Asbestos Warning - Underbody Deadener

[bigmal 225]

I was reading this article on the weekend and had no idea that underbody deadener contains asbestos:

https://www.tradeuniquecars.com.au/news/1802/usa-import-solution?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20185_02_05_UC&utm_term=list_uniquecars_newsletter

"The item that really stands out as being asbestos positive all the time, is underbody sound deadeners," 

"My advice to Australians buying cars here in the USA, is to avoid at all cost vehicles with any underbody sound deadeners on them. It is also commonly found inside quarter panels and under front guards and it’s all the same stuff. It’s hard as nails and very tough to remove, which proves cost prohibitive," 

"We often find that some brush on sealers contain it, gaskets and materials around the car, but in comparison to underbody spray on sealers, they’re easy to remove and at far less cost."

After having spent days under the car with an electric wire brush breathing in that black crap I contacted Bosscraft and to my shock they said every car they tested with underbody deadener was asbestos. I am going to take a sample for testing to be sure but the amount I breathed in has me very concerned.

Please be careful. I had never heard of this before.

[simplyj 26]

This is a good reminder that asbestos remains deadly and absestos related cancers generally have a latency period of 10-15 years at the minimum, so we can all be lulled into a false sense of safety. Be careful when removing old brake linings, clutches, and gasket material. Also, be aware that some old mufflers contained asbestos as well. 

[Mach1 Driver 560]

In the appliance industry asbestos wasn't removed from products until the mid 80s as I recall. We were in lock step with other American industries at the time.

[Vicfreg 771]

I used to run Environmental Health and Safety for a large company, and this is a huge issue when working on any "vintage" equipment that may have used materials for fire retardant purposes, or insulation.  There was wide spread use of a material called "mastic" which was used in a paste, or adhesive form. There were some non-US companies that actually applied mastic to car body parts.   Jaguar is one of them.

Fortunately, there are many products available for "encapsulation" of asbestos areas.  These of course, need to be applied by professional and certified individuals.

Lots of info here in the US on this topic.  Just one resource here:   https://www.asbestos.com/

 

 

[simplyj 26]

I actually work in asbestos litigation. Been in the field for 11 years now. Never ceases to amaze me what contained asbestos and contamination problems now coming to light with many talc based products. 

Vic, funny you should bring up jaguar as it was only one of several English brands that used asbestos creatively in the post war era to make up for thin and low quality sheetmetal as production restarted.  Asbestos head shielding was also used extensively around exhaust systems and on firewalls.  

My short list of current products I tell family and friends to stay away from that one might encounter regularly nowadays:

- any cosmetic talcum powder, including popular baby powders  

- mineral based makeups

- truck brake linings and pads through 2000

- pre mid 1980’s car brake pads 

- any drywall installed before 1978 (mostly due to the joint compounds)

- vinyl asbestos floor tile  

 

 

[bigmal 225]

2 minutes ago, simplyj said:

I actually work in asbestos litigation. Been in the field for 11 years now. Never ceases to amaze me what contained asbestos and contamination problems now coming to light with many talc based products. 

Vic, funny you should bring up jaguar as it was only one of several English brands that used asbestos creatively in the post war era to make up for thin and low quality sheetmetal as production restarted.  Asbestos head shielding was also used extensively around exhaust systems and on firewalls.  

My short list of current products I tell family and friends to stay away from that one might encounter regularly nowadays:

- any cosmetic talcum powder, including popular baby powders  

- mineral based makeups

- truck brake linings and pads through 2000

- pre mid 1980’s car brake pads 

- any drywall installed before 1978 (mostly due to the joint compounds)

- vinyl asbestos floor tile  

 

 

Are you able to give an opinion on the content of asbestos typically found in underbody deadener on a 69?

[simplyj 26]

I don't know offhand how much asbestos content per weight, however, I suspect it's a relatively small amount of chrysotile asbestos (same as is found in brake linings and clutches).  However, there is no safe level of asbestos exposure and although encapsulated in tar when applied new, the underbody coating would now have dried and become hard.  The best way of removal would be to use a chemical stripper and bag in heavy contractor bags or heat and a putty knife.  If you're doing this in your garage or anywhere somewhat enclosed, you DO NOT want to use grinder or wire wheel and create dust which will become airborne.  Asbestos can remain airborne in sufficient quantities to be of concern for  days or even weeks.  

