Engine Installation - headers & transmission

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

1 hour ago, barnett468 said:

The op has no idea what works so he is not familiar with any of the methods and personally has no past proven methods to base a decision on.

You did not include my entire message in the quote. 

 

" Go with what works, what you are familiar with, and in special conditions (exhaust logs, short tubes, long tubes) with past proven methods."

[barnett468 418]

1 hour ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

You did not include my entire message in the quote. 

 

" Go with what works, what you are familiar with, and in special conditions (exhaust logs, short tubes, long tubes) with past proven methods."

There was no need to because the op is asking for installation info because he does not know what is best and has no idea what works, therefore, I don't understand how telling him to do what works is going to help him because he obviously has no idea what that is, otherwise I don't think he would be here asking what is best.

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

2 hours ago, barnett468 said:

There was no need to because the op is asking for installation info because he does not know what is best and has no idea what works, therefore, I don't understand how telling him to do what works is going to help him because he obviously has no idea what that is, otherwise I don't think he would be here asking what is best.

Many have posted "with past proven methods". If you are not going to quote relevant information and leave stuff out, please do not quote me at all.

 

Thank you.

[skidmarky 50]

Depends on the situation, since the transmission is already in there is no point in pulling it. If everything is out of the car, it is much easier to bolt the engine/trans together and install it as one unit. In my case ('69 351W, T5) it is nearly impossible to get to the rear 2 drivers side spark plugs and header bolts. In doing this a few times I have found it very easy to put the plugs/header/trans together and drop it in. Beats laying on your back trying to bolt them together. Just my experience.

[Sean D 31]

Thanks everyone for their opinions and help. I have never installed an engine before so I was asking for advice, and am thrilled with the ideas here! Let us be calm and not pick at each other, as we all have information the share. It is up to the person that asked the question to decipher it all and make their own decision(s). 

Engine goes in today, with the help of my father (68) and son (23)! So looking forward to it, not only getting it done, but the time spent with three generations!

I will report back with results, time it took, and hopefully picture with it installed.

[barnett468 418]

9 hours ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

Many have posted "with past proven methods". If you are not going to quote relevant information and leave stuff out, please do not quote me at all.

 

Thank you.

i was not referring to your method. you are missing my point entirely but i may have misunderstood what you were trying to say.

[barnett468 418]

4 hours ago, skidmarky said:

....since the transmission is already in there is no point in pulling it.

Yup.

[barnett468 418]

4 hours ago, Sean D said:

Thanks everyone for their opinions and help. I have never installed an engine before so I was asking for advice, and am thrilled with the ideas here! Let us be calm and not pick at each other, as we all have information the share. It is up to the person that asked the question to decipher it all and make their own decision(s). 

Engine goes in today, with the help of my father (68) and son (23)! So looking forward to it, not only getting it done, but the time spent with three generations!

I will report back with results, time it took, and hopefully picture with it installed.

xlnt.

i would rotate the torque converter 2 full turns while pushing on it lightly to make sure it is still properly seated in the trans then rotate it so the studs are approximately in the same position the holes in the flex plate are. make sure you have the converter drain plug lined up with the drain plug access hole in the flywheel. once the engine is around 1" away from the trans, check the converter stud alignment again. you can use a screw driver to rotate it a little if you can't get your finger in there but there are sharp edges so be careful.

file or sand any burs on the big steel alignment pins on the back of the block then put a little grease on them so they go into the trans easily.

the trans or engine may need to be rotated slightly to get the pins to align. rotating either a little is not hard to do.

be very careful when turning the valve on the hoist to lower the engine as it can be very easy to turn it too much which can cause the engine to drop very quickly. one thing i do when tightening the valve is to tighten it just enough to keep the engine from lowering. if you close the valve pretty hard, it can be hard to open, and when you try to open it, it can suddenly snap open and open farther than you wanted to which is when the engine can drop quickly.

