Engine Installation - headers & transmission

[Sean D 31]

Hi All,

I am asking for opinions on your preferred method to installing engines in our 69s. I have new 408w and FPA long tube headers. My AOD trans is already installed and was running before I pulled the prior engine, so it is still installed and everything connected. Is it best to pull transmission and join to engine and go ahead and install headers, then drop in all three together at once? Or should leave trans in car, install headers, then drop in? Or install engine without headers and with trans in car? I read header install after engine is in is a PITA and may have to lift engine anyway. I do have a hoist leveler. 

Thanks,

Sean

[barnett468 418]

keep it simple.

 

put towels on the inner fenders if they are nice

install the headers. you can use safety wire to hang them off the shock towers if needed to get them close to the correct position. you may need to tie or block the rear of them up also.

tap every exhaust bolt hole.

make sure all the header bolts screw in easily by hand.

drop engine in using a tilt bar if possible.

i use remflex exhaust gaskets but in some cases the soft aluminum ones are a good option. paper ones are crap.

 

 

 

[Sean D 31]

3 hours ago, barnett468 said:

keep it simple.

 

put towels on the inner fenders if they are nice

install the headers. you can use safety wire to hang them off the shock towers if needed to get them close to the correct position. you may need to tie or block the rear of them up also.

tap every exhaust bolt hole.

make sure all the header bolts screw in easily by hand.

drop engine in using a tilt bar if possible.

i use remflex exhaust gaskets but in some cases the soft aluminum ones are a good option. paper ones are crap.

 

 

 

Thanks Barnett, pre-fitting header bolts is a great suggestion. Hope the new aluminum heads are good to go, but will check bolt holes first by test fit while engine is out.

So leave transmission in car, get headers into position laying against shock towers, then install engine. 

Question: why not go ahead and bolt up headers?

BTW - here is my engine and engine bay (nicely painted) ready to go in.

 

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

Easy Peasy for a small block. I only have a 1-ton (1/4 ton at full extension) engine hoist so doing the engine trans together was not an option. A friend let me use the 2 post lift where I usually have the car on floor stands and jacks.

 

Before it went in, all header bolts were installed. Tape and plugs were for heat shield/snorkel fitment and not part of the engine install.

Now when I did my 428CJ, I had to hang the headers on the towers, drop the engine in most of the way, bolt up the headers and then finish dropping the engine in. Lots of engine tilting, leaning, and profanity were required to get that and the Hooker Long Tubes in that car.

[jmlay 80]

If your 100% positive the headers will slide in around the aod, and everything else in the way, the go for booting them on before dropping the engine in. But bolting them in as you go may save some headach. Also you might want to remove the tower braces as those are sure to be in the way.

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

The bracing (Export brace in my case) was not an issue with the shorties but may provide problems with long tubes.

[ray1970 88]

It is all a matter of chose.

I don't use ex gaskets just black rtv 

What is not there cant leak..

A little prep work on the headers helps.

My not work for every body.....

[barnett468 418]

I would remove those valve covers.

Again, I put the headers in first, because unless you like to gamble and possibly loose, it is completely pointless to install the headers in hopes that they will clear the shock towers and/or the trans if in fact they do not,  because at that point you are doing the job twice. If you do it my way you will only do it once guaranteed which means you will always be a winner.

.

 

 

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

25 minutes ago, barnett468 said:

I would remove those valve covers.

 

 

On mine? If so, why?

[barnett468 418]

26 minutes ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

On mine? If so, why?

no.

[Sean D 31]

Outstanding suggestion Barnett!

[Sean D 31]

10 hours ago, barnett468 said:

I would remove those valve covers.

Again, I put the headers in first, because unless you like to gamble and possibly loose, it is completely pointless to install the headers in hopes that they will clear the shock towers and/or the trans if in fact they do not,  because at that point you are doing the job twice. If you do it my way you will only do it once guaranteed which means you will always be a winner.

.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

On mine? If so, why?

 

9 hours ago, barnett468 said:

no.

I believe Barnett was referring to my valve covers before installing the engine. And this is another great suggestion as in addition to more space for engine install, it would make it easier getting to header bolts. 

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

9 hours ago, barnett468 said:

no.

Good, I had so much room around mine, and the lifting chains did not come near them.

 

3 minutes ago, Sean D said:

I believe Barnett was referring to my valve covers before installing the engine. And this is another great suggestion as in addition to more space for engine install, it would make it easier getting to header bolts. 

So he was. Again, I bolted the JBA's up before I dropped the engine in. Had so much room with that empty engine bay. My covers are the stock cast aluminum ones, not anything tall like the ones on your engine. 

Rolled the trans under the raised car, then dropped the car down so the trans was fairly close to being in place. Moved the engine over the bay and dropped it down, a little counter rotation for the passenger flange to clear the trans bell housing, drop it in more and rotate it back clockwise and it dropped right onto the motor mounts. Long tubes might have needed more height from the engine lift and then a big tilt to drop the tubes in first behind the towers. As mentioned, getting them around the trans might then be the fun part. I have done this process many times in my driveway with my engine lift, jack stands and floor jack. The only time I hung the LT headers was for the 428 BB. Then jacked the engine around and scraped knuckles as I tightened header bolts.

My installs were with the transmissions that came with the cars, FMX for the 351 and C6 for the 428. So I have no experience working with others that might be of different dimensions. So all of my responses might be moot for your installation.

My buddies in the shop wanted me to drop in the engine and trans bolted together. I know it is done, but I have never done it that way, plus my little 1 ton lift fully extended is only 500 lbs, and the entire engine and trans would have exceeded that.