[bigmal 225]

2 minutes ago, simplyj said:

I don't know offhand how much asbestos content per weight, however, I suspect it's a relatively small amount of chrysotile asbestos (same as is found in brake linings and clutches).  However, there is no safe level of asbestos exposure and although encapsulated in tar when applied new, the underbody coating would now have dried and become hard.  The best way of removal would be to use a chemical stripper and bag in heavy contractor bags or heat and a putty knife.  If you're doing this in your garage or anywhere somewhat enclosed, you DO NOT want to use grinder or wire wheel and create dust which will become airborne.  Asbestos can remain airborne in sufficient quantities to be of concern for  days or even weeks.  

That's what I was afraid of. Was coffing up black crap for a few days afterwards. It has me quite concerned.

[simplyj 26]

15 minutes ago, bigmal said:

That's what I was afraid of. Was coffing up black crap for a few days afterwards. It has me quite concerned.

The black gunk is likely mostly the tar base, still not great to breathe in but not as bad as asbestos.  The problem is the minuscule fibers that create the dust we can see in the air (and that we can't see) which get lodged in the lining of the lung and cause problems down the line.  That being said, the general rate of cancer is slightly less than 2/100 of persons with regular and proximate exposure to asbestos  at levels above background.  Not something to lose sleep over.  

[bigmal 225]

3 minutes ago, simplyj said:

The black gunk is likely mostly the tar base, still not great to breathe in but not as bad as asbestos.  The problem is the minuscule fibers that create the dust we can see in the air (and that we can't see) which get lodged in the lining of the lung and cause problems down the line.  That being said, the general rate of cancer is slightly less than 2/100 of persons with regular and proximate exposure to asbestos  at levels above background.  Not something to lose sleep over.  

I really appreciate your comments. I like that stat. It's the first one I've seen that's not complete doom and gloom. At the end of the day my level of expsoure is what it is and may amount to nothing. Only time will tell. 

But the more we make people aware of the risk in areas like underbody deadener the less chance others will be exposed.

[Midlife 814]

Now you tell me.  I removed all of my undercoating by rubbing it with a rag soaked in gasoline.

I hereby bequeath any residual scrap wiring and Mustang schematics and catalogs to 1869stang.com and any debts to RPM.

May I Rest In Peace.

[Shep69 149]

Thanks for the heads up Bigmal.

A Bit late for the mustang but my 56 F-100 has a lot of this stuff under it so I will need to be careful when getting it off. 

[moodster 55]

If your car had a lot of underbody coating then it was probably put on after 1969.  I'm only aware that Ford undercoated the wheel wells.  

david

[TinMan 77]

For what it's worth. I grew up in a three bay garage owned by my Dad in the 70s. Any time we'd pull a drum off a car, we'd grab an air hose and make this huge black cloud of brake dust, then just walk through it.

My Dad did have two "spots" on his lungs when he was in his late 80s. That's after 50+ years of doing the same thing.

Sure, I'd avoid asbestos but there's quite a few of us that are still around.

[Mike65 475]

1 hour ago, TinMan said:

For what it's worth. I grew up in a three bay garage owned by my Dad in the 70s. Any time we'd pull a drum off a car, we'd grab an air hose and make this huge black cloud of brake dust, then just walk through it.

My Dad did have two "spots" on his lungs when he was in his late 80s. That's after 50+ years of doing the same thing.

Sure, I'd avoid asbestos but there's quite a few of us that are still around.

I started working in the service department of new car dealerships in the late 70's & all the tech's would do that all the time to clean the drum brakes. I worked in the automotive business for 24 years all out in the service department, I have inhaled my share of asbestos dust.

[moodster 55]

The best take away from all of this is to wear masks and gloves when working with chemicals or generating lots of dust. 

david

[RPM 1,190]

I'm pretty sure we can all cite foolish things we've done related to safety and our health of which we've survived. Both of my ex-wife's parents died from pulmonary fibrosis. Both of her siblings have had double lung transplants due to pulmonary fibrosis. They figure it was contracted when the dad did a home remodel back in the 80's with a house that contained asbestos. Be careful out there.