with the trans jacked up close to the bottom of the trans tunnel, the engine mounts will be above the mounts on the body by maybe 1" after you bolt the trans to the engine. once you get to this point, you can lift the headers from the engine bay and see if you can install them if you want. this may make it slightly easier than trying to install them after the engine is all the way down.

use the tilt bar on the hoist to tilt the engine to the same angle as the trans. i look at the gap from the top and from under the car to get it as close as i can.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[69ShelbyGT350H 61]

3 hours ago, barnett468 said:

i was not referring to your method. you are missing my point entirely but i may have misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Sorry to make this public and post it here, but I tried to send a PM to you barnett468, but was informed you were not accepting any. So apologies again to the OP and everyone else for adding more to this thread.

Seems there was confusion on/in my comment 

"

  13 hours ago, 69ShelbyGT350H said:

Go with what works, what you are familiar with, and in special conditions (exhaust logs, short tubes, long tubes) with past proven methods.

The op has no idea what works so he is not familiar with any of the methods and personally has no past proven methods to base a decision on."

 

Obviously, the OP has no past proven experience. I was referring to the advice that was given to him in the forum from that have had the experience with the methods, including what you have suggested.

 

Hope this clears things up, and thanks for understanding.

David

[RPM 1,190]

Thanks David. I too thought you were referring to the OP's past experience, and didn't see anything wrong with barnett's reply. I'll blame my lack of understanding on too many concussions. 

Unlike some forums, this is supposed to be a friendly forum where all can share knowledge and  where newbies aren't run off. I have a hard enough time fingering out what folks are saying to my face, and typing on the internet only makes it worse. Happy motoring.

[GypsyR 32]

I like to try different things sometimes. Once when I was removing the 5.0 from my '67 (in favor of a 351W) I wondered if I could pull it out without getting under the car. Turns out not only could I, I also didn't even jack up the car. Removed the starter and all the bellhousing bolts from the top. T5 and long tube headers that both stayed in the car, T5 resting on a floor jack. That was interesting.

[Sean D 31]

Here you go! not quite done yet, as I want to push it all back another 1/4" to give headers more clearance at the stearing gear box, and idler arm. Right now there is only about 1/8" clearance with both. Pushing back will give a good 3/8". Since we used the ron morris drop mount the mounts are a bit more firm than stock, so might be okay with 1/8" but better address it now while I am at it. Note: to push back another 1/4" I need to modify my existing transmision crossmember as it is hitting the aod trans pan on passenger side and keeping it all from pushing back more. I think best option here is a good old hammer on the tubular section of the crossmember, as it is just barely hitting. Need to dent it in a tad, then repaint. Hate to spend another $180 bucks on a different type of crossmember.

I also need to work out what I am going to do with the engine crossmember as it is hitting about 3/8" worth on the stock oil pan. I have read that you should not shim these crossmembers. Not sure if I want to spend the money on new crossmember built for drop mount or larger oil pans like canton, or just bite the bullet and go to rack and pinion. May run into the same clearance problems with all the racks out there like Randalls. However, I see that the TCP rack makes a big block version that is 1" lower than small block. This might work! Didn't want to spend that kind of money right now.

Thoughts?

 

[barnett468 418]

why are you lowering the engine?

 

you can absolutely put spacers on the cross bar under the engine to lower it. you can even drive the car without it but i don't recommend doing that.