[GypsyR 32]

How people install and remove engines is really as much personal preference as anything. I like to have the transmission and my long tube headers in and then put the engine in. But if the headers have never been bolted to the engine you are going to use, be sure to fit them outside of the car. There can be variances and it's really easy to grind out a bolt hole a little or whatever BEFORE everything is all in. I like to bolt as much stuff on an engine as practical before I put it in. To do so you kind of have to have had pulled the engine out with as much as possible still attached to it so you already know what you can leave on or not. It's not that big a deal bolting things on though.

[barnett468 418]

11 hours ago, Sean D said:

I believe Barnett was referring to my valve covers before installing the engine. And this is another great suggestion as in addition to more space for engine install, it would make it easier getting to header bolts. 

Yes, it was on yours. It will make it a zillion times easier to install the headers etc. It really is incredibly easy this way. Just plan on 4 hours and a 6 pack or so at a slow leisurely pace then you're done with the hard part hopefully forever.

I also install the motor mounts on the engine before installing it but place them on the body first to make sure they go over the mounts because you can't trust aftermarket parts as much these days.

I also sometimes raise the back of the car around 12 inches from its static position.

I always jack the trans up until it almost hits the body.

 

 

 

 

 

[MAC390 327]

390 with hooker super comps on plus c6 all out together and put back the same way.

[Sean D 31]

On 4/20/2018 at 7:28 PM, barnett468 said:

Yes, it was on yours. It will make it a zillion times easier to install the headers etc. It really is incredibly easy this way. Just plan on 4 hours and a 6 pack or so at a slow leisurely pace then you're done with the hard part hopefully forever.

I also install the motor mounts on the engine before installing it but place them on the body first to make sure they go over the mounts because you can't trust aftermarket parts as much these days.

I also sometimes raise the back of the car around 12 inches from its static position.

I always jack the trans up until it almost hits the body.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Barnett! Do we use Aluminum anti-sieze on the bellhousing bolts? Also, is it okay if these bolts only go in 1/2 inch into the block? I think I read 1/2 inch is minimum. Couldn't find 2 1/8 and 2 1/4 I think will bottom out in block. So I bought 2" grade 8 flanged head.

[barnett468 418]

yes, those bolts will work fine unless the threads in your block don't start until 1/4" or more below the surface.

i rarely use antiseize. it's a great product but a bit too slippery in some cases which can cause the bolts/nuts to loosen some after time. i often use a little wheel bearing grease or similar instead on most of the external nuts and bolts.

sometimes it is easier to use a 1/4" drive on the header bolts to get them close to tight and sometimes a wobble extension comes in handy and maybe a 12 point combination wrench.

 

 

 

 

[Sean D 31]

10 hours ago, barnett468 said:

yes, those bolts will work fine unless the threads in your block don't start until 1/4" or more below the surface.

i rarely use antiseize. it's a great product but a bit too slippery in some cases which can cause the bolts/nuts to loosen some after time. i often use a little wheel bearing grease or similar instead on most of the external nuts and bolts.

sometimes it is easier to use a 1/4" drive on the header bolts to get them close to tight and sometimes a wobble extension comes in handy and maybe a 12 point combination wrench.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, as for header bolts, when FPA build them we used the 3" wide spacing as the Brodix heads are drilled for all three bolt patterns. I also have 1/4" drive bolts.  When I dry fitted them this weekend, I could use ratchet on all bolts, with no issues.

[barnett468 418]

Xlnt it should be a piece of cake.

[skidmarky 50]

You're going to have a hell of a time with the trans already installed. Going to be a pain trying to line the engine/trans up, headers, etc. Much easier to install engine/trans as a combo. I bolt the drivers side header on and drop the whole thing in together, passenger side header is a piece of cake after engine is installed.

[GypsyR 32]

I've been installing engines for years with the transmission installed. It's my preferred method on all kinds of vehicles. It involves maybe a little more patience and back and forth than installing all at once but I sure wouldn't call it a "hell of a time". 

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

13 hours ago, skidmarky said:

You're going to have a hell of a time with the trans already installed. Going to be a pain trying to line the engine/trans up, headers, etc. Much easier to install engine/trans as a combo. I bolt the drivers side header on and drop the whole thing in together, passenger side header is a piece of cake after engine is installed.

 

24 minutes ago, GypsyR said:

I've been installing engines for years with the transmission installed. It's my preferred method on all kinds of vehicles. It involves maybe a little more patience and back and forth than installing all at once but I sure wouldn't call it a "hell of a time". 

I'm going to say that this is a personal preference and what engine, trans, exhaust combo you have. Some combinations just work better than others. Go with what works, what you are familiar with, and in special conditions (exhaust logs, short tubes, long tubes) with past proven methods. My install could have gone in three ways that I know of easier than another way or not, I just went with the way I was familiar with.

[barnett468 418]

13 hours ago, skidmarky said:

You're going to have a hell of a time with the trans already installed. Going to be a pain trying to line the engine/trans up, headers, etc. Much easier to install engine/trans as a combo. I bolt the drivers side header on and drop the whole thing in together, passenger side header is a piece of cake after engine is installed.

I have been installing engines with the trans in the car for nearly 45 years and its a piece of cake for me to do it with an auto trans with the headers in the engine compartment. I have also installed some engines with auto trannies and 4 speeds attached and I have no idea why some people prefer to jack the car way up to remove a trans all by themselves that is already in the car just to reinstall it on an engine all by themselves adding a couple hundred extra pounds to the lifting weight then try to install that heavy, cumbersome assembly all by themselves.

[barnett468 418]

23 minutes ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

Go with what works, what you are familiar with, and in special conditions (exhaust logs, short tubes, long tubes) with past proven methods.

The op has no idea what works so he is not familiar with any of the methods and personally has no past proven methods to base a decision on.