a 351w roller (other than craigs, which i'm scouring like a brillo pad).  Have spent some time at Pick/Pull when I lived near Sacto, but I don't know what the hip spot down here in the East Bay might be.  Any recommendations are highly appreciated.

Check out CaliforniaFords.com its a online forum with a very active classified section you might find a 351w or if you post that you are looking for one, someone will DM you.

my other suggestion is calling a Machine Shop to see where they can obtain a roller 351w or if they have one in stock. if anything they sell roller camshaft conversion kits.  For shop recommendation, look up RPM Auto & Machine, RPMENG.com. a friend of mine got his 408w built there. Im sure there are local machine shops in your area if that's too far away. 

[1969_Mach1 333]

On ‎05‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 7:45 PM, foothilltom said:

Hey, thanks for responding.  I'm in Livermore and wondering where you might suggest one find a 351w roller (other than craigs, which i'm scouring like a brillo pad).  Have spent some time at Pick/Pull when I lived near Sacto, but I don't know what the hip spot down here in the East Bay might be.  Any recommendations are highly appreciated.

You need to look for a 1994 or newer 351W block, the casting numbers start with F4TE.  The casting numbers are near the starter area.  These are factory hydraulic roller compatible blocks.  I know the 1995 and 1996 F150 pickups used these blocks and are factory hydraulic roller cam motors.  I know the 1994 351W in an F150 was not hydraulic roller cam motor.  I am not certain if the 1994 F150 used the F4TE hydraulic roller block but with a flat tappet cam.  The 351W was also used in some F250 pickups.  The years would be 1995, 1996, and fairly certain 1997.  I am also in norther CA, a little south from you.  I think there are one or two wrecking yards that specialize in trucks in northern CA.

[barnett468 418]

you don't "need" a roller block, but they are mucheasier to find and typically a lot cheaper and a little less to use a roller cam on if you use the stock type roller lifters.