to lower the bar i would make a spacer thick enough to allow from 5/16" clearance to 3/8" clearance between the bar and the oil pan. i would first locate the engine exactly where i wanted it then use equal amounts of flat washers between the bar and the body on both sides until i got the amount if space i wanted. then buy or make a spacer close to the the same od as the bar (which might be around 1 3/8" for example). a spacer that is slightly bigger than the bar is better than one that is slightly smaller providing there is enough flat area on the frame rail for the spacer to sit flat. i occasionally use shaft collars for spacing apps. real hardware stores have them. i would then install one original mounting bolt on the bar then place a spacer over it then measure the length of the bolt that protrudes from the spacer. if it has at least 5/8" of thread on it, it "should" be fine. if it has much less than that i would use longer grade 8 or grade 10 bolts if you can find them with the taper on them. i would also measure the taper angle on the bolt with a protractor then get bolts with the same angle if possible. if you cant find them with the same taper, you can use bolts with slightly less taper. if you need longer bolts and cant find the tapered ones, you can install grade 8 studs then use grade 8 tapered nuts on them like wheel lug nuts.

once you get the spacers you need, you can bolt the bar to the car then tack weld the spacers to the bar in 3 equally spaced places around the spacer then remove the bar then fully weld the spacer. you can also tack and weld the spacers with the bar off but they could get welded on slightly crooked/unsquare doing it this what which "should" not be a problem. torque the bolts to spec then put a thin line on them and the cross member using liquid white out or something then look at the line after 100 miles or so then after 500 miles or so to see if the bolt is loosening.

keep in mind that moving the trans back will change the alignment of the shifter linkage.

you also should check your drive shaft angles after doing this because if they are too great, it can cause a vibration.

if you can not easily dent the trans mount, i would take it off and heat the offending area with an oxy/acetylene torch until it is bright red then whack it with a 3 lb hammer etc. let it air cool afterwards and do not put water on it.

 

SHAFT COLLAR

 

DRIVESHAFT ANGLE VIDEO

 

 

 

[RPM 1,190]

Ya, I wouldn't lower the engine unless it was crucial and then only as the last resort. If you need fore-aft adjustment, Ron Morris has the stock height adjustable mounts. 

I decided to lower my engine for the shaker to fit. I did consider milling the carb pad on the intake. Once it was lowered, I found like you that the oe crossmember was designed poorly. Making a new x member was fun and easy, but only the beginning of several other mods needed with the lower engine. The fan didn't fit in the shroud, so I installed an electric fan. Then relays for the fans. Then a bigger alternator. The the tranny mount needs modified to keep the engine angle in line with the rear end pinion gear. Then...

You get the picture. Choose wisely. 

[barnett468 418]

15 minutes ago, RPM said:

Choose wisely. 

[bigmal 225]

7 hours ago, barnett468 said:

why are you lowering the engine?

 

you can absolutely put spacers on the cross bar under the engine to lower it. you can even drive the car without it but i don't recommend doing that.

to lower the bar i would make a spacer thick enough to allow from 5/16" clearance to 3/8" clearance between the bar and the oil pan. i would first locate the engine exactly where i wanted it then use equal amounts of flat washers between the bar and the body on both sides until i got the amount if space i wanted. then buy or make a spacer close to the the same od as the bar (which might be around 1 3/8" for example). a spacer that is slightly bigger than the bar is better than one that is slightly smaller providing there is enough flat area on the frame rail for the spacer to sit flat. i occasionally use shaft collars for spacing apps. real hardware stores have them. i would then install one original mounting bolt on the bar then place a spacer over it then measure the length of the bolt that protrudes from the spacer. if it has at least 5/8" of thread on it, it "should" be fine. if it has much less than that i would use longer grade 8 or grade 10 bolts if you can find them with the taper on them. i would also measure the taper angle on the bolt with a protractor then get bolts with the same angle if possible. if you cant find them with the same taper, you can use bolts with slightly less taper. if you need longer bolts and cant find the tapered ones, you can install grade 8 studs then use grade 8 tapered nuts on them like wheel lug nuts.

once you get the spacers you need, you can bolt the bar to the car then tack weld the spacers to the bar in 3 equally spaced places around the spacer then remove the bar then fully weld the spacer. you can also tack and weld the spacers with the bar off but they could get welded on slightly crooked/unsquare doing it this what which "should" not be a problem. torque the bolts to spec then put a thin line on them and the cross member using liquid white out or something then look at the line after 100 miles or so then after 500 miles or so to see if the bolt is loosening.

keep in mind that moving the trans back will change the alignment of the shifter linkage.

you also should check your drive shaft angles after doing this because if they are too great, it can cause a vibration.

if you can not easily dent the trans mount, i would take it off and heat the offending area with an oxy/acetylene torch until it is bright red then whack it with a 3 lb hammer etc. let it air cool afterwards and do not put water on it.