[bigmal 225]

2 hours ago, RPM said:

I'm pretty sure we can all cite foolish things we've done related to safety and our health of which we've survived. Both of my ex-wife's parents died from pulmonary fibrosis. Both of her siblings have had double lung transplants due to pulmonary fibrosis. They figure it was contracted when the dad did a home remodel back in the 80's with a house that contained asbestos. Be careful out there.

That's aweful. It's unbeleiveable how long they kept using asbestos after they found out how bad it is. In Australia they were spraying loose asbestos into house ceilings about 6" thick. It was called 'Mr Fluffy'. It was so dangerous the houses were bought back by the givernment and demolished.

[simplyj 26]

On 2/10/2018 at 7:04 AM, Mike65 said:

I started working in the service department of new car dealerships in the late 70's & all the tech's would do that all the time to clean the drum brakes. I worked in the automotive business for 24 years all out in the service department, I have inhaled my share of asbestos dust.

The industry defensive argument is that the heat generated from braking causes asbestos to be converted to forsterite, a non-carcinogenic mineral.  Most "experts" that have not been paid by the automotive industry don't put quite the same faith in the total conversion, nor do I, but there is some evidence to support it.  

I generally look at the arguments about asbestos exposure the same way as cigarette smoking; we all know people who smoked like chimneys their entire lives and didn't die from lung cancer and yet we accept that smoking is dangerous.  I don't smoke.  I also try to avoid inhaling asbestos.  Statistically, I will likely die from something else and yet I don't feel like rolling the dice on this one.  

Speaking of brakes, I'll leave this little nugget right here... 1966 Bendix memo (brake manufacturer).  

[bigmal 225]

7 minutes ago, simplyj said:

The industry defensive argument is that the heat generated from braking causes asbestos to be converted to forsterite, a non-carcinogenic mineral.  Most "experts" that have not been paid by the automotive industry don't put quite the same faith in the total conversion, nor do I, but there is some evidence to support it.  

I generally look at the arguments about asbestos exposure the same way as cigarette smoking; we all know people who smoked like chimneys their entire lives and didn't die from lung cancer and yet we accept that smoking is dangerous.  I don't smoke.  I also try to avoid inhaling asbestos.  Statistically, I will likely die from something else and yet I don't feel like rolling the dice on this one.  

Speaking of brakes, I'll leave this little nugget right here... 1966 Bendix memo (brake manufacturer).  

I see that is Plaintiff's exhibit BX3. A pretty damming letter......and wow!

[simplyj 26]

Industry knowledge of the hazards of asbestos dates back to the 1930s.  Also, to put it in perspective, the Nazis placed restrictions on asbestos in the 1930s to protect workers (of course conveniently excluding slave labor) while the American shipbuilding and military industrial complex grew extremely rich building the fleet to fight the Nazis out of pretty much steel and asbestos (maritime vessels through the mid 1970s relied heavily on asbestos insulation, gaskets, packing, and phenolic materials - ultimately causing the deaths of tens of thousands of Navy veterans).  

[moodster 55]

My father was one of those who died from asbestos exposure in the shipyard.  He lived about 16 months after his diagnosis.  He kept huge posters of all the ships and submarines he had worked on in a hall closet when I was growing up.  As a child I would occasionally sneak them out and look at them.  My understanding is that it was everywhere on the ships - walls, pipes, etc wrapped in sheets of asbestos.  

[simplyj 26]

43 minutes ago, moodster said:

My father was one of those who died from asbestos exposure in the shipyard.  He lived about 16 months after his diagnosis.  He kept huge posters of all the ships and submarines he had worked on in a hall closet when I was growing up.  As a child I would occasionally sneak them out and look at them.  My understanding is that it was everywhere on the ships - walls, pipes, etc wrapped in sheets of asbestos.  

I'm sorry to hear that Moodster.  My condolences.  

You are correct, asbestos insulation was used extensively as pipe covering, equipment insulation (valves, pumps, turbines, boilers, etc.) as well as asbestos containing gaskets and packing, asbestos insulation on bulkheads, asbestos containing paints and coatings, electrical components, etc etc.  

 

[moodster 55]

Thank you, I rarely talk about it but the memory of my father is often with me.  The larger lesson from this is that many products are dangerous and some hazards I'm sure we haven't even discovered.  Still there is plenty of room to enjoy the hobby and be safe at the same time.  I always keep good dust and organic vapor respirators close at hand.  

[RPM 1,190]

That's just heartbreaking Moodster. Condolences.