Intermittent ignition issue

[JayEstes 172]

I've had a really weird issue come and go on my ignition system:

I have a Pertronix electronic ignition, but otherwise the engine compartment has new parts and a stock rebuild.  Everything is pretty new.  Maybe a few years old but less than 10K miles.

Everything had been running terrific, but I had a leaky radiator, and decided to replace it.  I had noticed a few times recently that I had a hard time getting the car started after it sat for a week or two.  I wondered if the fuel pump was getting weak, or what, but it usually started after 20-30sec crank worst case.After I had completed the radiator replacement, and repainted some of the idler pulleys, cleaned things up and put it all back together, suddenly, the car would not start.  just crank & crank.  My first thought was I must not be getting fuel, but it's a bit messier to check, so I opted to hook up a timing light and see if I was getting spark.  Sure enough, no spark - at all - out of the ignition system.  At that point, I had no idea why.  "Well, I wonder if the coil is bad" I thought.  I had a known good one here, I'll swapped that to see.  Swap coil - still zero spark.  huh.  "That must mean ignition module... dammit" was my next thought (and it was starting to piss me off cause the stupid things are not cheap).

I cranked it some more, and after a few minutes of trying intermittently for 10-20 sec each try, I felt the battery was getting a little weak.  So, I decided to just leave it for the weekend - I had other plans, I set the battery on a trickle charge and I left scratching my head.

SO, here's the weird part.  after charging the battery back up to full, I decided to crank it again, and it cranks right up.  Runs smooth - no issues.  WTH??  How can this be?  I didn't do anything other than charge the battery.

This would seem to point to a condition where, the pertronix wasn't getting enough juice to get a spark thru the pertronix, but there was plenty of battery energy to crank the engine for quite awhile.  I find that REALLY odd.  Have any of you had this happen? 

I drove the car around for half-hour tonight - it's running perfect.  No pertronix or ignition symptoms whatsoever.  So weird, the whole "no spark" condition  is completely gone.

I need help figuring out what happened there, cause I sure as hell didn't imagine it.  Thanks for any thoughts.

Jay

 

[Midlife 814]

Which version of Pertronix are you running? 

[raider01 11]

I recently had the same problem. Pertronix 2 /and coil about the same age and miles. Intermittent no start condition let it sit for a while and the engine would start. Reinstalled points, 1.5 ohm coil, resistor ignition wire and have not had a problem since. In fact the 302 seems to run better.

[barnett468 418]

33 minutes ago, raider01 said:

I recently had the same problem. Pertronix 2 /and coil about the same age and miles. Intermittent no start condition let it sit for a while and the engine would start. Reinstalled points, 1.5 ohm coil, resistor ignition wire and have not had a problem since. In fact the 302 seems to run better.

Yup, it is sometimes best to leave things as designed because "new" is not always better.

[barnett468 418]

Did you bypass the pink ignition wire?

[JayEstes 172]

46 minutes ago, barnett468 said:

Did you bypass the pink ignition wire?

No I  did not.  They say it’s ok not to, but I know lots of folks say you should.  Didn’t want to change from stock any more than absolutely required because everytime I move away from stock I regret it.

[JayEstes 172]

Ya know I’m not even sure if I put in a Pertronx II or III,  I’ll have to check it

[1969_Mach1 333]

My thoughts on this topic have always been leave the points system in place using good high quality parts, or do a complete conversion to electronic ignition.  I.E., Duraspark setup, aftermarket with distributor and ignition box, or a ready-to-run distributor.  I've never been a fan of the Pertronix stuff that drops in to replace the points.

[JayEstes 172]

4 hours ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

My thoughts on this topic have always been leave the points system in place using good high quality parts, or do a complete conversion to electronic ignition.  I.E., Duraspark setup, aftermarket with distributor and ignition box, or a ready-to-run distributor.  I've never been a fan of the Pertronix stuff that drops in to replace the points.

You know, the problem is, WHERE can i get quality points and condenser?  Crap I get at AutoZone or Oreilly's is low quality stuff.  My son has a 71, and it's still running point / condenser.  I have replace that condenser so many times now (upwards of 5x) that I am frustrated doing that because the replacement parts are cheap chinese garbage.  My best so far has been to buy the lifetime warranty condenser at Oreilly's.  The last one has lasted quite a while now, but it seems that all of these reproduction options are terrible.  Suggestions on parts suppliers?

[1969_Mach1 333]

I'd look at Accel points.  Summit racing carries them.  Back in the 1980's Standard Motor Products had an ignition line of parts called "Blue Streak" that was very good. I use to run Blue Streak points, condenser, and ignition coil.  I had good luck with them.  If you want to go to a parts store I would choose NAPA before any others.  To get any stock type parts from a local parts store I always go to my local NAPA store.

Aside from that.  To switch to electronic ignition, I think the least expensive and very reliable solution would be Duraspark.  NPD sells a wiring harness for that conversion and the ignition module and ignition coil.  Or you can get the ignition module and coil from a parts store.  You can get a rebuilt Duraspark distributor from a parts store or Summit Racing.  I'm sure there are members here that can tell you what year Duraspark distributor to get.

[Mach1 Driver 560]

44 minutes ago, 1969_Mach1 said:

I'm sure there are members here that can tell you what year Duraspark distributor to get.

That's what I'd like to know- for a 351W with a roller cam

[1969_Mach1 333]

Try this one for a 351W.  https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaz-30-2895/overview/make/ford

I think the NAPA part number is simply 2895.  You will need to install a steel distributor gear.  The 351W did not get a factory hyd. roller can until 1995, and those are computer controlled.  Crane has a spring and adjustable vacuum advance kit if you want to recurve the mechanical and vacuum advance.