 

SHAFT COLLAR

 

DRIVESHAFT ANGLE VIDEO

 

 

 

I have known for a long time that the angles had to be the same but until I saw this video I didn't comprehend why.

Very informative. I have been chasing a vibration and was thinking incorrect flex plate. I will check the angles when I get home.

Thanks Barnett.

[barnett468 418]

14 minutes ago, bigmal said:

I have known for a long time that the angles had to be the same but until I saw this video I didn't comprehend why.

Very informative. I have been chasing a vibration and was thinking incorrect flex plate. I will check the angles when I get home.

Thanks Barnett.

You can determine if the vibration is in the engine or flexplate/convertor or not by doing the test below. If there is little vibration , the problem lies elsewhere like the driveshaft etc, but check the engine and trans mounts to make sure they are good.

ENGINE VIBRATION TEST

To test for engine vibration you can sit in the car then hold the gas pedal down around 1/4 of the way for around 10 seconds, then hold the gas pedal down around 1/3rd of the way for around 10 seconds. If the amount of vibration changes much between the 2 gas pedal positions, or is excessive in general or is "cyclic", meaning that it vibrates for maybe 2 seconds then stops for 2 seconds then vibrates again etc, there is definitely a problem and it can cost literally thousands of dollars to fix if the engine has to b e disassembled to fix it.
 

[Sean D 31]

8 hours ago, barnett468 said:

why are you lowering the engine?

 

you can absolutely put spacers on the cross bar under the engine to lower it. you can even drive the car without it but i don't recommend doing that.

to lower the bar i would make a spacer thick enough to allow from 5/16" clearance to 3/8" clearance between the bar and the oil pan. i would first locate the engine exactly where i wanted it then use equal amounts of flat washers between the bar and the body on both sides until i got the amount if space i wanted. then buy or make a spacer close to the the same od as the bar (which might be around 1 3/8" for example). a spacer that is slightly bigger than the bar is better than one that is slightly smaller providing there is enough flat area on the frame rail for the spacer to sit flat. i occasionally use shaft collars for spacing apps. real hardware stores have them. i would then install one original mounting bolt on the bar then place a spacer over it then measure the length of the bolt that protrudes from the spacer. if it has at least 5/8" of thread on it, it "should" be fine. if it has much less than that i would use longer grade 8 or grade 10 bolts if you can find them with the taper on them. i would also measure the taper angle on the bolt with a protractor then get bolts with the same angle if possible. if you cant find them with the same taper, you can use bolts with slightly less taper. if you need longer bolts and cant find the tapered ones, you can install grade 8 studs then use grade 8 tapered nuts on them like wheel lug nuts.

once you get the spacers you need, you can bolt the bar to the car then tack weld the spacers to the bar in 3 equally spaced places around the spacer then remove the bar then fully weld the spacer. you can also tack and weld the spacers with the bar off but they could get welded on slightly crooked/unsquare doing it this what which "should" not be a problem. torque the bolts to spec then put a thin line on them and the cross member using liquid white out or something then look at the line after 100 miles or so then after 500 miles or so to see if the bolt is loosening.

keep in mind that moving the trans back will change the alignment of the shifter linkage.

you also should check your drive shaft angles after doing this because if they are too great, it can cause a vibration.

if you can not easily dent the trans mount, i would take it off and heat the offending area with an oxy/acetylene torch until it is bright red then whack it with a 3 lb hammer etc. let it air cool afterwards and do not put water on it.