[69RavenConv 286]

8 hours ago, JayEstes said:

No I  did not.  They say it’s ok not to, but I know lots of folks say you should.  Didn’t want to change from stock any more than absolutely required because everytime I move away from stock I regret it.

I ran a wire in parallel with the pink wire, so I get 12V to the distributor. I can always remove it if I want. We all know Pertronix claims their system will work on ~6V but it's really designed to work on 12V.  I'm kind of a purist who likes keeping true to stock, but I also like my ignition to work..

[barnett468 418]

11 hours ago, JayEstes said:

No I  did not.  They say it’s ok not to, but I know lots of folks say you should.  Didn’t want to change from stock any more than absolutely required because everytime I move away from stock I regret it.

that is not what they say if you call them and ask one of their engineers about it. yes, many get away with using the pink wire but you definitely are far better off bypassing it. its that simple .

 

 

[barnett468 418]

6 hours ago, Mach1 Driver said:

That's what I'd like to know- for a 351W with a roller cam

steel gears can only used on a factory roller cam . you can also use composite or melonized gears. if it is a billet steel roller you must use bronze, composite or melonized gear . the melonized gear is compatible with all cam materials contrary to what some "expert" magazine writers say . crane makes the best melonized gear i know of but they don't fit all distributor shaft sizes because shaft size varies from mfg to mfg . isnt that nice.

[barnett468 418]

the vacuum cans that come with rebuilt distributors are typically not adjustable, so you should get an adjustable can if you plan to use the vac advance then curve your distributor for optimum timing then set the vac can so it adds around 6 degrees of advance and connect it to ported vacuum making sure there is no vacuum at the port at idle.

 

[Bob & Sue 110]

8 hours ago, barnett468 said:

steel gears can only used on a factory roller cam . you can also use composite or melonized gears. if it is a billet steel roller you must use bronze, composite or melonized gear . the melonized gear is compatible with all cam materials contrary to what some "expert" magazine writers say . crane makes the best melonized gear i know of but they don't fit all distributor shaft sizes because shaft size varies from mfg to mfg . isnt that nice.

I have a Duraspark for a 351w with cap, .531 dia melonized gear & the GM HEI module with heatsink all setup and ready to drop in. I'm going to sell it for $75.00 if interested. I have over $175 in it. I pulled it chasing another problem & went back to a New points dizzy I'm done messing with distributors. The GM module is cheap puts out more volts than a Duraspark box.

It's out of a 76 Mercury Cougar.

[1969_Mach1 333]

If you know the cam mfg. of the cam in your motor, I'd definitely double check with them on the dist gear material.  Mine is a Ford Racing cam, they told me to use a steel gear on the distributor.

[JayEstes 172]

21 hours ago, barnett468 said:

that is not what they say if you call them and ask one of their engineers about it. yes, many get away with using the pink wire but you definitely are far better off bypassing it. its that simple .

 

 

Thanks - copy that.

[JayEstes 172]

On 2/27/2018 at 8:09 PM, 69RavenConv said:

I ran a wire in parallel with the pink wire, so I get 12V to the distributor. I can always remove it if I want. We all know Pertronix claims their system will work on ~6V but it's really designed to work on 12V.  I'm kind of a purist who likes keeping true to stock, but I also like my ignition to work..

Can you provide any pictures or electrical diagrams on your implementation?  

[barnett468 418]

42 minutes ago, JayEstes said:

Can you provide any pictures or electrical diagrams on your implementation?  

I don't see any point whatsoever in running a 12 volt wire and keeping the orig pink wire connected because it is still going to look wrong, and unless you have a yellow top coil, it isn't going to be "concours" correct even if you only use the orig pink wire anyway. No need to overthink something this simple imo.

 

 

[69RavenConv 286]

The only point in doing it the way I did  is that once the pink wire is removed it is likely gone forever -- with little or no chance of ever replacing it should anyone ever want to. Most people don't care but it's important to me to preserve as much of the original car as I can, that's the only reason I kept it.  Not concours correct but "period correct" lets say.

Jay, what I did is splice an 18-ga. wire into my OEM harness right behind the ignition switch, where the pink wire originates. Then I snaked it along the original harness in the engine compartment to the distributor, then inside the distributor to the Pertronix unit. The pink wire* still goes to my OEM yellow-top coil. Of course, the extra wire on my coil for my aftermarket tach is also incorrect but if you're clever only a trained eye will spot the extra wire(s) in the bundle.

*The pink wire actually goes to a 3-pin connector where the mating side is green/red.- so it's actually green/red at the coil.

 

[barnett468 418]

3 hours ago, 69RavenConv said:

The only point in doing it the way I did  is that once the pink wire is removed it is likely gone forever -- with little or no chance of ever replacing it should anyone ever want to. Most people don't care but it's important to me to preserve as much of the original car as I can, that's the only reason I kept it.  Not concours correct but "period correct" lets say.

yes, but what i meant was there is no point in connecting them both to the coil.

[1969_Mach1 333]

34 minutes ago, barnett468 said:

yes, but what i meant was there is no point in connecting them both to the coil.

To some keeping the motor looking original is important.  To me, I like original, but if something original is problematic and upgrades are needed, I don't mind a different look.

[Flanders 46]

I've replaced my pink wire with a straight 12V feed (pertronix II) and that fixed my warm-startup issues.  That said, I had to replace my pertronix after ~3 years because it was very intermittent reliability on cold startup.  Got a new one 1.5 years ago and it's been good ever since.  I hope this one lasts longer...