 

SHAFT COLLAR

 

DRIVESHAFT ANGLE VIDEO

 

 

 

as always thank you for the info. I will check the drive shaft angles. I think I read 6 to 8 degrees is best?

I ussed 1/2" drop mounts to give more space with eh air gap intake. Hope not to have to cut hood!

[barnett468 418]

1 hour ago, Sean D said:

as always thank you for the info. I will check the drive shaft angles. I think I read 6 to 8 degrees is best?

I ussed 1/2" drop mounts to give more space with eh air gap intake. Hope not to have to cut hood!

do you have a drop down air cleaner and no choke tower on the carb?

[Sean D 31]

9 hours ago, barnett468 said:

do you have a drop down air cleaner and no choke tower on the carb?

I was hoping to use this filter that matches the valve covers, and the carb does have choke tower , so but maybe I will still have to cut hood. Will dry fit it later this weekend.

[barnett468 418]

Keep in mind if you cut the hood that water can get into the engine compartment.

Post a photo of your air cleaner.

[1969_Mach1 333]

Yes, that intake on a 351W will not fit under the stock hood.  For that reason I can see why the OP decided to use the Ron Morris lowering motor mounts.  Most of those "wonderful" aftermarket parts usually fix one issue at the cost of creating several new issues.  Of course, the mfg's of those parts don't mention that.  I would have opted for a different intake and not lowered the motor.

One possibility with that intake manifold and NOT lowering the motor might be to use an HP style carb without a choke horn.  With an HP style carb a 1-1/2" or so drop base air cleaner might very well fit under the hood.  Remember, in addition to clearance between the air cleaner lid and hood, you also need clearance between the air cleaner lid and top of carb and bowl vents.  Holley recommends 1" clear for that.  Before modifying other items to work with those lowering motor mounts, I would install the stock motor mounts, remove that carb, install the hood, and start taking some measurements.

[Sean D 31]

3 hours ago, barnett468 said:

Keep in mind if you cut the hood that water can get into the engine compartment.

Post a photo of your air cleaner.

correct Barnett! We will see and may need to go with different carb and /or air cleaner. And thanks for advice guys. I also noticed that I have engine and trans pushed back quite a bit. I now have about 3/8" distance from end of trans tail rubber seal and leading edge of drive shaft yoke. See picture. There is still 1" plus of rubber between leading edge of drive shaft yoke and trans. Is this enough/okay? I can probably bring the engine forward about 3/8", but rather not due to electric fan clearance to pulleys in about 5/8".

[barnett468 418]

you may be able to use a drop down base on your current air cleaner and possibly a shorter air filter.

you can cut the choke tower off the carb you have if you want.

ford v6 contour fans and the sidewinder fan from matsons provide the most clearance between the pump and fans.

you only need 3/8" clearance from the fans with the engine mounts you have.

the driveshaft will move forward around 1/2" as the rear suspension compresses so you might want to raise the rear of the car by the diff then mark the driveshaft then unbolt it the push it in as far as it can go and mark it again then measure the amount it can travel forward. if it can move forward 3/4", it "should" be ok. if it moves at least 1" it is definitely ok.

 

the sidewinder below is only 1 5/8" deep.

 

 

[1969_Mach1 333]

When I tried to install an RPM Air Gap on my 69 Mach 1 with a 351W.  When using a carb with a choke tower I could not get the air cleaner lid low enough.  The air cleaner lid was contacting the choke tower and/or choke plate before I could get enough hood clearance.

I've removed the choke tower from Holley carbs in the past for hood clearance reasons.  One benefit of going that route is you can leave the choke mechanism on the side of the carb and still have fast idle when cold.  Many Holley carbs run rich enough so that the choke tower and choke plate are not needed.

The GM RPM Air Gap is the same height as the Performer RPM.  It would have been nice if Edelbrock put that same effort into the Ford RPM Air Gap.